RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against?

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zamdad -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/10/2008 10:34:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Solus But there are other alternatives. As I said earlier, the Son of Sam became a Christian while in prison. Had he been killed this would not have happened. quote: Solus That's rather presumptuous isn't it? How do any of us know what God will do in His time? quote: Cloak: Most of those murderers are mentally-ill people who were brought up in abusive dysfunctional where they did not know anything about love, respect or esteem biblical wisdom and right from wrong. Therefore they got wounded and had no role model or good example for them to follow or look up to which eventually led to their perversion. How do you know most offenders are mentally ill, abused children from dysfunctional homes? While many of them are, just as many more come from good backgrounds. What you stated plays right into the hands of the majority of inmates in any facility. Walk through any jail or prison and you will find they're all inoocent; all victims of circumstance or poor upbringing. If we are looking for good role models for would be criminals, where are we, the church? We're no b etter than the rest of the world as we all want someone to do something and expect everyone else to do it, therefore, nobody does it. Which brings me back to my firdt post in this thread. The argument of the death penalty takes our focus off preventing crime in the first place. As to the deterence factor. othing we are currently doing is deterring people from committing crime. IN my years as a probation officer two factors have shown a positie deterrent in the lives of those I've worked with. First is a saing relationship with Jesus Christ. Second is a close loving relationship with another person who is also in a relationship wih Jesus Christ. All the programs we've come up with have done little other than throw money at the fire. The programs tend to be devoid of discipling relationships. Criminals rarely stop to think about the consequences of their actions. They are thinking about here and now. They also think that no one really cares about them or anything else. Have we, the church, given criminals any reason to think that we truly do care?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/10/2008 10:39:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad As to the deterence factor. othing we are currently doing is deterring people from committing crime. The JUST punishment for the sim/crime doesn't have to be deterring people from committing crime to have vaildity... quote: Criminals rarely stop to think about the consequences of their actions. They are thinking about here and now. They also think that no one really cares about them or anything else. Have we, the church, given criminals any reason to think that we truly do care? Their sin is rooted in their own heart and their actions are the manifestation of their heart’s desire. Blaming the church is unfounded and does nothing to deal with the root cause... John

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/10/2008 10:48:23 PM)
Zamdad~ I read in one of my Christian book about a very warm and caring woman who worked as a volunteer in a detention center in the States who thru her love and kindness among one of the most dangerous criminals in the states, turned their hard-hearted hearts into very warm human beings. Love does change people esp. if it's unconditional divine love!

zamdad -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:01:08 AM)
quote: Their sin is rooted in their own heart and their actions are the manifestation of their heart’s desire. Blaming the church is unfounded and does nothing to deal with the root cause... My using the term "the church" is not aimed at the institution. My finger is pointed directly at each and every person participating/reading in this thread. We are the church. I hear a lot of people spew some good verbiage about how to address the problem, but rarely do I see those same folk get out of their pew or off thier couch and make a difference. quote: Zamdad~ I read in one of my Christian book about a very warm and caring woman who worked as a volunteer in a detention center in the States who thru her love and kindness among one of the most dangerous criminals in the states, turned their hard-hearted hearts into very warm human beings. Love does change people esp. if it's unconditional divine love! In your words, what does that love look like?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:22:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad Their sin is rooted in their own heart and their actions are the manifestation of their heart’s desire. Blaming the church is unfounded and does nothing to deal with the root cause... My using the term "the church" is not aimed at the institution. My finger is pointed directly at each and every person participating/reading in this thread. We are the church. I hear a lot of people spew some good verbiage about how to address the problem, but rarely do I see those same folk get out of their pew or off thier couch and make a difference. The bible is clear on how the civil government is to deal with the problem which is why your view of whatever you deem the church to be is completely unfounded. The issue has nothing to do with people here getting off their couch, but of others having no regards for others and talking their life and usually in the commission of other sins/crimes because they refuse to love their neighbor and most of all, fear God... John

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 8:15:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad quote: Their sin is rooted in their own heart and their actions are the manifestation of their heart’s desire. Blaming the church is unfounded and does nothing to deal with the root cause... My using the term "the church" is not aimed at the institution. My finger is pointed directly at each and every person participating/reading in this thread. We are the church. I hear a lot of people spew some good verbiage about how to address the problem, but rarely do I see those same folk get out of their pew or off thier couch and make a difference. quote: Zamdad~ I read in one of my Christian book about a very warm and caring woman who worked as a volunteer in a detention center in the States who thru her love and kindness among one of the most dangerous criminals in the states, turned their hard-hearted hearts into very warm human beings. Love does change people esp. if it's unconditional divine love! In your words, what does that love look like? Nothing but DIVINE, HEAVENLY, GODLY, DEEP, TRUE since her love reflected HIS (God's love)!

JimboFletch -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 8:27:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak The Bible says "Thou shall not kill." No, the Bible says thou shall not MURDER. Big difference. The Bible also states in the NT that God ordains the government to wield the sword. Swords do not discuss and swords do not act as false warnings, they are weapons that execute if used as intended.

rcjames -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 10:34:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: upNORTder quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames As it was done in the 1800's was much more effective; publically and quickly. What about justly? Justly is do obvious that I did not feel to comment on it. Thanks RC

upNORTder -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 10:35:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Genesis 9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. Numbers 35:31 Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death. Numbers 35:33 Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Ex 21:12 Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. Matt 5:21-22 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ´Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.´ But I tell you … anyone who says, `You fool!´ will be in danger of the fire of hell." According to the bible the judgment for murder is death... See Ex 21:12 Luke 23:41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. These words were spoken by one of the criminals who were hanging on a cross next to Jesus. The scripture clearly testifies of the legal conscience that people during all times have had. A death-sentenced criminal confesses that the flogging and the death sentence that was imposed on him were "just". And not only that, he himself felt that he "deserved" death. Acts 25:11 If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die. Here the apostle Paul answers to a governor and is being threatened by the capital punishment. The interesting thing is that Paul does not take the opportunity to speak up against the "barbaric death penalty." On the contrary, Paul acknowledges Rome’s right to use the death penalty and also he is allowed to serve as an example of the universal legal consciousness that has existed throughout all times. Paul is really saying that each and everyone who "deserves" a death sentence should have it imposed on them, even if it would mean himself. John John 8 1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

upNORTder -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 10:38:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: upNORTder quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames As it was done in the 1800's was much more effective; publically and quickly. What about justly? Justly is do obvious that I did not feel to comment on it. Thanks RC Considering the number of people that have been exhonerated years after sentencing, should we risk executing an innocent person?

Bro_Shane -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 10:52:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: upNORTder quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Genesis 9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. Numbers 35:31 Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death. Numbers 35:33 Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Ex 21:12 Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. Matt 5:21-22 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ´Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.´ But I tell you … anyone who says, `You fool!´ will be in danger of the fire of hell." According to the bible the judgment for murder is death... See Ex 21:12 Luke 23:41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. These words were spoken by one of the criminals who were hanging on a cross next to Jesus. The scripture clearly testifies of the legal conscience that people during all times have had. A death-sentenced criminal confesses that the flogging and the death sentence that was imposed on him were "just". And not only that, he himself felt that he "deserved" death. Acts 25:11 If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die. Here the apostle Paul answers to a governor and is being threatened by the capital punishment. The interesting thing is that Paul does not take the opportunity to speak up against the "barbaric death penalty." On the contrary, Paul acknowledges Rome’s right to use the death penalty and also he is allowed to serve as an example of the universal legal consciousness that has existed throughout all times. Paul is really saying that each and everyone who "deserves" a death sentence should have it imposed on them, even if it would mean himself. John John 8 1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." I wish I had a dollar for every time this was taken out of context. I would be a very rich man. This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. They had broken the same law they used to accuse this women by not bringing the man she was caught with. They were as guilty of breaking the same law as she was. Now, if people who murdered innocent people out of cold blood were the ones carrying out excecutions against people who murdered innocent people out of cold blood, you might have a point.

HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 11:10:04 AM)
Against

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 11:14:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak The Bible says "Thou shall not kill." If one doesn't make the disctinction between killing and murder one cannot escape calling a God a mass murderer of men, women, and children... quote: Just imagine if Jesus came again to live with us on earth. While on earth Jesus said the following... Matt 5:21-22 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ´Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.´ But I tell you … anyone who says, `You fool!´ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Yes, Jesus said subject to judgement Not killing. "Judgement" does not necessarily mean by hanging him or by killing the murderer/criminal. It could simply mean that he is no more innocent and needs rehabilitation facilities such prison or detention centres. Hence, there is a Huge difference between what Jesus said "Subject to judgement" AND Murdering/Killing/Hanging someone because he murdered somebody else. While Jesus was being crucified on the Cross, He showed mercy and forgiveness and total restoration to one of the thieves beside Him, while He did not do that to the other thief who did Not repent.

Tinkerbell_ -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 11:19:46 AM)
I'm for it.

Jhud -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:23:50 PM)
quote: Yes, Jesus said subject to judgement Not killing. "Judgement" does not necessarily mean by hanging him or by killing the murderer/criminal. It could simply mean that he is no more innocent and needs rehabilitation facilities such prison or detention centres. Hence, there is a Huge difference between what Jesus said "Subject to judgement" AND Murdering/Killing/Hanging someone because he murdered somebody else. While Jesus was being crucified on the Cross, He showed mercy and forgiveness and total restoration to one of the thieves beside Him, while He did not do that to the other thief who did Not repent. Execution is the penalty for the judgment that someone is guilty of a capitol crime. Jesus never disputed this penalty, nor did Paul. Indeed, it is simply wrong to apply what are commands about personal behavior to the government's penalty for various crimes. If we were required to do so, not only would the death penalty be eliminated, but we couldn't prosecute theft, assault, or forced labor. In short, such an interpretation is an invitation to anarchy.

Doc65 -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:24:23 PM)
quote: The death penalty does nothing to deter crime. Sure keeps those who are executed from committing another crime... quote: Original: Cloak These people are poor and victims. They have been misled, misguided, and miseducated by their misled well-meaning parents. Most of those murderers are mentally-ill people who were brought up in abusive dysfunctional homes and families where they did not know anything about love, respect or self-esteem or biblical wisdom and right from wrong. Therefore, they got wounded and had no role model or good example for them to follow or look up to which eventually led to their perversion. This argument is, at best, disingenuous - how do you explain the tens of, hundreds of thousands, probably millions who fit your description who do not commit such heinous crimes? How do you account for individuals who have all the "perks" of life, society, of all that they have been given or had access to, who commit horrendous atrocities? Ted Bundy, Dayton LeRoy Rogers, Gacy, Marquette, etc. all had a "normal upbringing... The arguments you have presented just simply do not hold water... Also, the argument that holding them indefinitely in prison also doesn't work as many of them continue to kill while in prison...

Doc65 -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:27:07 PM)
quote: The Bible says "Thou shall not kill." Eeeehhhhh!!!! Wrong. It says "thou shalt not murder"....

JimboFletch -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:29:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Doc65 quote: The death penalty does nothing to deter crime. Sure keeps those who are executed from committing another crime... quote: Original: Cloak These people are poor and victims. They have been misled, misguided, and miseducated by their misled well-meaning parents. Most of those murderers are mentally-ill people who were brought up in abusive dysfunctional homes and families where they did not know anything about love, respect or self-esteem or biblical wisdom and right from wrong. Therefore, they got wounded and had no role model or good example for them to follow or look up to which eventually led to their perversion. This argument is, at best, disingenuous - how do you explain the tens of, hundreds of thousands, probably millions who fit your description who do not commit such heinous crimes? How do you account for individuals who have all the "perks" of life, society, of all that they have been given or had access to, who commit horrendous atrocities? Ted Bundy, Dayton LeRoy Rogers, Gacy, Marquette, etc. all had a "normal upbringing... The arguments you have presented just simply do not hold water... Also, the argument that holding them indefinitely in prison also doesn't work as many of them continue to kill while in prison... And don't forget Jeffrey Dahmer, who was killed, not by the state, but by Christopher Scarver, another convicted murderer.

Doc65 -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:33:47 PM)
quote: Criminals need psychological Christian counseling. They need love, acceptance, re-education. Soooo, have you ever worked among violent offenders? Ever lived among them? The majority are experts at getting inside the head of those who come to help them and cause them to be seen as the victim rather than truly repenting of their crime and their sin... quote: Matt. 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves I believe your words show that you might have the dove part down but you need to work on the snake bit, since you'll be headed into a pit of vipers if you choose to do prison ministry or, God forbid, end up as a resident...

Doc65 -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:34:57 PM)
quote: And don't forget Jeffrey Dahmer, who was killed, not by the state, but by Christopher Scarver, another convicted murderer. Thanks Jimbo, forgot about him...

JimboFletch -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:41:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Doc65 quote: And don't forget Jeffrey Dahmer, who was killed, not by the state, but by Christopher Scarver, another convicted murderer. Thanks Jimbo, forgot about him... Scarver got an additional 2 life sentences for killing Dahmer and another man, Jesse Anderson. I guess that taught Mr. Scarver a lesson he won't soon forget...

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:50:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Doc65 quote: Criminals need psychological Christian counseling. They need love, acceptance, re-education. Soooo, have you ever worked among violent offenders? Ever lived among them? The majority are experts at getting inside the head of those who come to help them and cause them to be seen as the victim rather than truly repenting of their crime and their sin... If you read Carefully my post...I am talking about criminals who are WISE & HUMBLE who realized the harm they had caused to others, Not about those arrogant, rebellious ones who refuse to face the truth and prefer to live in denial.

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 12:53:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: Yes, Jesus said subject to judgement Not killing. "Judgement" does not necessarily mean by hanging him or by killing the murderer/criminal. It could simply mean that he is no more innocent and needs rehabilitation facilities such prison or detention centres. Hence, there is a Huge difference between what Jesus said "Subject to judgement" AND Murdering/Killing/Hanging someone because he murdered somebody else. While Jesus was being crucified on the Cross, He showed mercy and forgiveness and total restoration to one of the thieves beside Him, while He did not do that to the other thief who did Not repent. Execution is the penalty for the judgment that someone is guilty of a capitol crime. Jesus never disputed this penalty, nor did Paul. Indeed, it is simply wrong to apply what are commands about personal behavior to the government's penalty for various crimes. If we were required to do so, not only would the death penalty be eliminated, but we couldn't prosecute theft, assault, or forced labor. In short, such an interpretation is an invitation to anarchy. This is Not biblical/scriptural!

zamdad -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 1:37:53 PM)
quote: The bible is clear on how the civil government is to deal with the problem which is why your view of whatever you deem the church to be is completely unfounded. The issue has nothing to do with people here getting off their couch, but of others having no regards for others and talking their life and usually in the commission of other sins/crimes because they refuse to love their neighbor and most of all, fear God... John, sometimes I get the impression you simply like to hear yourself talk. Yes, the same can be said about me. quote: Cloak: Nothing but DIVINE, HEAVENLY, GODLY, DEEP, TRUE since her love reflected HIS (God's love)! That did not answer the question I asked. It's Christianese to the poor in spirit and downtrodden. What does His love look like? quote: If you read Carefully my post...I am talking about criminals who are WISE & HUMBLE who realized the harm they had caused to others, Not about those arrogant, rebellious ones who refuse to face the truth and prefer to live in denial. How would you know which ones are wise and humble as opposed to those who are in denial? I'm getting the impresion that your perception of those in prison/jail comes from the media. While our correctional facilities do hold some very godly men and women, they hold way many more who profess Christ as it brings some form of personal gain. Nothing about thier character is transformed, they have simply learned how to use others who want to help. They learn the language of Chritianese and how to convince people who will not pry into their personal lives to believe that they truly are innocent, misunderstood victims.

Lapidoth -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 1:48:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames I am for the death penality, but not in its present form. There should be a 3 or 6 month absolute limit for the death penality to be imposed after sentencing. The lengthly waits (15 to 25 years) voids the deterrent effect of the penalty. As it was done in the 1800's was much more effective; publically and quickly. Thanks RC I have always and will always be for the death penalty. That was the first governmental law established from the Ark of Noah. I agree it should swift and just. Just like they deserve a swift trial, not be locked up indefinitely until someone decides to try them, they deserve and deserve a quick sentence. Our present system is a mockery to justice. Whether we are pro or con. Others always use the plea, "What if you were innocent and got caught up in it?" I said, then I would be one who fell through the cracks of what we have. There is a difference in the command: "Thou shalt not murder." And our loose rendering of 'thou shalt not kill.' But society has always been governed by our ignorance and bias. Nothing new under the sun. Capital punishment is a true regard for life. The life that was taken by the murderer. We have such misguided compassion for a murderer, yet nada for the unborn children murdered every day.

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