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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 1:59:25 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
This is Not biblical/scriptural!
It's completely Scriptural.
What is not Scriptural is using the Word of God to advocate anarchy.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 2:05:56 PM
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Solus
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Not having the death penalty is anarchy? Ok. Better than Fascism.
I think we have a bad system in America. The life imprisonment system in America is wrong because it is almost rewards them. The death penalty offers no chance for them to change their ways. As I keep saying, we need to completely change the system as they have in Italy. A smallc dark, cold cell where you are alone. That is truly punishment and they still have a chance to change their ways.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 2:19:15 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Solus
Not having the death penalty is anarchy? Ok. Better than Fascism.
I think we have a bad system in America. The life imprisonment system in America is wrong because it is almost rewards them. The death penalty offers no chance for them to change their ways. As I keep saying, we need to completely change the system as they have in Italy. A smallc dark, cold cell where you are alone. That is truly punishment and they still have a chance to change their ways.
Hmmm...Spend a few years in dingy solitude and then be free, or die.
I pick solitude. Hey, I could always go back to crime and hurt more people.....
Sorry, doesn't make sense to me. They have plenty of time to repent and change their ways - right up to the point when the switch is flipped.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 2:26:39 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1704
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While this does not address the OP directly, it does support my contention that the argument over the morality of the death penalty detracts from the great commission to go and make disciples of men. If we, as individuals, lived out the great commission, we would not have the highest incarceration rate in the world nor would we have such a high rate of recidivism.
Fred is a man in his mid 90’s. He has been convicted of having sex with children. His conviction is for one girl whom he molested for a period of eight years. His time in sex offender treatment revealed that he had molested his granddaughter and numerous other children in his lifetime. Fred is a devout Christian man. He can spew scripture at will and would often interrupt treatment sessions by saying he was praying for his PO or the therapist.
All those in Fred’s personal life are supportive of him and think the system has been too hard on him. They refuse to believe that this little old man who regularly attends church and spreads joy to everyone he meets could ever harm a small child. They all comment about how wonderful he is with the kids, how the kids just love him. They justify their denial by thinking that a man in his 90’s is most likely no longer capable of performing sexually. Therefore, he has to be harmless. Yet, Fred reports that he frequently masturbates to images of children.
But who, within his church family, is going to take the time to ask him those hard questions? What child is going to report Fred who has the respect and admiration of the adults? Who is going to believe the child that says that Fred told him/her to keep a secret? Especially if that child is a troubled child with a history of inappropriate conduct?
Lee is a man currently sitting in prison for molesting his girlfriends children. Lee was raised in a home where the family went to church each and every Sunday. He knows his Bible well and has served as a Sunday School teacher. Some of Lee’s problems can be connected to his upbringing as his parents engaged in sexual activity with all the kids and supported this behavior with twisted scripture.
Before being sent to prison, Lee had what appeared to be a positive community support network in place. His church was aware of his conviction. He was allowed to continue serving as an usher. At the same time he was serving as an usher, he was in a cohabitation relationship with a woman he was not married to. It was later revealed that he had a string of girlfriends he was having sex with in addition to the woman he was living with. In speaking with his fellow church attendees, none of them believed that he could be guilty of molesting children. After all, he’s just too nice of a guy. He is there to help others whenever they need it. He is a master mechanic and often tends to the vehicle of the elderly and widows or single mothers. It wasn’t until after he returned to court for his fifth probation violation that several of these widows and single mothers cam forward and reported they had been having sexual relations in exchange for work done.
John is the son of a pastor. He also knows his Bible well. He is fluent in Christianese. John is a meth addict and has turned to sales of meth to support his habit. He also happens to have been convicted of a sex crime. John spoke to me about how he had turned his life back over to God and that he really wanted to go to a Christian treatment program instead of prison. As we spoke about his aftercare following release whether from prison or treatment, it became clear to this trained professional that John had no intention of changing anything about his character. He was relying on the fact that he could enter a church, profess to be living differently and count on the fact that no one from the congregation would invade his space to see if the professed changes equaled a man who walked his talk.
In 16 years of corrections, I have worked with countless men and women. Each case is different. Each has its own special needs and circumstances. Each needs the person of Christ revealed to them and each needs to have a Jesus with skin on. Where the harvest is plentiful, the workers are few. We have programmed everything so that we no longer feel we have a personal responsibility to live out the great commission. We have to treat each case as an individual and be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Predators live among us and we, all too often, enable them by ignoring our gut or dismissing the little things that are characteristic of a sick heart.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 2:59:19 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 283
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
I have always and will always be for the death penalty.
That was the first governmental law established from the Ark of Noah.
At that point there was no government, so I'm not sure the statement in question (Genesis 9:6, I presume?) qualifies as a governmental law so much as it doesn't really specify who is the one responsible for the second bloodshedding.
quote:
I agree it should swift and just. Just like they deserve a swift trial, not
be locked up indefinitely until someone decides to try them, they deserve
and deserve a quick sentence.
If we applied this logic, I suspect we would be killing innocent people, whose innocence was only proven after considerable delay, e.g. by newly examined DNA evidence.
quote:
Our present system is a mockery to justice. Whether we are pro or con.
I'll agree with that, though not just for reasons of swiftness. For one thing, from what I've seen the conviction and sentencing guidelines for capital punishment have in some places become intricate enough that most people who can afford not to be executed generally aren't. The Israelite law, though I admit we don't implement it in national law today, is pretty clear on the moral issue of not letting the rich or the poor be judged with favoritism because of their condition.
quote:
Others always use the plea, "What if you were innocent and got caught up
in it?" I said, then I would be one who fell through the cracks of what we have.
That's true, but carrying out "quick sentences" isn't really going to solve that problem. How many innocent people may we kill, i.e. let "fall through the cracks," i.e. murder, before the system becomes wrong?
quote:
There is a difference in the command: "Thou shalt not murder."
And our loose rendering of 'thou shalt not kill.'
But society has always been governed by our ignorance and bias.
Nothing new under the sun.
True, that.
quote:
Capital punishment is a true regard for life. The life that was taken by the murderer.
We have such misguided compassion for a murderer, yet nada for the unborn children
murdered every day.
I don't lack compassion for anyone who is killed. I'm not sure who you mean by "we."
All humans are sinful. In my opinion a true regard for life acknowledges that nothing we do or don't do detracts from the fact that we are still human lives.
The Romans 13-style arguments are somewhat difficult in our context because when Paul wrote, he was writing to Christians as though the government was something else, something not Christian at all, and he well knew that the government was capable of using the sword for more than just protection from evil-doers, seeing as how he was persecuted by that government rather severely. The question we are now trying to answer seems to be what Christians should do if they are in the place of government, and that question Romans 13 does not really answer.
The verse certainly seems to leave open permission for a government to use force, even lethal force, but it does not say what a Christian should do in such a situation. In 1 Corinthians 6, Paul notes that while everything may be "permissible," not everything is beneficial or advisable. Personally, I believe that both Paul's and in fact Jesus's admonition to love even my enemies, and to repay evil with good, means that I may not kill a murderer as he or she has killed someone else. The fact that I don the cloak of the state does not give me the power to do something that as an individual servant of Christ I would not already do, and since I would not kill someone in the service of Christ, I certainly would not kill someone in the service of one of the powers of this world.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 3:28:06 PM
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Solus
Posts: 100
Joined: 5/27/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
quote:
ORIGINAL: Solus
Not having the death penalty is anarchy? Ok. Better than Fascism.
I think we have a bad system in America. The life imprisonment system in America is wrong because it is almost rewards them. The death penalty offers no chance for them to change their ways. As I keep saying, we need to completely change the system as they have in Italy. A smallc dark, cold cell where you are alone. That is truly punishment and they still have a chance to change their ways.
Hmmm...Spend a few years in dingy solitude and then be free, or die.
I pick solitude. Hey, I could always go back to crime and hurt more people.....
Sorry, doesn't make sense to me. They have plenty of time to repent and change their ways - right up to the point when the switch is flipped.
You don't understand how it works. It completely breaks them down. They are in a cell that is to small to lie in or stand up. You have little to no human contact for say five years. You have a bucket for a toilet which is emptied every two weeks. Look them up. The convisted will do anything to get out. When they are released they would not do anything that would get them thrown back into their cell.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 3:40:44 PM
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Solus
Posts: 100
Joined: 5/27/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Or it would completely render them insane and cause them to commit worse crimes. 
No it doesn't. This practice is done in Italy. I'm not sure but I think they go to some type of therapy afterwards. Basically they are being "reprogrammed" into good citizens.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 4:00:35 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 4692
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
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Folks!
Did you know that We are ALL like those prisoners when we first came to Christ. Weren't we Prisoners and Captives confined and caged in all sorts of sins, transgressions, dirts, filths...etc and it's ONLY BY God's Mercy, Forgiveness and Grace that we have been set free from the PRISON OF SIN when Jesus paid for the price of our SIN on the Cross!
How can you deny to extend what you have received from Your Heavenly Father the very same thing He extended generously to you????
If your heart did not change when you received Christ's love, do you expect people to see Christ in you? What is the difference between us and the rest of the world?
Why not...Extend the same generosity and grace you received from God to those poor victimized prisoners. Mind you many of them are innocent and victims of some unlucky circumstances!
God has been Awesomely Generous toward us. Likewise, we should behave toward those sinned prisoners! Otherwise the world will NOT distinguish us from the rest and will not find any thing special and unique about Christians and the Christians faith.
Be Merciful just like Your Heavenly Father has been merciful and graceful toward you!
< Message edited by Cloak -- 6/11/2008 5:29:29 PM >
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 4:12:31 PM
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Solus
Posts: 100
Joined: 5/27/2008
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Some of them may be innocent. And I am against the death peanlty. But I would hardly call them "poor" and "victimized".
< Message edited by Solus -- 6/11/2008 4:24:29 PM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 4:13:38 PM
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elastic
Posts: 2459
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: NYC
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quote:
Why not...Extend the same generosity and grace you received from God to those poor victimized prisoners.
ok, that statement made me throw up just a little bit in my mouth. poor victimized prisoners...HAH!
what about the victims of the prisoners?
just because we have received grace from our heavenly father after coming to Christ, it DOES NOT MEAN that we will not have to face consequences for the sins we have committed in our past. The consequence from having sex before marriage could be pregnancy or an STD. Just because we come to Christ after that sin has been committed does not mean that God removes those consequences from us.
If you murder someone, even if you are christian or not, you know that it is illegal and that the consequences of your actions will be imprisonment or death (if you are caught). The fact that you ignore those consequences and choose to murder someone anyway just shows that you do not care about the consequences...until..you have to face them…. and then you become the 'victim', or you find religion and think that just because you have 'changed' you should be shown leniency. the fact is, if there is really a change in you, you will want to finish your sentence and face the consequences, not try to weasel your way out of them by telling people to act graciously towards you. if you are a true christian, you know that your reward is in heaven and not on this earth. i should think that "for me to live is Christ and to die is gain" would be a welcome slogan to the truly reformed convict.
and by the way, i am for the death penalty.
< Message edited by elastic -- 6/11/2008 4:20:27 PM >
_____________________________
Whoever said "Nothing is Impossible" never tried slamming a revolving door.
 I Stand with Israel!
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 4:17:41 PM
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Carleejoan
Posts: 933
Joined: 9/1/2007
From: Canada
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Well today on Canadian TV we had to watch known predator rapist, and murderor Paul Bernardo while being questioned if he had another murder of a woman who went missing during his crime spree. Of course he enjoyed the whole media circus and even expressed it to be "unfair" to question him in this way thus spoiling his precious reputation or something along that line. These girls' dear families whom he murdered didn't get that kind of airtime or a life to be enjoyed. This guy continues to be arrogant and unrepentant for his crimes. He would do it again and again. So why do us taxpayers have to pay his way?? I'm sorry I didn't think I'd feel so strongly about this. He needs to reap the consequences.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 4:19:19 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
How can you deny to extend what you have received from Your Heavenly Father the very same thing He extended generously to you????
You mean like to people that murder a whole family just for the "fun" of it OR seduce and murder 30 or so boys just to satisfy a lust OR murder a wife, children, and mother so he could start over - ALL stopped because of the efforts of the authorities and citizens, not because of sorrow and/or repentance.
I cannot speak for you, but I repented of my sins because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God, not because of a human judge condemning me for taking human life without remorse.
Do you understand what "repentance" means?
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 4:35:33 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4290
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
the fact is, if there is really a change in you, you will want to finish your sentence and face the consequences, not try to weasel your way out of them by telling people to act graciously towards you. if you are a true christian, you know that your reward is in heaven and not on this earth. i should think that "for me to live is Christ and to die is gain" would be a welcome slogan to the truly reformed convict.
Exactly. Anyone remember Karla Faye Tucker?
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 4:41:30 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Not having the death penalty is anarchy? Ok. Better than Fascism.
I think we have a bad system in America. The life imprisonment system in America is wrong because it is almost rewards them. The death penalty offers no chance for them to change their ways. As I keep saying, we need to completely change the system as they have in Italy. A smallc dark, cold cell where you are alone. That is truly punishment and they still have a chance to change their ways.
No, conflating our responsibilities as believers with the responsibility of the civil government is an invitation to anarchy. We don't want our government to 'turn the other cheek' or 'walk the extra mile'; we want it to punish evil - and for it not to do so is an invitation to anarchy.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 4:57:38 PM
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Solus
Posts: 100
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Not having the death penalty is anarchy? Ok. Better than Fascism.
I think we have a bad system in America. The life imprisonment system in America is wrong because it is almost rewards them. The death penalty offers no chance for them to change their ways. As I keep saying, we need to completely change the system as they have in Italy. A smallc dark, cold cell where you are alone. That is truly punishment and they still have a chance to change their ways.
No, conflating our responsibilities as believers with the responsibility of the civil government is an invitation to anarchy. We don't want our government to 'turn the other cheek' or 'walk the extra mile'; we want it to punish evil - and for it not to do so is an invitation to anarchy.
I would rather have anarchy than a fascist government. And I am not advocating that the government turn the other cheek, but rather to punish the criminals by actually making them suffer and then rehabilitate them.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 5:00:27 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
I would rather have anarchy than a fascist government. And I am not advocating that the government turn the other cheek, but rather to punish the criminals by actually making them suffer and then rehabilitate them.
I am not sure how the death penalty properly utilized could be described as 'fascist'?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 5:05:03 PM
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Solus
Posts: 100
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I would rather have anarchy than a fascist government. And I am not advocating that the government turn the other cheek, but rather to punish the criminals by actually making them suffer and then rehabilitate them.
I am not sure how the death penalty properly utilized could be described as 'fascist'?
Sorry. I should have phrased that better. I just meant that in general I would prefer anarchy to fascism. I am also having trouble seeing how life imprisonment could be described as anarachist.
< Message edited by Solus -- 6/11/2008 5:21:45 PM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 5:17:15 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Sorry. Not what I meant. I just meant that in general I would prefer anarchy to fascism. I am also having trouble seeing how life imprisonment could be described as anarachist.
I didn't say it could be. But 'life imprisonment' is simply another form of civil penalty - I don't think it negates the rightness of execution.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 7:20:18 PM
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Doc65
Posts: 277
Joined: 1/11/2008
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quote:
If your heart did not change when you received Christ's love, do you expect people to see Christ in you? What is the difference between us and the rest of the world?
You apparently have some wires crossed, my dear friend. If you are speaking of forgiveness for sins committed, that's one thing and I have no issue with that. If you are speaking about commuting another's sins so they are freed of the consequences of their actions, as noted by an earlier posting, you are speaking of something entirely different. It seesm that you have the idea that we must forgive and forget...we are commanded to forgive others but nowhere are we told to forget; even God, in forgiving the sins of Israel and His people, never forgot their sins.
Maybe in a perfect world, without sin and sinful men, would we be able to believe and know who among those "victimized prisoners" are truly repentant, but words like honey drip from the mouths of those who would deceive...
And, you never did answer my question as to whether you have ever ministered to, worked among or lived among them in their world (behind bars)? Having done all three, I have to say that a reality check is defintely in need here...let those doors slam shut behind you and live among those you seem to think are so poor, helpless and victimized and I think you eyes will be opened to wisdom... 
quote:
He says to himself, "God has forgotten;
he covers his face and never sees."
Arise, LORD! Lift up your hand, O God.
Do not forget the helpless.
Why does the wicked man revile God?
Why does he say to himself,
"He won't call me to account"? Psalm 10:11-13
< Message edited by Doc65 -- 6/11/2008 7:28:46 PM >
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 7:44:11 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1704
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
You don't understand how it works. It completely breaks them down. They are in a cell that is to small to lie in or stand up. You have little to no human contact for say five years. You have a bucket for a toilet which is emptied every two weeks. Look them up. The convisted will do anything to get out. When they are released they would not do anything that would get them thrown back into their cell.
Solus, are you under the impression that we don't use solitary confinement for many prisoners here in the US? While it may not be as drastic as other countries, the results often add to or bring on mental health problems. And, most of our prisoners are going to be back on the streets. How does isolation cure them. As has already been addressed, it does not serve as a deterrent.
I wrote this in my blog some time ago. I think they make jails out of magical bricks. Bricks that speak to inmates and impart life's lessons. Bricks that convince inmates not to repeat the behavior that brought them there. But, there is a brain sucking machine in the exit sallyport that sucks those proverbial lessons right out of the inmate's skull before enteringt the street. UNless head knowledge makes it down to the heart, it escapes the cranium.
Cloak,
You keep speaking Christianese and have not answered any of the questions posed to you.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 7:50:24 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 4692
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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"You keep speaking Christianese and have not answered any of the questions posed to you."
What do you mean by Christianese zamdad? What are these questions?
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 8:07:14 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 4692
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
quote:
You apparently have some wires crossed, my dear friend. If you are speaking of forgiveness for sins committed, that's one thing and I have no issue with that. If you are speaking about commuting another's sins so they are freed of the consequences of their actions, as noted by an earlier posting, you are speaking of something entirely different. It seems that you have the idea that we must forgive and forget...we are commanded to forgive others but nowhere are we told to forget; even God, in forgiving the sins of Israel and His people, never forgot their sins.
The Bible says to forgive, it never said to forget! I am not a specialist in crimes or psychologist, I was just voicing my opinion as a Christan to capital punishment that I was and still am AGAINST it. Period!
quote:
And, you never did answer my question as to whether you have ever ministered to, worked among
As an Evangelist, I have been ministering to so many folks who have been wounded and distorted by abuse, unfair life, cruel circumstances etc. I myself have suffered a lot which makes me can't help by have GREAT and ENORMOUS sympathy and empathy to all those who have had unfair, harsh or cruel circumstances.
Blessings!
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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