RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against?

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SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 8:30:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: upNORTder quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Genesis 9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. Numbers 35:31 Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death. Numbers 35:33 Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Ex 21:12 Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. Matt 5:21-22 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ´Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.´ But I tell you … anyone who says, `You fool!´ will be in danger of the fire of hell." According to the bible the judgment for murder is death... See Ex 21:12 Luke 23:41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. These words were spoken by one of the criminals who were hanging on a cross next to Jesus. The scripture clearly testifies of the legal conscience that people during all times have had. A death-sentenced criminal confesses that the flogging and the death sentence that was imposed on him were "just". And not only that, he himself felt that he "deserved" death. Acts 25:11 If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die. Here the apostle Paul answers to a governor and is being threatened by the capital punishment. The interesting thing is that Paul does not take the opportunity to speak up against the "barbaric death penalty." On the contrary, Paul acknowledges Rome’s right to use the death penalty and also he is allowed to serve as an example of the universal legal consciousness that has existed throughout all times. Paul is really saying that each and everyone who "deserves" a death sentence should have it imposed on them, even if it would mean himself. John John 8 1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." There was nothing just about their using the woman's sin in order to trap Jesus with the law... The key verse is the following... John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. They didn't bring the woman for a righteous judgment for her deeds, they brought her to Christ in order to accuse Him... Not only did they pervert God's law, they did so order to entrap Him with it... The above isn't a declaration of the death penalty being revoked... John

zamdad -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 8:36:45 PM)
quote: Cloak "You keep speaking Christianese and have not answered any of the questions posed to you." What do you mean by Christianese zamdad? What are these questions? My question quote: In your words, what does that love look like? Your response quote: Nothing but DIVINE, HEAVENLY, GODLY, DEEP, TRUE since her love reflected HIS (God's love)! My response and follow up question quote: That did not answer the question I asked. It's Christianese to the poor in spirit and downtrodden. What does His love look like? A bonus question quote: How would you know which ones are wise and humble as opposed to those who are in denial?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 8:41:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak Yes, Jesus said subject to judgement Not killing. "Judgement" does not necessarily mean by hanging him or by killing the murderer/criminal. It could simply mean that he is no more innocent and needs rehabilitation facilities such prison or detention centres. Hence, there is a Huge difference between what Jesus said "Subject to judgement" AND Murdering/Killing/Hanging someone because he murdered somebody else. You needs to read Exodus... Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." Exodus 21:12"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." That is the JUDGMENT Christ is referring to.... quote: While Jesus was being crucified on the Cross, He showed mercy and forgiveness and total restoration to one of the thieves beside Him, while He did not do that to the other thief who did Not repent. Yes and the thief(RIGHTLY) said the he was recieving his JUST due reward, death at the hands of the civil government ordained by God to deal with those who do evil... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 8:46:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad quote: The bible is clear on how the civil government is to deal with the problem which is why your view of whatever you deem the church to be is completely unfounded. The issue has nothing to do with people here getting off their couch, but of others having no regards for others and talking their life and usually in the commission of other sins/crimes because they refuse to love their neighbor and most of all, fear God... John, sometimes I get the impression you simply like to hear yourself talk. Yes, the same can be said about me. At least I am staying the topic of thread... John

bzirk -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 8:48:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames I am for the death penality, but not in its present form. There should be a 3 or 6 month absolute limit for the death penality to be imposed after sentencing. The lengthly waits (15 to 25 years) voids the deterrent effect of the penalty. As it was done in the 1800's was much more effective; publically and quickly. Thanks RC I'm for the death penalty and lean toward this application.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 8:50:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Solus Not having the death penalty is anarchy? Ok. Better than Fascism. I think we have a bad system in America. The life imprisonment system in America is wrong because it is almost rewards them. The death penalty offers no chance for them to change their ways. As I keep saying, we need to completely change the system as they have in Italy. A smallc dark, cold cell where you are alone. That is truly punishment and they still have a chance to change their ways. I'll go out on a limb and say the system we have now favors the guilty far more than the one that justly put the thief to death who was promised Paradise by Christ... The idea that one's time is cut short defys the clear biblical fact that God numbers a man's days, not man, and as well the painfully clear that God commands the death penalty... It's not an option... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 8:58:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad While this does not address the OP directly, it does support my contention that the argument over the morality of the death penalty detracts from the great commission to go and make disciples of men. If we, as individuals, lived out the great commission, we would not have the highest incarceration rate in the world nor would we have such a high rate of recidivism. The civil government's ordain purpose is to be the minister of God's wrath's for those who do evil... Nothing in the bible even suggest that the government justly dealing out a criminals due reward conflicts with the call to preach the gospel, in fact the biblical fact that one of the thieves put to death being saved punches a huge hole in your point of view.... To question the morality of the death penalty is nothing short of questioning God's morality... He commanded it and throughout His Word He directly and by commanded invoked many times... quote: Predators live among us and we, all too often, enable them by ignoring our gut or dismissing the little things that are characteristic of a sick heart. There would be far less predators living amoung us if the commands of God were followed... John

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 8:59:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad A bonus question quote: How would you know which ones are wise and humble as opposed to those who are in denial? I am not a psychologist, I am just voicing my opinion from a Christian perspective. Those who are humble would simply seek counseling, Christian Counseling or when someone evangelizes to them in prison cell, they would embrace God's love. I have watched on TV many prisoners and criminals witnessing how their life turned around when they yielded their life to the Lord thru those pastors whose ministry is in prisons. Since you mentioned in an earlier post that you work in a prison, I am fairly sure you came across many pastors who minister to prisoners in prison cells. There are deep-seated issues as to why those criminals killed and by killing or executing them; we did not resolve these deep-seated problems from the root. We simply erased it from existence.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:01:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fiat_lux quote: I have always and will always be for the death penalty. That was the first governmental law established from the Ark of Noah. At that point there was no government, so I'm not sure the statement in question (Genesis 9:6, I presume?) qualifies as a governmental law so much as it doesn't really specify who is the one responsible for the second bloodshedding. quote: I agree it should swift and just. Just like they deserve a swift trial, not be locked up indefinitely until someone decides to try them, they deserve and deserve a quick sentence. If we applied this logic, I suspect we would be killing innocent people, whose innocence was only proven after considerable delay, e.g. by newly examined DNA evidence. quote: Our present system is a mockery to justice. Whether we are pro or con. I'll agree with that, though not just for reasons of swiftness. For one thing, from what I've seen the conviction and sentencing guidelines for capital punishment have in some places become intricate enough that most people who can afford not to be executed generally aren't. The Israelite law, though I admit we don't implement it in national law today, is pretty clear on the moral issue of not letting the rich or the poor be judged with favoritism because of their condition. quote: Others always use the plea, "What if you were innocent and got caught up in it?" I said, then I would be one who fell through the cracks of what we have. That's true, but carrying out "quick sentences" isn't really going to solve that problem. How many innocent people may we kill, i.e. let "fall through the cracks," i.e. murder, before the system becomes wrong? quote: There is a difference in the command: "Thou shalt not murder." And our loose rendering of 'thou shalt not kill.' But society has always been governed by our ignorance and bias. Nothing new under the sun. True, that. quote: Capital punishment is a true regard for life. The life that was taken by the murderer. We have such misguided compassion for a murderer, yet nada for the unborn children murdered every day. I don't lack compassion for anyone who is killed. I'm not sure who you mean by "we." All humans are sinful. In my opinion a true regard for life acknowledges that nothing we do or don't do detracts from the fact that we are still human lives. The Romans 13-style arguments are somewhat difficult in our context because when Paul wrote, he was writing to Christians as though the government was something else, something not Christian at all, and he well knew that the government was capable of using the sword for more than just protection from evil-doers, seeing as how he was persecuted by that government rather severely. The question we are now trying to answer seems to be what Christians should do if they are in the place of government, and that question Romans 13 does not really answer. The verse certainly seems to leave open permission for a government to use force, even lethal force, but it does not say what a Christian should do in such a situation. In 1 Corinthians 6, Paul notes that while everything may be "permissible," not everything is beneficial or advisable. Personally, I believe that both Paul's and in fact Jesus's admonition to love even my enemies, and to repay evil with good, means that I may not kill a murderer as he or she has killed someone else. The fact that I don the cloak of the state does not give me the power to do something that as an individual servant of Christ I would not already do, and since I would not kill someone in the service of Christ, I certainly would not kill someone in the service of one of the powers of this world. So in your view of things is Joshua a mass murderer of men, woman and children, or for that matter is God? John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:03:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak Folks! Did you know that We are ALL like those prisoners when we first came to Christ. Weren't we Prisoners and Captives confined and caged in all sorts of sins, transgressions, dirts, filths...etc and it's ONLY BY God's Mercy, Forgiveness and Grace that we have been set free from the PRISON OF SIN when Jesus paid for the price of our SIN on the Cross! How can you deny to extend what you have received from Your Heavenly Father the very same thing He extended generously to you???? If your heart did not change when you received Christ's love, do you expect people to see Christ in you? What is the difference between us and the rest of the world? Why not...Extend the same generosity and grace you received from God to those poor victimized prisoners. Mind you many of them are innocent and victims of some unlucky circumstances! God has been Awesomely Generous toward us. Likewise, we should behave toward those sinned prisoners! Otherwise the world will NOT distinguish us from the rest and will not find any thing special and unique about Christians and the Christians faith. Be Merciful just like Your Heavenly Father has been merciful and graceful toward you! You need to consider the clear and distinctive deferance between temopral punishment for sin/crime and the eternal judgment... The thieves on the crosses with Christ are a fine example... John

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:05:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak Yes, Jesus said subject to judgement Not killing. "Judgement" does not necessarily mean by hanging him or by killing the murderer/criminal. It could simply mean that he is no more innocent and needs rehabilitation facilities such prison or detention centres. Hence, there is a Huge difference between what Jesus said "Subject to judgement" AND Murdering/Killing/Hanging someone because he murdered somebody else. You needs to read Exodus... Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." Exodus 21:12"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." quote: This is the OT, when Jesus came He modified many of the Mosaic rules. I honestly find Jesus' teaching and NT are more merciful, graceful and kind than OT, hence I prefer to stick to NT and Jesus' teaching since I am Christian.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:09:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak I am not a psychologist, I am just voicing my opinion from a Christian perspective. What is the foundation for your Christian perspective on the death penalty? Do you know that Moses asked folks to make a choice for the Lord and those who didn't were put to the sword... Like a few thousand people... Do you believe that actually happened? quote: There are deep-seated issues as to why those criminals killed and by killing or executing them; we did not resolve these deep-seated problems from the root. We simply erased it from existence. No, they were justly dealt with... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:14:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." Exodus 21:12"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." What point are you attemping to make by quoting the above? quote: This is the OT, when Jesus came He modified many of the Mosaic rules. Actually He rasied the bar... To hate a brother was liken to breaking the 5th Commandment... quote: I honestly find Jesus' teaching and NT are more merciful, graceful and kind than OT, hence I prefer to stick to NT and Jesus' teaching since I am Christian. You might need to consider the following when making claims such as the above... Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Btw... Do you believe God and or Jesus to be bipolar? Your views would suggest just that... John

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:15:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak How can you deny to extend what you have received from Your Heavenly Father the very same thing He extended generously to you???? You mean like to people that murder a whole family just for the "fun" of it OR seduce and murder 30 or so boys just to satisfy a lust OR murder a wife, children, and mother so he could start over - ALL stopped because of the efforts of the authorities and citizens, not because of sorrow and/or repentance. I cannot speak for you, but I repented of my sins because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God, not because of a human judge condemning me for taking human life without remorse. Do you understand what "repentance" means? Jimbo~ These people have issues in their life. There were Not born to be murderers or blood-shedders. As I mentioned in another post here, killing criminals will NOT solve these deep-seated psychological and emotional problems. These folks need HELP, esp those among them who are Open to change, humble and sincerely want to change!

stellaluna -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:24:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." Exodus 21:12"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." Who exactly do you think was surely putting to death the anyone that struck the man and killed him? [8\|]

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:24:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak quote: Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Btw... Do you believe God and or Jesus to be bipolar? Your views would suggest just that... John No, but I believe that Christianity is a Very or definitely the MOST LOVING, Peaceful, graceful faith/creed/religion in the world. It teaches us "To turn the other cheek" to "Go the extra mile" AND it goes as far as to ask us "To LOVE our enemies." [:D] I know these principles are hard to apply in our life. Thant's why Christianity is the MOST Unique and outstanding religion in the whole world! Unless we show the world that Christianity is the ONLY Unique, Original and Foundational in the world, we will NOT impress the world. [:)]

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:27:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stellaluna quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." Exodus 21:12"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." Who exactly do you think was surely putting to death the anyone that struck the man and killed him? [8\|] Again, when Jesus came, He modified the law. Please refer to my post to John here...Turn the other cheek, Love your enemies etc.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:28:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak How can you deny to extend what you have received from Your Heavenly Father the very same thing He extended generously to you???? You mean like to people that murder a whole family just for the "fun" of it OR seduce and murder 30 or so boys just to satisfy a lust OR murder a wife, children, and mother so he could start over - ALL stopped because of the efforts of the authorities and citizens, not because of sorrow and/or repentance. I cannot speak for you, but I repented of my sins because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God, not because of a human judge condemning me for taking human life without remorse. Do you understand what "repentance" means? Jimbo~ These people have issues in their life. There were Not born to be murderers or blood-shedders. As I mentioned in another post here, killing criminals will NOT solve these deep-seated psychological and emotional problems. These folks need HELP, esp those among them who are Open to change, humble and sincerely want to change! Anyone who is open to the truth of God's word and deserves death would and should speak as the following person did... Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:31:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak quote: ORIGINAL: stellaluna quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." Exodus 21:12"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." Who exactly do you think was surely putting to death the anyone that struck the man and killed him? [8\|] Again, when Jesus came, He modified the law. Please refer to my post to John here...Turn the other cheek, Love your enemies etc. The call to love one's enemies and as well to turn the other cheeks are directed at Christians, not the civil government and it's ordain purpose and obligation to deal with those who do evil... The civil government is God's ordained minister for those who do evil... They are to be fair and just and one can love their enemy and administer the law justly even to the degree of lawfully taking one's life for their crime... John

stellaluna -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:33:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak No, but I believe that Christianity is a Very or definitely the MOST LOVING, Peaceful, graceful faith/creed/religion in the world. It teaches us "To turn the other cheek" to "Go the extra mile" AND it goes as far as to ask us "To LOVE our enemies." [:D] ... Unless we show the world that Christianity is the ONLY Unique, Original and Foundational in the world, we will NOT impress the world. [:)] Actually, it really isn't. Jeremiah 6:10 To whom can I speak and give warning? Who will listen to me? Their ears are closed so they cannot hear. The word of the LORD is offensive to them; they find no pleasure in it. Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." quote: I know these principles are hard to apply in our life. Thant's why Christianity is the MOST Unique and outstanding religion in the whole world! Actually, having principles that are difficult to apply is true of any religion...and that is definitely not what makes Christianity unique or outstanding. Christianity is set apart from other religions because we serve the Creator and a risen Savior.

Cloak -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:35:34 PM)
The Bible is filled wit examples of people who did horrible things, yet God forgave these people and even gave them glory and honour simply because they REPENTED. Take someone like David: He committed adultery with Bethesda, killed her husband; yet when he Repented genuinely....God FORGAVE him, gave him honour, glory, promotion by Making him king thus He made him king David. Because God loved him dearly He referred to him as "A man after God's own heart." King David comes right after the Lord Jesus in the Bible in being dear to a God, despite ALL what he did. Yet, this King David is a Murderer, Adulterer, suffered depression etc. I am sure there are many other examples of bad folks (men and women) in the Bible whom God restored and honoured.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:37:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak No, but I believe that Christianity is a Very or definitely the MOST LOVING, Peaceful, graceful faith/creed/religion in the world. It teaches us "To turn the other cheek" to "Go the extra mile" AND it goes as far as to ask us "To LOVE our enemies." [:D] I know these principles are hard to apply in our life. Thant's why Christianity is the MOST Unique and outstanding religion in the whole world! Unless we show the world that Christianity is the ONLY Unique, Original and Foundational in the world, we will NOT impress the world. [:)] I really think you need to consider in your haste to make your point you are for the most part denying God to a certain degree... You speak of Original and Foundational yet you ignore the foundation of God's word and as well speak of God as if He has morphed into something else over time... Btw.... Since you didn't respnd to my question about Moses I am going to assume you don't believe what I posted... So... Exodus 32:26-28 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:40:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak The Bible is filled wit examples of people who did horrible things, yet God forgave these people and even gave them glory and honour simply because they REPENTED. Take someone like David: He committed adultery with Bethesda, killed her husband; yet when he Repented genuinely....God FORGAVE him, gave him honour, glory, promotion by Making him king thus He made him king David. Because God loved him dearly He referred to him as "A man after God's own heart." King David comes right after the Lord Jesus in the Bible in being dear to a God, despite ALL what he did. Yet, this King David is a Murderer, Adulterer, suffered depression etc. I am sure there are many other examples of bad folks (men and women) in the Bible whom God restored and honoured. How does anything you wrote revoke God's command.... Exodus 21:12 Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." God forgave the thief yet he was still put to death... John

stellaluna -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:40:22 PM)
And what, praytell, do you propose to do with those who don't repent? Have them sit in a cell for the remainder of their natural life? There's a big difference in a repentant David and a triumphant serial killer. The death penalty is set aside by our government for only the most heinous crimes and depraved criminals. I fully support all efforts being made to make sure a death row inmate is not there wrongly. But people make choices their entire lives. And if you make the choice to commit a capital crime, you should face the consequences.

HisFish -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (6/11/2008 9:50:50 PM)
I am for it, and what is this hogwash about the death penalty not being a deterrent?, every murderer executed will never murder again. Also the God who changes not instituted it not as a deterrent but soley as a means of justice.

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