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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 10:04:52 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 283
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
So in your view of things is Joshua a mass murderer of men, woman and children, or for that matter is God?
John
No, I'm not going to call God a mass murderer. Neither do I serve God in precisely the same context as Joshua, who, so far as I'm aware, received direct instructions to carry out a mission of violence on behalf of Israel, on the orders of God, and then went and did it. Those orders were given to the Israelites of the time, not to me. The orders that are given to me include prescriptions from the New Testament which in my opinion rule out killing people because of evil deeds they have done.
quote:
How does anything you wrote revoke God's command....
Exodus 21:12 Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death."
It has nothing to do with revoking God's commands. The statement you've just quoted here has been lifted, stripped out of context, from a legal code which does not exist in our national laws. For example, the same chapter you've taken that sentence from also prescribes the death penalty for cursing one's father or mother, and for kidnapping. And it says that you need not be punished for beating your slaves.
I suppose we could discuss swapping out the current criminal law for the one given to us in the Old Testament.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/11/2008 10:54:40 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 626
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." Romans 13: 1-4
A sword has only one function which is to kill.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 1:21:30 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 283
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
A sword has only one function which is to kill.
Yes, that's true, though it doesn't really speak to whether we ought to be "for" or "against" the death penalty, except in the general sense that God permits governments to kill people. In addition, the broader context of the passage (i.e. beginning in Romans 12) would seem to suggest that what Paul is aiming to teach in the passage is not a philosophy of government with which Christians may govern, but of how Christians should relate to others who may sometimes seem to be our enemy, including governments.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 6/12/2008 1:30:23 AM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 8:31:57 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
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This kinda sums it up to me...
In Jesus time it was legal, in the spiritual sence, to stone adulterers A woman was caught in the act of adultry and they took her out to be stoned. Jesus was there.
Let those without sin cast the first stone He said. Was Jesus without sin? Yes. Was the Law to stone adulterers? Yes. Did Jesus stone the adulterer? Nope.
Kinda looks like Jesus was not in favor of the death pentalty...eh? He said to the woman...go and sin no more. Put a murderer in jail for life....he cannot murder anymore.
Innocents are protected. The example of showing more compassion to the murderer than the murderer did to his victim is on a more higher moral ground.
The two reasons why people are for the death penalty are revenge...and saving money by not hoiusing the criminal. I don't think either is right.
....and ya can't change my mind.... 
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 9:39:49 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Innocents are protected. The example of showing more compassion to the murderer than the murderer did to his victim is on a more higher moral ground.
And just what limitations (if any) would you put on this "Compassion", buy the murderer a condo on the beach, free income for life, extra rewards for multiply victims?
The death penality should be quick and public for those who qualify.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 9:55:03 AM
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upNORTder
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If the state (us) executes an innocent man, who is guilty of his murder and should THEY get the death penalty?
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 10:01:56 AM
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Doc65
Posts: 277
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quote:
Original: Doc65
And, you never did answer my question as to whether you have ever ministered to, worked among or lived among them in their world (behind bars)? Having done all three, I have to say that a reality check is defintely in need here...
quote:
Original: Cloak
What are these questions
As an Evangelist, I have been ministering to so many folks who have been wounded and distorted by abuse, unfair life, cruel circumstances etc. I myself have suffered a lot which makes me can't help by have GREAT and ENORMOUS sympathy and empathy to all those who have had unfair, harsh or cruel circumstances.?
You must think this is a tango, as you are dancing around every simple, straightforward question that is put to you...I have also been ministering to folks who have been "wounded and distorted by abuse, unfair life, cruel circumstances etc." (your words, Cloak), including those who have suffered at the hands of those who are locked up for the very reasons that you seem to think that they are suffering unjustly for their crimes...
I sense a great naivete here...like I noted before, you may have the innnocent dove thing down, but I suggest you look into the serpents and wisdom.  Live among those you feel are so "victimized" and see what their reality is; and then go and live among those who are truly victimized by those you seem to view as victims...of their own doings...
Additionally, not only do your words suggest a great skill which would win you accolades on "Dancing with the Stars", you also are quite adept at circular logic... 
BTW, Christ came to fulfill the law, not to remove it...
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 10:04:54 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7761
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
If the state (us) executes an innocent man, who is guilty of his murder and should THEY get the death penalty?
Not if he's proven guilty by a court of law. The system isn't perfect..."innocent" men are convicted and "guilty" men are set free.
_____________________________
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 11:42:33 AM
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jroyjroy
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For me personally, the death penalty is right because it is supported by the Old and New Testament. It is justice for the victims and just punishment for the murderer.
However, regarding the deterrent debate, those who claim the death penalty is not a deterrent should read a ground breaking study indicating otherwise: “Does Death Penalty Save Lives? A New Debate”. It has confounded even death penalty abolitionists.
Since most people respond to incentives and weigh the possible repercussions to their actions, it is no surprise that, as the article states, for every 3 people put to death, 8 lives are saved.
A couple of excerpts from death penalty abolitionists found in the article:
“I personally am opposed to the death penalty,” said H. Naci Mocan, an economist at Louisiana State University and an author of a study finding that each execution saves five lives. “But my research shows that there is a deterrent effect.”
“Capital punishment may well save lives,” the two professors continued. “Those who object to capital punishment, and who do so in the name of protecting life, must come to terms with the possibility that the failure to inflict capital punishment will fail to protect life.”
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 1:05:12 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 283
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I suppose it doesn't really matter to me, since the deterrence or non-deterrence argument has no real bearing on my feelings about the death penalty, but it's worth pointing out that this "groundbreaking" research is neither entirely new nor entirely unchallenged. This sort of social science is usually speculative at best.
Professor Jeffrey ****an gave a critical review of new research to a New York government committee here (sorry about the rather biased Website source, but the report itself is from ****an):
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/****anTestimony.pdf
Edit: Sorry about the stars. Apparently part of his name is being caught by the filters. I suppose this means the link isn't going to work either).
In any event, the usual objections to the social science approaches are that there are too many variables involved, that numerous studies find widely varying results on the subject depending on which datasets are included and how, it's impossible to use controls or clearly isolate direct relationships between supposed cause and effect, etc.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 6/12/2008 1:14:30 PM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 1:27:22 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1296
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
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quote:
This kinda sums it up to me...
In Jesus time it was legal, in the spiritual sence, to stone adulterers A woman was caught in the act of adultry and they took her out to be stoned. Jesus was there.
Let those without sin cast the first stone He said. Was Jesus without sin? Yes. Was the Law to stone adulterers? Yes. Did Jesus stone the adulterer? Nope.
Kinda looks like Jesus was not in favor of the death pentalty...eh? He said to the woman...go and sin no more. Put a murderer in jail for life....he cannot murder anymore.
Innocents are protected. The example of showing more compassion to the murderer than the murderer did to his victim is on a more higher moral ground.
The two reasons why people are for the death penalty are revenge...and saving money by not hoiusing the criminal. I don't think either is right.
....and ya can't change my mind....
I agree with this. However, I decided not to come in here and argue against capital punishment because every time I do, Jack comes in and makes me feel dumb. Dang lawyers.
_____________________________
Molon Labe
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 1:38:49 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
If the state (us) executes an innocent man, who is guilty of his murder and should THEY get the death penalty?
Well I guess God will figure that out at the Bems.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 3:43:09 PM
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torath
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I will try to get move involved later, but I am in support of the death penalty. Not in the way we do it, with 20-30 years until the sentence is carried out.
As far as I can see, and again I will try to find time to dig up scripture about this, but God hold life sacred, and the spilling of our life-blood a most grevious offense. HE has always called for the death penalty for the crime of murder(an individual killing an innocent). I do not know of an exception in scripture. IF anyone does please post it or even e-mail me at tam_fehr@Hotmail.com
God is loving, but He knows that someone who willingly ends the life of another human being, without reason, has crossed a line and must be removed before they can do more harm or corrupt others.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 3:53:16 PM
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torath
Posts: 14
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
quote:
This kinda sums it up to me...
In Jesus time it was legal, in the spiritual sence, to stone adulterers A woman was caught in the act of adultry and they took her out to be stoned. Jesus was there.
Let those without sin cast the first stone He said. Was Jesus without sin? Yes. Was the Law to stone adulterers? Yes. Did Jesus stone the adulterer? Nope.
Kinda looks like Jesus was not in favor of the death pentalty...eh? He said to the woman...go and sin no more. Put a murderer in jail for life....he cannot murder anymore.
Innocents are protected. The example of showing more compassion to the murderer than the murderer did to his victim is on a more higher moral ground.
The two reasons why people are for the death penalty are revenge...and saving money by not hoiusing the criminal. I don't think either is right.
....and ya can't change my mind....
I agree with this. However, I decided not to come in here and argue against capital punishment because every time I do, Jack comes in and makes me feel dumb. Dang lawyers.
This was discussed earlier. It was lawful to stone them both but the men did not want to kill their buddy, they were trying to again trap Jesus by having him acquiesce under the law and then have fault with him for not calling for the man to be brought forth. Jesus instead found a way to challenge the men, cause them to leave. Then under Jewish law, He asked for her accusers, there were none, so He had no basis, under the law to kill her.
And the statement of life in prision will stop a murderer from killing....how many other convicts(not in for capital crimes) and guards/counselors/wardens or other innocent employees or volunteers have been killed by inmates? I do not even know where to get numbers but I have seen the specials on TV about the huge amount of murders that happen INSIDE the prisions.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 7:08:09 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 626
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
Put a murderer in jail for life....he cannot murder anymore
This is not at all true. In this country a life sentence is not a life sentence, unless specified that it not include the possibility of parole, also, they can murder a fellow inmate.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 7:57:47 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
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quote:
These criminals will NOT STOP doing what they're doing unless they're dead. Some are plotting how to get out, some are plotting what they'll do to their cell mates.
So we just kill them to make sure...??
quote:
And just what limitations (if any) would you put on this "Compassion", buy the murderer a condo on the beach, free income for life, extra rewards for multiply victims?
The compassion to them is a side effect from not acting like them. Its the standard set by stepping away from an eye for an eye ideology, to turn the other cheek. Certainly we are called to protect innocents. Certainly justice must be done. Life in prison does both.
quote:
how many other convicts(not in for capital crimes) and guards/counselors/wardens or other innocent employees or volunteers have been killed by inmates?
I will guarentee you that more people died in the mining industry than in the prison system...was it my choice to work in a stone quarry? Yep. Choices. No one has to work there. Its the choices we make.
quote:
In this country a life sentence is not a life sentence
If you want life in prison then change the law so murderes always get life in prison. That...I would support. Its not really a good reason to kill them though...eh?
quote:
There are some crimes that are just so horrific that there is no suitable punishment but death.
...and this is not revenge...ooook. I wonder if mercy has any bearing on our lives....as christians? Did you deserve death and hell before you were saved? Yep. I did too. Thank God we are NOT God.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 9:21:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
This kinda sums it up to me...
In Jesus time it was legal, in the spiritual sence, to stone adulterers A woman was caught in the act of adultry and they took her out to be stoned. Jesus was there.
Please explain what "in the spiritual sence" means in the above...
quote:
Let those without sin cast the first stone He said. Was Jesus without sin? Yes. Was the Law to stone adulterers? Yes. Did Jesus stone the adulterer? Nope.
Kinda looks like Jesus was not in favor of the death pentalty...eh? He said to the woman...go and sin no more. Put a murderer in jail for life....he cannot murder anymore.
They didn't bring her for a judgment they brought her to trap Jesus as it states in verse 6 so you kinda don't have a point... For Jesus to be against the death penalty would make God a liar.
quote:
Innocents are protected.
Actually they are not... Repeat offenders are common....
quote:
The example of showing more compassion to the murderer than the murderer did to his victim is on a more higher moral ground.
According to what?
quote:
The two reasons why people are for the death penalty are revenge...and saving money by not hoiusing the criminal. I don't think either is right.
Unfounded...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 9:24:57 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
If the state (us) executes an innocent man, who is guilty of his murder and should THEY get the death penalty?
If it could be proven that someone in the system did something unlawful they should be put to death...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/12/2008 9:37:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
So we just kill them to make sure...??
No... The state puts them to death as commanded by God given the crime...
quote:
The compassion to them is a side effect from not acting like them.
How can you compare someone justly being put to death for their actions to someone who commits murder... Denying there is a distinction can help put point the finger at those who killed by the command of God, and of course God Himself...
quote:
Its the standard set by stepping away from an eye for an eye ideology, to turn the other cheek.
Where is written that the civil government is to turn the other cheek? Wouldn't that mean one could murder and simply walk at least one time?
quote:
If you want life in prison then change the law so murderes always get life in prison. That...I would support. Its not really a good reason to kill them though...eh?
The bible dosen't support life in prison...
quote:
There are some crimes that are just so horrific that there is no suitable punishment but death.
...and this is not revenge...ooook. I wonder if mercy has any bearing on our lives....as christians? Did you deserve death and hell before you were saved? Yep. I did too. Thank God we are NOT God.
How about the idea of temporal consquences for one's sins/crime... If the above is the model to be consistant you should be against any form of punishment... You are mixing the temporal with the eternal...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/13/2008 4:47:45 AM
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OneOfHisJewels
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From: California
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I am for the death penalty, IF it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person being executed DID in fact committ the murder (or if they confessed to it).
I saw an Extreme Makeover once where they were fixing this guys teeth. He had been found guilty of a murder because he had crooked teeth, and there were crooked teeth bite marks on the victim's back. However, the murder was committed at a bar at night at a time when the suspect was home. However, because the poor man lived at home he had no solid alibi, and was sadly put in prison for 10, 15, or 20 years, I can't remember which. Then when advances were made with DNA testing, they tested him, and found he was innocent. His DNA did not match the DNA they had found on the victim. If they had done the death penalty on this man, a poor innocent man would have been killed because he had the misfortune to have crooked teeth. I always hoped they gave him a stipend for all his years in prison, but I doubt they did.
_____________________________
Now thank we all our God, with hearts and hands and voices, what wondrous things He's done, in whom the world rejoices.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/13/2008 10:04:06 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 218
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
If the state (us) executes an innocent man, who is guilty of his murder and should THEY get the death penalty?
If it could be proven that someone in the system did something unlawful they should be put to death...
John
And how do you resurrect the poor innocent executed man? Has anyone "in the system" ever been executed for killing an innocent suspect?
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/13/2008 12:33:03 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4290
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Oh please. Spend some time on Crime Library and then let's talk. There are people in prison who undergo genuine repentance and become born again. Those people know that they deserve the punishment meted out to them, even if it includes civil penalty of death. Many more fake it hoping to get sympathy, deny they did anything wrong in the first place--even when evidence proves otherwise, or simply don't care. There are people who are beyond saving for whatever reason.
Additionally, there are scores of victims left in the wake of all of these criminals--children, mothers, fathers, spouses, strangers. Someone must speak for these people. Someone, in our case the government, must find some sort of justice for these people. Their lives are frequently irreparably changed forever...their "sentence" has no end.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/13/2008 12:33:05 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: torath
...HE has always called for the death penalty for the crime of murder(an individual killing an innocent). I do not know of an exception in scripture. IF anyone does please post it or even e-mail me...
Now that you mention it... there was Cain... and King David (to cover up his sin with Bethsheba).
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