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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/11/2008 3:22:09 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1249
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
Since you asked, I get my information from "objective" sources. Your assertions aren't based in logic. I'm sure all of those Enron employees knew about the Energy Business too! They worked there right?? Yet another "upstanding" Houston-based company I suppose.
Further assumptions that you make, like me being a Democrat or Pro-Clinton are also INCORRECT.
oh, yes....you know better than any "industry expert" does...
and, exactly who is the "head" of this group of people "monopolizing" the oil business?.....Jed Clampett????
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/11/2008 3:24:44 PM
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sylvan
Posts: 58
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quote:
EDIT: additionally.....the one statement that makes the point: of those people I know that are oil/energy market consultants and analysts, how many explain the current market to the reasons/causes you list above? NONE. (even those who work for independent consultancies)
Oh, I forgot to address this remark. NONE? Really? I think maybe you just aren't receptive to information that conflicts with a preconceived notion that you have.
Here's an interesting article (notice the date).
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,809080,00.html?internalid=ACA
"The independent oilmen who dominate the Texas commission have created an artificial shortage of oil and used that shortage to hike the price of crude oil 12% to a record average of $3.25 per bbl."
The conflict in Iraq is the same thing and plenty of reliable sources are saying the same thing I am. The fact is, the oil industry has a very dark past - but, obviously I've got the history all wrong.
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/11/2008 3:27:42 PM
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sylvan
Posts: 58
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
Since you asked, I get my information from "objective" sources. Your assertions aren't based in logic. I'm sure all of those Enron employees knew about the Energy Business too! They worked there right?? Yet another "upstanding" Houston-based company I suppose.
Further assumptions that you make, like me being a Democrat or Pro-Clinton are also INCORRECT.
oh, yes....you know better than any "industry expert" does...
and, exactly who is the "head" of this group of people "monopolizing" the oil business?.....Jed Clampett????
Wow, that's incredibly naive. Ahhh, I can only pray.
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/11/2008 3:41:49 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1249
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
Since you asked, I get my information from "objective" sources. Your assertions aren't based in logic. I'm sure all of those Enron employees knew about the Energy Business too! They worked there right?? Yet another "upstanding" Houston-based company I suppose.
Further assumptions that you make, like me being a Democrat or Pro-Clinton are also INCORRECT.
oh, yes....you know better than any "industry expert" does...
and, exactly who is the "head" of this group of people "monopolizing" the oil business?.....Jed Clampett????
Wow, that's incredibly naive. Ahhh, I can only pray.
well, if everything is as you say....once obama becomes president, and the current president is no longer "controlling the prices", oil prices will plummet....dramatically....almost instantly.....
Especially once we "give up" and surrender in Iraq (which Obama has got to do before the troops "screw up" and win that thing)
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/11/2008 3:43:33 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1249
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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this just in:
A House subcommittee has rejected a Republican-led effort to open up more U.S. coastal waters to oil exploration.
and, they WONDER why the price of oil is so high????
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365627,00.html
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/11/2008 4:57:35 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1081
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Buffalo Trading Post
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Insanity...the Chinese are drilling right now in these waters. This is almost to the point of being self-sabotage by domestic enemies.
_____________________________
Lutefisk--The Piece Of Cod That Passeth All Understanding
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/11/2008 5:13:23 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1154
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
this just in:
A House subcommittee has rejected a Republican-led effort to open up more U.S. coastal waters to oil exploration.
and, they WONDER why the price of oil is so high????
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365627,00.html
At least the Dems are consistant. Check this little thing about wind farms in Mass. out.
Kennedy Rejects Wind Farms
Seems any type of energy gathering source off costal waters is taboo among "green" Dems in congress.
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/11/2008 5:50:46 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1672
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
this just in:
A House subcommittee has rejected a Republican-led effort to open up more U.S. coastal waters to oil exploration.
and, they WONDER why the price of oil is so high????
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365627,00.html
At least the Dems are consistant. Check this little thing about wind farms in Mass. out.
Kennedy Rejects Wind Farms
Seems any type of energy gathering source off costal waters is taboo among "green" Dems in congress.
This story is from several years ago.
A Chicago-school economist would have the guys who own the wind turbines reimburse people for blocking their view, but hey, whatever it takes for Republicans to have something to complain about for several years.
While we're at it:
*I just can't believe all of that mindless spending that went on in the Roosevelt administration.*
*Did you know that that rotten Democrat Jefferson Davis supported slavery?*
Don't make me bring up Nixon, Steph.
Also note that this was introduced by Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/11/2008 5:58:22 PM >
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/11/2008 6:51:42 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2010
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
Insanity...the Chinese are drilling right now in these waters. This is almost to the point of being self-sabotage by domestic enemies.
There also doing a different type of exploration in our government's computers.
Lawmakers say Capitol computers hacked by Chinese
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/12/2008 2:27:44 PM
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galadriel2
Posts: 128
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Yeah, taxing oil companies - money for government, less money for us. More control for government; less freedom for us.
God bless all,
Galadriel2
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/12/2008 5:18:08 PM
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relady
Posts: 953
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Also note that this was introduced by Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens. hahahaaa. the guy who thinks the internet is made up of "tubes"? Yeah, he's real credible. LOLOL.
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/12/2008 7:18:31 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3570
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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Taxing oil companies...how does taking profit away from a business lower their prices?
Ten billion in profits...ok...who spent that money? Was it the ceo? Is his salary ten billion? Where did that "ill gotten gain" go? You can define profit in many ways...was this a bottom line profit after every expence was paid...or just a gross profit before expenditures?
Everyone...it seems...wants a government solution to lowering prices. IF you want a government solution, it would seem taking profits from the oil companies is the worst thing you could do. IF you want a government solution it would seem to make oil gathering and distribution MORE profitable would be the answer...hence helping the oil companies out.
IF you believe the government should help with oil prices then subsidies could be the answer. However once the profit is their's what is the guarentee the companies will lower prices? Not much I think.
If we could make the oil companies lower the price on gas they get in subsidies then.....see that is faulty logic because the price would be exactly what it is, then, without the subsidies in the first place. It DOES however define the waste our government likes to practice.
Its just a way some are trying to promote the nationalization of the oil industry.
Socialism......and our anger over rising gas prices gives socialism its fuel to act.
Wise investors are calm people. If we let our fear and anger control us...we will have nationalized companies.
Heaven help us.
< Message edited by SonInMe1 -- 6/12/2008 7:25:02 PM >
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/13/2008 4:22:16 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2010
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
You can define profit in many ways...was this a bottom line profit after every expence was paid...or just a gross profit before expenditures?
This is defined as Gross Revenue. Profit (or loss) is always after expenditures.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/13/2008 8:25:13 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3570
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From: my mom by God
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Ok, but it doesn't answer my question. Oil is expensive to find...it takes moeny to do this and I would presume to specualte on finding oil one must have the resources first before trying...would a bank or lending institution give a loan for oil exploration? Probably not.
So the oil companies made ten billion dollars...how much of that is alocated to find more oil in the future? Its just spent by...whom? How is it spent? Does wealth just disappear withour effecting the economy? Does the ceo have such a large bed he can hide ten billion dollars under it?
I don't get it. Some company makes money and its...evil? I think people are mad because they are jealous.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/13/2008 8:28:05 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
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I suppose anyone could argue all day the cause of the gas prices being so high, the list of possible reasons floating around out there seems to never end. But whatever you may believe, I don't see how ANYONE thinks a "windfall profits tax" is or could ever be a good idea. Do you think the oil companies are going to have the government taking a bunch of their money and just sit back and say "oh well"? Of course not! They would increase their prices in order to make up that money!
Also, I think people just get angry at the prices, and so do I trust me, and then in their anger this seems to make sense. But really we all need to look at the long term on this one. First of all, it's only a dream to think windfall profits tax would lower prices. Secondly, if the oil companies can have such a thing shoved upon them, who's to say that next year it won't be any other much needed company?
All this is is an attempt to "redistribute the wealth", i.e. socialism. Do you really want the government to step in and tell someone or some company how much (or how little) they are allowed to keep as profit? Because gauging from the history of the government actions, you better believe it will not stop with the oil companies. The only results to come of it would either be much higher prices for the average consumer or the company going out of business, neither of which would help out current problems in my estimation.
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/13/2008 10:13:13 AM
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relady
Posts: 953
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
So the oil companies made ten billion dollars...how much of that is alocated to find more oil in the future? Its just spent by...whom? How is it spent? I am sure you can get many of these answers by looking at their annual report.
quote:
I don't see how ANYONE thinks a "windfall profits tax" is or could ever be a good idea. Actually, after hearing my Senator talk on this issue, I think what the bill included was not truly a windfall profits tax. The spin got out there on the news and it, of course, stuck. BTW, this was not even about passing or not passing the bill, this whole issue was simply about debating issues in the bill. The Republicans simply shut down any and all debate on the bill.
quote:
Do you really want the government to step in and tell someone or some company how much (or how little) they are allowed to keep as profit? That is NOT what this bill was about. It was about removing the current subsidies the government gives the oil companies. Do you really think a company that had 10BILLION in gross profits for ONE QUARTER really needs to be subsidized by your tax money? Well, the Republicans do.
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/13/2008 11:07:24 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1672
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
So the oil companies made ten billion dollars...how much of that is alocated to find more oil in the future? Its just spent by...whom? How is it spent? Does wealth just disappear withour effecting the economy? Does the ceo have such a large bed he can hide ten billion dollars under it?
Well, there won't be much more oil to find in the future because we are running out- and the oil companies know this. That's why a lot of oil companies are paying out more than 50% of their profits in dividends.
Don't get me wrong- Big Oil has a huge CapEx budget for finding new reserves, but the majority of a company's oil revenues go somewhere else besides finding and producing new reserves. Still, they're not as bad as Big Pharma- they don't spend more money on marketing than research.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/13/2008 11:13:26 AM >
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/13/2008 9:26:01 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2522
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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Then why do they want to invest millions in drilling.
And wind will do NOTHING in
Helping a framer plant/sow/reap his fields
Getting that produce to the production places
Getting it from those places to the markets
Getting the customer to the store
Running emergency vehicles
Running school buses, garbage trucks, mail trucks, service trucks for power/phone companies
Getting the entire population to switch to beer cans run by batteries
Since you are such an expert on wind power, please explain how this cam be done within the next five to ten years without bankrupting the country,
Drill here, drill now, pay less
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/13/2008 9:28:49 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2522
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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quote:
Still, they're not as bad as Big Pharma- they don't spend more money on marketing than research.
Oh, yes the evil drug companies along with the evil big retail, but nothing is evil about big government.
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/14/2008 10:24:23 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
quote:
I don't see how ANYONE thinks a "windfall profits tax" is or could ever be a good idea. Actually, after hearing my Senator talk on this issue, I think what the bill included was not truly a windfall profits tax. The spin got out there on the news and it, of course, stuck. BTW, this was not even about passing or not passing the bill, this whole issue was simply about debating issues in the bill. The Republicans simply shut down any and all debate on the bill.
No, the bill WAS also about a windfall profits tax. It was to stop giving the oil companies the subsidies and to transfer this money into promoting other renewable forms of energy. And it was also about imposing an extra 25% tax on all "windfall" profits the oil companies make unless said oil companies invest these profits into new refineries and "clean energy". And the bill would also stop the addition of any oil going into the strategic oil reserves until the end of the year. That was the bill.
quote:
quote:
Do you really want the government to step in and tell someone or some company how much (or how little) they are allowed to keep as profit? That is NOT what this bill was about. It was about removing the current subsidies the government gives the oil companies. Do you really think a company that had 10BILLION in gross profits for ONE QUARTER really needs to be subsidized by your tax money? Well, the Republicans do.
As I said above, the bill was not only about subsidies. And if the government is saying to the company that they must invest in these certain areas or pay a large tax, which by the way is the oil companies spending (or losing) more money either way, then yes I would call that the government trying to dictate what is "allowed" to be kept as profit.
Also as far as subsidizing the oil companies with taxpayer dollars, this money is not coming back to you the taxpayer if it is taken from the oil companies. The government will then spend it on wind and solar energies, or "promoting" them as they say. If I have a choice in the matter, I do say give the money to the oil companies. I need oil. I use oil. I don't have anything powered by wind or solar energy that I rely on. And it's the same for almost everyone else in this country.
And while those in government want to pretend to be all broken up about gas prices and want to take money from the oil companies profits, they sure don't mention the money they make in tax on every gallon of gas do they? The governments cut of the money truly is a windfall profit too, because they have none of the cost of drilling, shipping, and refining yet they make more per gallon than the oil companies do, or at the very least the same amount of money per gallon.
< Message edited by Sophie11 -- 6/14/2008 10:35:06 AM >
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/14/2008 2:40:48 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1672
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Then why do they want to invest millions in drilling.
And wind will do [size=-1NOTHING in
Helping a framer plant/sow/reap his fields
Getting that produce to the production places
Getting it from those places to the markets
Getting the customer to the store
Running emergency vehicles
Running school buses, garbage trucks, mail trucks, service trucks for power/phone companies
Of course it will. Chevy is coming out with plug-in hybrids, and in another 5-10 years, we can expect hydrogen powered vehicles to hit the market. Already, Honda employees are testing them out.
quote:
Since you are such an expert on wind power, please explain how this cam be done within the next five to ten years without bankrupting the country,
It's already being done. 2000 MW wind capacity costs $2 Billion and can generate roughly 40 thousand barrels per day oil equivalent of energy. Multiply that by 75, and you have the same amount of energy that Exxon Mobil produces on a daily basis at a cost that is 1/3 Exxon's market cap.
This energy can either be converted to hydrogen on-site or passed into the electrical grid, where users can plug in their cars at home.
If the market caps of existing gas pipelines are any indication, it might cost $100 Billion to set up an infrastructure for getting hydrogen to gas stations. This is roughly 1/5th the money we have spent on a certain oil producing over the past five years, and the amount of money we spend on oil in roughly a month at current prices.
Best of all, because of the high price of gasoline, the market is willing to fund all of this. The money you're currently spending on gasoline should be enough to get the energy monkey off our backs by encouraging investments in alternative energy.
I'm not saying the government needs to fund anything. All I'm saying is that the market fundamentals for alternative energy look very good with current oil prices. Even if we drill for oil in ANWR, Yellowstone, and the Everglades, that still won't be enough to bring gas prices below $3.50/gallon. Government subsidies might speed up the process, but I will make a bold prediction and say that if oil prices stay the way they are, only 80% of America's transportation energy will come from oil in 10 years, and 50% in 20.
One way that the government could help would be to grant rights-of-way for hydrogen or ammonia pipelines like they did for railroads back in the 1800s.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/14/2008 4:02:34 PM >
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/14/2008 2:42:15 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1672
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Still, they're not as bad as Big Pharma- they don't spend more money on marketing than research.
Oh, yes the evil drug companies along with the evil big retail, but nothing is evil about big government.
Any large institution is going to be run inefficiently, but for all of Big Government's faults, more money that goes into welfare goes towards helping people in need than money that goes into prescriptions paying for developing and producing pharmaceuticals.
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/14/2008 2:53:22 PM
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relady
Posts: 953
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
I need oil. I use oil. I don't have anything powered by wind or solar energy that I rely on. We all do right now, but it IS a finite resource, and we need to be looking at ways to get ourselves off of it. That's the future and the US needs a future vision that goes past the instant gratification we are so spoiled with.
The only way to get the U.S. to change is for it to be cheap, convenient, or painful. In the case of oil, it's going to be very very painful because it is no longer cheap for sure. The more painful it gets the faster the alternative resources will be funded and developed.
I would rather see those oil subsidies used to explore alternative energy resources. If the oil companies will do that, then fine. If not, send that money to someone who will.
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/14/2008 3:00:21 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
I need oil. I use oil. I don't have anything powered by wind or solar energy that I rely on. We all do right now, but it IS a finite resource, and we need to be looking at ways to get ourselves off of it. That's the future and the US needs a future vision that goes past the instant gratification we are so spoiled with.
The only way to get the U.S. to change is for it to be cheap, convenient, or painful. In the case of oil, it's going to be very very painful because it is no longer cheap for sure. The more painful it gets the faster the alternative resources will be funded and developed.
I would rather see those oil subsidies used to explore alternative energy resources. If the oil companies will do that, then fine. If not, send that money to someone who will.
I just don't think that we should bankrupt ourselves in the process of trying to get cheaper energy. That does not help. As far as the oil subsidies go, IF there is someone who will truly try do develop another source of energy, then fine give them the subsidies. But I guarantee the government is not the one to look to in this issue, efficient isn't even in their vocabulary. Anyway, oil may be a finite source but in the meantime there ARE still many areas where it is known or suspected to be that have not even been tapped into yet. I don't think oil is going to be running out anytime in the next 20 or 30 years minimum so that does give time to develop other energy sources and get them on the market without ruining the economy in the process.
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RE: Taxing oil companies - 6/14/2008 4:30:20 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2522
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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Talk about finite or refusal to drill ANYWHERE
link one
link two
link three
Lincoln said the beliefs of the classroom in one generation will be the beliefs of the government in the next generation. We have seen this play out; the beliefs that were proclaimed on campus in the sixties are now common in not only govermment, but the media, entertainment, and the apostate church. We still have professors such as Ward Churhill who proclaim the evils of America and the need for her no longer to be a superpower in the world.
As an example of the media mind-numbing the nation, here example from the TV series West Wing
West Wing : Season 6 (2004-05)
The Hubbert Peak (originally aired November 17, 2004)
Josh crashes a SUV into a hybrid-energy vehicle over the weekend while discussing gas prices now versus those of the early 1980s (1). Josh's incident looks particularly symbolic given the Bartlet administration's failure to push an amendment to CAFE standards (2). Josh and Kate discuss the long-term prospects for the world's oil supply as predicted by geologist M. King Hubbert and others (3) and whether to raise gas taxes (4). Josh then gets appointed to meet with people regarding alternative fuels (4). Toby gets some more advice about serving as press secretary. C.J. visits Leo and discuses the need to keep evaluating Bartlet because of his multiple sclerosis. Will thinks about the upcoming presidential race. Charlie leaves his job for Bartlet and takes on a new job for C.J.
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