The Ultimate Conspiracy (Full Version)

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The Ultimate Conspiracy


Obama - JFK, MLK deja vous
  3% (1)
Aliens (the space kind)
  3% (1)
John McCain as President of USA
  0% (0)
The Creator is awaking Up the World
  0% (0)
NOW (Real ID/RFID chip)
  3% (1)
Rapture or Staged Rapture
  3% (1)
Freemasonry, Illuminati or New World Order/One World Order
  10% (3)
Al Gore/Global Warming
  10% (3)
Religion: Other Religions and/or Cross-less Christianity
  43% (13)
Other
  23% (7)


Total Votes : 30
(last vote on : 10/26/2008 12:02:27 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message


Pat-rebel_lady -> The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/11/2008 10:09:08 AM)

Which of the following do you think will be the Ultimate Conspiracy to full-filling:
, …. so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones.” [The New International Version]




1dblthnk02 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/11/2008 10:24:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
Which of the following do you think will be the Ultimate Conspiracy to full-filling:
, …. so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones.” [The New International Version]

Good question. I have oft pondered this myself. Whatever it is, if it can fool even God's "elect," then it must be something that appears appealing to them.
Would it be something religious in nature, like a wolf in sheep's wool, or an exciting false doctrine? Or would it be something anti-religious with an irresistible appeal to the fleshly nature?

More importantly, has it already come? Is it new, or was it there all along?




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/11/2008 11:33:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
Which of the following do you think will be the Ultimate Conspiracy to full-filling:
, …. so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones.” [The New International Version]
m
Good question. I have oft pondered this myself. Whatever it is, if it can fool even God's "elect," then it must be something that appears appealing to them.
Would it be something religious in nature, like a wolf in sheep's wool, or an exciting false doctrine? Or would it be something anti-religious with an irresistible appeal to the fleshly nature?

More importantly, has it already come? Is it new, or was it there all along?

I choose ‘Religion: Other Religions and/or Cross-less Christianity’; Namely, Cross-less Christianity.

Cross-less Christianity because when the things of this world, including our personal desires, govern us (including our focus on the things of Christ); Philippians 3: 18-19, “For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.; more than the Cross of Christ --- to deceive ourselves, and others around us, and that (unseen and undetected by us) has to be ‘the Ultimate Conspiracy’.

Note: In cross-less Christianity we are not enemies of Christ, because our ungoverned desires still need the good things He can do for us, i.e., salvation and healing --- but we do lose our God given purpose and witness --- as was designed in its fullness.




mapachito13 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/11/2008 12:58:11 PM)

Even though I started the Obama thread, I voted for the Freemason, Illuminti one only because I have heard of this one the longest.

I had an uncle who worked for the OSS (the precursor for today's CIA) in Korea and he used to tell me stories about Freemasons knocking people off and such. So every time I hear the word Freemason it reminds me off those stories of intrigue and murder! Of course, as a caveat, I have to add that there was more than one family member who thought that what he saw in Korea also affected him mentally in a negative way.

BTW, very good Biblical arguments in favor of the others. It might have swayed my vote if I had read them first and voted later instead of vice versa.




JimboFletch -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/11/2008 3:41:18 PM)

If it makes you feel any better, I heard through the grapevine that Sen. Obama is a Freemason and a candidate (providing he wins the WH in November) for the Illuminati.




I've tried to post this 3 times... something's going on here.
[&:]




mapachito13 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/11/2008 6:43:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

If it makes you feel any better, I heard through the grapevine that Sen. Obama is a Freemason and a candidate (providing he wins the WH in November) for the Illuminati.




I've tried to post this 3 times... something's going on here.
[&:]


But don't all (democrat and republican) belong to that "Council of Foreign Relations". I heard that's one membership card you HAVE to have to even consider winning the Presidency.

Uh-oh! There listening! They might come for us!!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!![sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]




1dblthnk02 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/12/2008 10:44:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
I choose ‘Religion: Other Religions and/or Cross-less Christianity’; Namely, Cross-less Christianity.

Why would this appeal to God's "elect?"




mapachito13 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/12/2008 1:04:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
I choose ‘Religion: Other Religions and/or Cross-less Christianity’; Namely, Cross-less Christianity.

Why would this appeal to God's "elect?"


I think it is a Christianity where its all happy-happy-joy-joy and we don't pick up our cross and follow Him. We don't die unto ourselves. There's no sacrifice in our life for Him. We say a little prayer and we think that gives us a "Get Out of Hell" free card. We are more concerned with the speck in my brother's eye than in the plank in our own. Everyone else needs to change, but not me, because I am a Christian!




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/13/2008 8:29:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
I choose ‘Religion: Other Religions and/or Cross-less Christianity’; Namely, Cross-less Christianity.

Why would this appeal to God's "elect?"



I think it is a Christianity where its all happy-happy-joy-joy and we don't pick up our cross and follow Him. We don't die unto ourselves. There's no sacrifice in our life for Him. We say a little prayer and we think that gives us a "Get Out of Hell" free card. We are more concerned with the speck in my brother's eye than in the plank in our own. Everyone else needs to change, but not me, because I am a Christian!

Good post!

I would add: Hebrews 5:11-14;
5:11
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn.
5:12
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
5:13
Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
5:14
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

AND


Colossians 2:1-8; which is designed and geared to take ones mind off of Colossians 2:9-15:
2:1
I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally.

2:2
My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,

2:3
in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

2:4
I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

2:5
For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

2:6
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,

2:7
rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

2:10
and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

2:11
In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,

2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

2:15
And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.




WesP -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/13/2008 8:43:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
I choose ‘Religion: Other Religions and/or Cross-less Christianity’; Namely, Cross-less Christianity.

Why would this appeal to God's "elect?"


I think it is a Christianity where its all happy-happy-joy-joy and we don't pick up our cross and follow Him. We don't die unto ourselves. There's no sacrifice in our life for Him. We say a little prayer and we think that gives us a "Get Out of Hell" free card. We are more concerned with the speck in my brother's eye than in the plank in our own. Everyone else needs to change, but not me, because I am a Christian!


Spot on! [sm=thumbsup.gif]




1dblthnk02 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/13/2008 9:40:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I think it is a Christianity where its all happy-happy-joy-joy and we don't pick up our cross and follow Him.

I'm not sure that I buy this. I mean, are the elect nothing more than just your garden variety, Sunday social church-goer? Would God's elect, for whose sake He will shorten the days wherein "no flesh should be saved," really be desiring the lukewarmness that you describe? I would think that the elect should have a little deeper faith than that. I would think that the great deception that Christ foretold would appeal to the elect's zealousness, not their laziness.

quote:

We don't die unto ourselves. There's no sacrifice in our life for Him. We say a little prayer and we think that gives us a "Get Out of Hell" free card. We are more concerned with the speck in my brother's eye than in the plank in our own. Everyone else needs to change, but not me, because I am a Christian!

What you describe here is just plain ol' human nature sprinkled with a little religion on top. This does not seem like some grand doctrinal conspiracy, much less the great deception that Jesus warned his disciples was coming in the future.




mapachito13 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/13/2008 10:44:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

I'm not sure that I buy this. I mean, are the elect nothing more than just your garden variety, Sunday social church-goer? Would God's elect, for whose sake He will shorten the days wherein "no flesh should be saved," really be desiring the lukewarmness that you describe? I would think that the elect should have a little deeper faith than that. I would think that the great deception that Christ foretold would appeal to the elect's zealousness, not their laziness.



Remember being the "Elect" doesn't preclude these people from temptation. Jesus Himself was allowed to be sorely tested in the desert.

So choosing to follow Jesus isn't just a one time decision. It a choice we make every day and especially every time we are faced with that temptation to be of the world.

Paul lamented about his struggles when he said, "For I do not do the good I want but I do the evil I do not want." Romans 7:19 and he wrote half of the NT and was personally chosen by Jesus to be a major spokesman for Christianity.




cow451 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/13/2008 10:48:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

If it makes you feel any better, I heard through the grapevine that Sen. Obama is a Freemason and a candidate (providing he wins the WH in November) for the Illuminati.




I've tried to post this 3 times... something's going on here.
[&:]


The aluminum foil covering your windows could be an issue if you are using a wireless router. Or, the black helicopter might be jamming. If you use a cable line internet connection, the geek down the street downloading games 24/7 might be hogging the bandwidth. Otherwise, the problem must be you.[sm=error.gif]




1dblthnk02 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/13/2008 10:51:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Remember being the "Elect" doesn't preclude these people from temptation.

Certainly not. That is why Christ warned the disciples ahead of time.

quote:

Paul lamented about his struggles when he said, "For I do not do the good I want but I do the evil I do not want."

But do you think that Paul could have ever been tempted by a happy-happy-joy-joy doctrine wherein we don't pick up our cross and follow Him? Somehow I don't picture it.




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/13/2008 11:26:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL:1dblthnk02
I would think that the elect should have a little deeper faith than that. I would think that the great deception that Christ foretold would appeal to the elect's zealousness, not their laziness.

Who do you think the Church at Laodicea was? Were they Not of the elect, with a deeper faith, zealousness, and Not given to laziness? Yet Paul says to them: [8|] "I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments." (2:4) And, "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." (2:8).

quote:

But do you think that Paul could have ever been tempted by a happy-happy-joy-joy doctrine wherein we don't pick up our cross and follow Him? Somehow I don't picture it.

Of Course he could have -- he was human and a follower of Jesus, not a god.




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/13/2008 11:53:10 AM)

P.S. If you do not think this (being deceived, taken captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world) :
quote:

"I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments." (2:4) And, "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." (2:8).

is Not the Ultimate Conspiracy, I'd like to know what you think is.




1dblthnk02 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/13/2008 3:38:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
Who do you think the Church at Laodicea was?

Well, they weren't the church at Colosse; therefore, Paul's epistle to the Colossians (from which you quoted) cannot be deemed as a letter to the church in Laodicea.

quote:

Of Course he could have -- he was human and a follower of Jesus, not a god.

Does it require the superhuman efforts of a god to remain loyal to one's calling? Paul was the very picture of Christian zealousness, and I do find it hard to imagine him having been very easily distracted by some comfy, feel-good doctrine.

quote:

P.S. If you do not think this (being deceived, taken captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world) is Not the Ultimate Conspiracy, I'd like to know what you think is.

Well, for starters a conspiracy must, by definition, have conspirators at the helm. What Jesus warned his disciples about (Matthew 24:24) were false christs and false prophets showing great signs and wonders for the express purpose of deceiving the elect.
The ultimate conspiracy would be concocted and executed by religious leaders bent on leading the elect astray via great sings and wonders. Perhaps this is why Jesus said, more than once, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign."




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/13/2008 9:05:47 PM)

quote:

The ultimate conspiracy would be concocted and executed by religious leaders bent on leading the elect astray via great sings and wonders. Perhaps this is why Jesus said, more than once, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign."

Exactly, and how do they do that? By using deceit and taking even the elect captive, if it were possible, through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world.

That's all I got to say on this subject.




1dblthnk02 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/14/2008 10:46:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
Exactly, and how do they do that? By using deceit and taking even the elect captive, if it were possible, through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world.

That's all I got to say on this subject.

You and I apparently have very different operative definitions of signs and wonders. I personally cannot view a "hollow and deceptive philosophy which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world" as being anything remotely close to great signs and wonders.

Thus, the question does remain: how does it all tie in? A conspiracy aimed at God's elect by those who concoct great signs and wonders that can fool even the most faithful . . . I don't know. I don't think that we have seen anything quite like this yet.




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/14/2008 12:13:46 PM)

quote:

You and I apparently have very different operative definitions of signs and wonders. I personally cannot view a "hollow and deceptive philosophy which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world" as being anything remotely close to great signs and wonders.
Thus, the question does remain: how does it all tie in? A conspiracy aimed at God's elect by those who concoct great signs and wonders that can fool even the most faithful . . . I don't know. I don't think that we have seen anything quite like this yet.

I find this as just one Example of many:
The rhetoric concerning climate change continues to become more shrill, hysterical, and unreasonable. Here's the latest example from a person who should know better ...

quote:

U.K. Bishop Compares Those Who Ignore Climate Change to Austrian 'Horror Dad'

Monday, June 02, 2008
The Times Online

A senior bishop in the Church of England has compared people who ignore climate change to Josef Fritzl, the Austrian who kept his daughter locked in a cellar for 24 years, repeatedly raping her and fathering seven of her children.

The Bishop of Stafford, the Right Rev. Gordon Mursell, made the comparison in a parish "pastoral" newsletter and said that people who fail to act to prevent global warming are “as guilty as” Fritzl and “destroying the future of our children,” the Times of London reported Monday.

The bishop denied Monday that he was accusing those who ignore climate change of being child abusers, but said Fritzl was “the most extreme form” of a common selfish streak in humankind.

“In fact you could argue that, by our refusal to face the truth about climate change, we are as guilty as he is — we are in effect locking our children and grandchildren into a world with no future and throwing away the key,” he wrote in the letter entitled "following our dream," distributed around the Diocese of Lichfield.


To read the entire article:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,361403,00.html

There is a strong move afoot in media and academia and politics to define anyone who dares question that humans are directly responsible for a catastrophic and rapid global warming crisis as being "deniers," similar to Holocaust Deniers. Censorship and punitive actions are being considered or taken in Europe and even North America to "lock in" scientists and sociologists into this one narrow - and unproven - position.

In short, science has once more been hijacked and politicized.

And, just as it has on so many other fronts, the Church is now being more influenced by the world than visa versa. This "Right Reverend" is terribly wrong, in my opinion, and he is bullying and stifling discussion and debate, rather than facilitating honesty.




mapachito13 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/15/2008 8:16:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
Who do you think the Church at Laodicea was?

Well, they weren't the church at Colosse; therefore, Paul's epistle to the Colossians (from which you quoted) cannot be deemed as a letter to the church in Laodicea.


Does that mean that the message for Laodicea is not the people of the US? Then why did they put it in the Bible? To preserve a historical document?

quote:

Does it require the superhuman efforts of a god to remain loyal to one's calling? Paul was the very picture of Christian zealousness, and I do find it hard to imagine him having been very easily distracted by some comfy, feel-good doctrine.


No it requires a supernatural effort! To never cease praying and armor ourselves with faith!

You can't imagine Paul or any of the previous saints of God as falling because we have the end proof of their lives. Did they struggle? Yes! Paul confessed this in Romans 7:19. He confessed to doing "evil". His spirit and flesh were at war. And if he did "evil" he was definitely led astray!




1dblthnk02 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/15/2008 9:41:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Does that mean that the message for Laodicea is not the people of the US?

No, it means that Paul's epistle to the Colossians was aimed at the church in Colosse, not the church in Laodicea.

quote:

You can't imagine Paul or any of the previous saints of God as falling because we have the end proof of their lives.

I never said that I couldn't imagine them falling; certainly they had their failings. What I said was that I couldn't imagine someone with the zeal of Paul (certainly one of God's "elect") finding any appeal in a lame, feel-good church doctrine much less be deceived by it like Jesus warned.

quote:

Did they struggle? Yes! Paul confessed this in Romans 7:19. He confessed to doing "evil". His spirit and flesh were at war. And if he did "evil" he was definitely led astray!

I don't personally think that Paul was talking about himself in Romans 7; he was personifying the need for salvation in those who have sought and failed to find righteousness through the old law. In verse 1 he specifies, "I speak to them that know the law." By verse 24 when Paul appears to cry out, "Oh, wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" was Paul saying that he was not yet saved? No, Paul was illustrating the quandry that anyone who tries to follow the law will find themselves in. The answer is in verse 25: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."




1dblthnk02 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/15/2008 9:45:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
The rhetoric concerning climate change continues to become more shrill, hysterical, and unreasonable. Here's the latest example from a person who should know better ...

I don't understand why you brought this up. Are you saying that global warming is a conspiracy?




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/15/2008 11:06:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
The rhetoric concerning climate change continues to become more shrill, hysterical, and unreasonable. Here's the latest example from a person who should know better ...

I don't understand why you brought this up. Are you saying that global warming is a conspiracy?

Of Course I Am!! And those [Christians] who should know better are falling for this rhetoric hook line and sinker.
And Why do you think there is an on going Thread, on global warming, here in this Conspiracy Central Folder?
HERE




mapachito13 -> RE: The Ultimate Conspiracy (6/16/2008 8:12:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Does that mean that the message for Laodicea is not the people of the US?

No, it means that Paul's epistle to the Colossians was aimed at the church in Colosse, not the church in Laodicea.


You do realize that these letters although originally addressed to one church were circulated throughout the other churches because they recognized their implications for the entire church? That is why they eventually became part of the NT canon.

quote:

You can't imagine Paul or any of the previous saints of God as falling because we have the end proof of their lives.

I never said that I couldn't imagine them falling; certainly they had their failings. What I said was that I couldn't imagine someone with the zeal of Paul (certainly one of God's "elect") finding any appeal in a lame, feel-good church doctrine much less be deceived by it like Jesus warned.

quote:

Did they struggle? Yes! Paul confessed this in Romans 7:19. He confessed to doing "evil". His spirit and flesh were at war. And if he did "evil" he was definitely led astray!

I don't personally think that Paul was talking about himself in Romans 7; he was personifying the need for salvation in those who have sought and failed to find righteousness through the old law. In verse 1 he specifies, "I speak to them that know the law." By verse 24 when Paul appears to cry out, "Oh, wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" was Paul saying that he was not yet saved? No, Paul was illustrating the quandry that anyone who tries to follow the law will find themselves in. The answer is in verse 25: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."


Is this why in versed 13-25 he uses words like I, me, and my? It seems very clear through the language Paul uses that he is referring to himself.

Also verse 25 qualifies that he is following the law of God with his mind but he serves the law of sin with his flesh. He also refers to himself in verse 24 as a wretched man.




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