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Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 2:08:36 PM
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cynthia
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From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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My daughter has a friend who is supposedly homeschooled. Fact is that she isn't homeschooled at all. I have a very dim view of this girl's parents. The mother seems very unstable and the father seems cowed by the mother. The parents are not providing an education for their children.
I'll call my daughter's friend Alice. Alice is 15yo. She is mostly responsible for watching her five siblings and keeping house. Her life is miserable. Her mother yells and screams. The mother, I'll call her Joan, is one of the most defensive, high stress people I have ever met. I cannot stand to interact with her.
Due to these issues, my daughter's relationship with Alice has mostly been by phone. Alice shares lots of information with TL, including that fact that her mother refused to purchase a math book for her. She reads fine, but that is about all the education the girl has received. Basically she is a nanny and a maid for her mother.
The family moved to the East Coast last year, but are possibly coming back to Washington for the summer. They have been delayed due to serious illness. With this family, it is one thing after another. They are extremely disfunctional. They have been homeless, lived in travel trailers, had two major house fires (one two weeks ago). They are currenly living in a hotel near the hospital where one of their six children is, since their house has been condemned from the fire.
I know this is an odd post, but this family has disturbed me for years. I feel very sorry for their children, particularly the eldest who seems to have the weight of the world on her shoulders and is being denied an education. I am not going to call CPS, so don't even bother suggesting that. However, I am seriously considered directing my daughter to tell Alice to call CPS and let them know what is going on, if they come back here this summer. I am not willing to foster the girl, as she is a basket case and is extremely disruptive to our family life. However, I think she needs to try to either get out or at least to be placed in school.
If you didn't feel you ought to call CPS, what would you do in this situation? Would you encourage your child to tell Alice to call CPS about her situation? I have no idea what the homeschool laws are in New Jersey, but I do know they did not follow the law here.
I wanted to add that five of the six children have issues with LD's. Several of the have been part time in the school system and no one has ever taken notice of the severity of the situation.
ETA: I want to make clear that I do not want to discuss why I haven't called CPS and I do not want to discuss me calling them.
< Message edited by cynthia -- 6/11/2008 2:18:33 PM >
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 3:09:21 PM
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cynthia
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That might work. I really do not want to see the children removed from the home, but I do want to see the parents forced to do something about educating their children. I believe some of the children are being educated, but Alice clearly is not. I think at her age, she ought to be able to do something about her situation and should be empowered to do so.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 3:21:26 PM
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cynthia
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This is a really hard thread to try to get my point across in, because I don't want to go into my thoughts about CPS.
My concern is that now that Alice is 15yo, she should have some power over her life and be able to escape from the situation somehow. I do not want to see the family dismantled. I realize it is extremely disfunctional, but I think breaking them up would be even worse.
I want to be able to help my daughter to express an option to Alice. I don't like the idea of suggesting she call CPS and think that calling the school district would probably be a better choice. I am wondering if there is someplace else that she could call for help in leaving her home without being a runaway or turning to a dangerous situation. I fear that even if she were to get into school that she would not be allowed the opportunity to study. She will need to be able to study, as she is extremely behind where she ought to be academically.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 3:37:57 PM
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roligirl
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Does the girl have other family? Grandparents, aunts? I just think anytime a government agency gets into the loop, whether local school district or state services, things get worse. Maybe encouraging the daughter to go to another family member would be a step to take before involving CPS. Even if it were not the perfect situation, the other family might be better at an intervention than a government agency.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 3:45:29 PM
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Homegrownkids
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I realize that you don't really like to interact with this person. But, I would say that would be my answer. Things might look "rough" on the outside, but until you are in their home and REALLY know them, I would not call CPS.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 3:46:05 PM
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cynthia
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Well I do know that Joan's (Alice's mother) family is as bad as Joan. That's how Joan got to be the way she is. I don't think they are in contact with the paternal family. I can have my daughter check into this further.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 3:47:31 PM
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cynthia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Homegrownkids
I realize that you don't really like to interact with this person. But, I would say that would be my answer. Things might look "rough" on the outside, but until you are in their home and REALLY know them, I would not call CPS.
It is impossible to talk to the parents. I have tried to gently work into talking to her and she goes ballistic over the slightest thing. The father has been firmly spoken to by another man that I know of, but he doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to his wife on any level.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 3:56:33 PM
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cynthia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Homegrownkids
I realize that you don't really like to interact with this person. But, I would say that would be my answer. Things might look "rough" on the outside, but until you are in their home and REALLY know them, I would not call CPS.
Oh and I have been in their home several times and TL has heard Joan screaming and yelling at her kids, repeatedly. We aren't talking a bit of yelling, but hysteria. The woman totally loses it, which I think is one of the reasons that the oldest daughter is doing so much child care. As far as I know, Joan does not physically abuse her children. When she gets too upset, she hands off the kids to Alice.
< Message edited by cynthia -- 6/11/2008 4:02:57 PM >
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 4:17:28 PM
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PrincessDonna
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Ugh. I don't have a solution that doesn't involve CPS. We know a family who was not schooling their kids well at home and the grandparents did call CPS. After investigation, the family was ordered by a judge to put their kids in a school (either public or Christian). I personally think this was the best thing for this particular family, but know that there are some people who think NO ONE should be hsing too...which bring in the catch-22.
If you knew that CPS would not remove the children, but would require them (through a judge) to be in a school setting, would you call then?
_____________________________
God most definitely sees.
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen,
but on what is unseen. 2 Cor. 4:18
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 4:19:03 PM
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cynthia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
If you knew that CPS would not remove the children, but would require them (through a judge) to be in a school setting, would you call then?
Yes, I think I would.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 4:19:56 PM
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karlie
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I think if it were me, I'd feel obligated to report them. With all the work I've done with abused and neglected kids, I've found that what's known by those on the outside is usually just the tip of the iceberg. The screaming and hysteria combined with the other things are not good signs.
I'm truly not a fan of the way CPS handles things, and especially the way they overreact to home school families. But, if she's being denied math books and things she needs to get a proper eduction, and being forced to take over family responsibilities that should be her parents' jobs, something is wrong there. It's not her job to be the nanny and maid...she needs to be getting a solid education and it doesn't sound like that's happening there. It's abuse to deny an education, plain and simple. There's also the possibility that her opening up to your daughter is her way of crying out for someone to get involved and help. Kids are terrified of self-reporting and usually with good reason. I've seen it backfire drastically when the parents find that out.
I would have to report it and hope the investigation brings out the truth of what's really going on. It may be that they are just very dysfunctional and someone can offer them help or services to make things better. I would have a very hard time living with myself if I felt that burdened and did nothing. But, I think that's a judgment call. I don't think it's wrong to stay out of it since there is no solid abuse that you know of. I just think the whole situation sounds suspicious to me and I'd feel obligated to report it.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 4:26:41 PM
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cynthia
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From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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Thanks, Karlie.
I want to repeat, some of the kids are getting educated through the school system (at least part time) due to severe LD's. The main problem is that I think it's high time that something be done for Alice. I guess part of my issue her is that I'm thinking of what I would expect of my own children at fifteen. I'd expect them to do something about taking responsiblity for their lives, but that's because I have instructed them and helped them to become strong and healthy people. Alice hasn't had that, so I should not expect her to be able to assert herself.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 4:35:51 PM
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shadowspring
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Since every state's home schooling laws are different, I am not sure how to report educational neglect in Washington.
In Florida, one would call the Office of Student Accounting with concerns. The Office of Student Accounting would then send written notice asking to see the daily records of students work along with samples of the student work and a log of texts used in instruction. If you are legally home schooling in Florida, this is a snap to provide. You throw work in a box and drive down to the school board on your appointed day. They take one look at your box, and wave goodbye.
BUT if you are not truly home schooling, this usually sends the parents to the Office of Student Accounting confessing their "short-comings" and asking for help, which usually results in the child attending public or private school.
Our Florida support group worked with the Office of Student Accounting closely, and would send a veteran home schooler in with any new home schoolers needing a shoulder to lean on if they were called in for a visit. However we also felt as a support group that we had a vested interest in seeing truants claiming to home school being exposed. Truants claiming to be home schoolers can cause a lot of bad publicity for the rest of us.
I do not know how this would go in my current state. I suppose one would call the State Department of Non-public Education and express one's concerns about a particular family? I am not sure if they would actually schedule a home visit as they are entitled to by law, but even then all they can ask to see is attendance records, immunization records and annual results of standardized tests. However, this might even be a stretch for someone in total non-compliance with the law.
Homeschoolers who are bona fide teaching, including true unschoolers, should know the law and be in compliance with it, whatever it is in your state. So if it's not the purview of the public school, how about whatever agency is responsible for supporting the home school laws?
_____________________________
 "All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost..." -J. R. R. Tolkien
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 4:42:19 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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Boy, this sounds a lot like that family that was on wife swap. OOPS, I mean on Supernanny.
< Message edited by OneOfHisJewels -- 6/11/2008 5:15:30 PM >
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 4:46:25 PM
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Sunnymom
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cynthia,
Does the family attend church? Is there another couple in the area that could 'foster' the girl and get her through the next 3 years?
Also, there are Christian 'halfway' houses that take in troubled kids, but usually it is the parents that send them. I wonder if one would take in a girl who needed to get out of such an abusive/neglectful situation.
The problem with CPS is that if any children are removed, the foster system is often worse than the home, and children are more traumatized by the removal than by the abuse. It is heart-breaking and tragic, and there no easy answer to a situation like this.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 4:47:16 PM
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cynthia
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Yeah, I agree that fake homeschoolers give true homeschoolers a bad name.
I checked what HSLDA has to say about the homeschool law in New Jersey. No wonder they picked New Jersey. There are no reporting or testing requirements. It looks like a good state to homeschool in.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 4:52:42 PM
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cynthia
Posts: 7720
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From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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I read this thread to my dd. She said she could not imagine Alice ever calling the authorities. She looked at me like I had two heads at suggesting any child consider calling CPS or a school or anything like that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
cynthia,
Does the family attend church? Is there another couple in the area that could 'foster' the girl and get her through the next 3 years?
No. They used to attend a home church, but were held accountable and they fled. They couldn't find a church that agreed with their brand of religion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
The problem with CPS is that if any children are removed, the foster system is often worse than the home, and children are more traumatized by the removal than by the abuse. It is heart-breaking and tragic, and there no easy answer to a situation like this.
I agree.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 4:55:23 PM
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sen10tious
Posts: 362
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There HAS to be some alternative to CPS in your neck of the woods.
I think you ought to focus more on mental health resources than abuse or neglect stuff.
Our local Boys/Girls Town has a gem of a director who would know what to do without involving the courts or mandated reporters. Is there anything like that where you are? Their national number is 1-800-448-3000. I’d have your daughter call that number and ask about what is available for her friend before I’d risk calling the school who may be required to call CPS anyway.
There are several national teen hotlines with counselors who have at least a little training and are able to give referrals. Does anybody know what Covenant House is like? They advertise a “9 line” (phone number is mostly 9’s after the 1-800) for teens with family problems.
There is a national 1-800-runaway number if she is thinking of running away. Again I don’t know what kinds of help they offer, but they are supposed to help kids find alternatives to their problems. It might be a delicate needle to thread but if a kid enters the system as a runaway, sometimes the rest of the family can stay intact whereas if the same problems are reported as neglect, more stuff has to be investigated and the kids lose their parents.
We have some GED residential work-study programs in our state that would help with the education aspect, but they don’t kick here in until you've been a drop-out for a year and you can't drop-out before 16 here, so that might not be much help. Still you could check out what your state has.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 5:01:41 PM
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cynthia
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From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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I asked my daughter if there was any risk of her running away and she didn't think so. Alice has never suggested anything even remotely like that. She seems to be a very obedient daughter and more likely to take on too much responsiblity than to run away from it.
At the moment, I don't even know where the family is. They may have even left New Jersey, as the hospital may be in a different state than where they were living when their house burned up. I was hoping that I could have some plan and information when they come out here, so that if the girl could come see us, maybe we could find a way to help her while she's away from her mother.
Alice did say to my dd that they were going to see a therapist when they are here to help them deal with the first house fire, but now they are in transition after the second fire.
< Message edited by cynthia -- 6/11/2008 5:08:06 PM >
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 5:11:55 PM
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sen10tious
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She would not have to run away; just say she thought about it! She could be a "success" case for them. 
When will she turn 16? There is this Department of Labor program if she is serious about bettering herself.
http://jobcorps.dol.gov/about.htm
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 5:35:51 PM
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judii1
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I would try to figure out a way to get them help besides calling CPS.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/11/2008 9:25:11 PM
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Jenny-Fair
Posts: 6583
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From: WA
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Cynthia, what exactly are you hoping she'll get out of this? Do you just want her to have access to an education? Or do you want her mom to quit relying on her? Because I really don't think her mom will do that while she is in the home, but you can't remove her from the home without involving some agency or another.
I think I'd seriously consider putting together a curriculum for her that she could do herself, using used materials that I could afford or did not need anymore. If she can read, then she should be able to learn anything she needs to know.
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RE: Fake Homeschoolers - 6/12/2008 1:24:27 AM
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cynthia
Posts: 7720
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From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
Cynthia, what exactly are you hoping she'll get out of this? Do you just want her to have access to an education? Or do you want her mom to quit relying on her? Because I really don't think her mom will do that while she is in the home, but you can't remove her from the home without involving some agency or another.
I think I'd seriously consider putting together a curriculum for her that she could do herself, using used materials that I could afford or did not need anymore. If she can read, then she should be able to learn anything she needs to know.
Oy. Why did I start this thread? Maybe it's me that's nutty. As you are all asking questions and making suggestions, it's all coming together. The mother is extremely controlling. Everything has to be her way or not at all. If someone gives them curriculum, if it doesn't meet her standard, it gets tossed. The problem is that there isn't anything that would satisfy her. She is impossible to please.
I am hoping that the poor kid will actually get an education so she can support herself. With the current state of things, I don't know if she'll ever be able to work or have a chance at a positive life. I want her to get an education and be able to make decisions that are healthy. I don't know that I can do anything about that. This is my daughter's friend. TL really loves and cares for this girl.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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