RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (Full Version)

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FreeGrace -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 2:05:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

This whole thread is built on a false premise. That God does not hold infants accountable. Infants are wretched selfish sinners just like the rest of us.
I personally believe infants can be given faith just like the rest of us.

That's not the issue. Of course all men are sinful. The issue is accountability, which you have missed.

quote:

As Larry said earlier scripture is very vauge about this, but we can trust our God to do what is right and just.

It's not that vague. Throughout Scripture we see than men are held accountable. Can you demonstrate any support for infants or those severely mentally disabled to be able to understand, much less believe the gospel?

Yes, you can "claim" that God gives faith to infants, but you have no support, only your opinion. David's comment about his infant son is clear enough, but since it goes against your theology, you will not accept it.

If God "gives the faith", how do you explain the very clear warning that Jesus gave to a crowd of Jews in John 8:24: "unless you believe in Me, you will die in your sins." The only reason to give a warning is to allow that person to make some choices to avoid the danger being warning about. If God is the One who "gives the faith", it appears that Jesus was merely taunting these Jews to whom God never intended to believe. So, please explain.

However, your explanation is better suited on the C/A thread.



WholeHeart -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 5:59:35 PM)

I've heard that the Israelites in David's time did not have an idea of a personal afterlife, but that they considered their legacy (children and grandchildren to carry their name) to be the way that they continued to exist after death. David might simply have meant that he would join his infant son in the grave.

If you want to take an example from Ecclesiastes 3:19-21, "Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" (NIV)

Granted, David didn't write Ecclesiastes, and Solomon probably didn't actually write it, either. The author of it, though, was unsure of the future state of all humans, not just children.

Just trying to throw another wrench in the works.



bob97 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 9:17:56 PM)

In my view the OT does speak of eternal life through Christ but I don't think the people of Israel were able to see this event...they were looking for a earthly kingdom. I say this without a lot of study on the subject and maybe someone can fill in the blanks.

Bob



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 11:14:12 PM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: LXX

Dear sovereign....From John Gill "I shall go to him; to the state of the dead, to the grave, where his body was, or would be; to heaven and eternal happiness, where his soul was, as he comfortably hoped and believed: from whence it appears, that the Old Testament saints did not suppose an annihilation at death; but believed the immortality of the soul, a future state after death of eternal life and bliss:"

This is just one commentary....


The above states what I believe the verse speaks to in that David would eventuially follow his son, in contrast to the fact that his son was not comming back... I believe given who we are talking about, David it's safe to assume that he's going to heaven and I believe that make it's easy to assume the verse is speaking of heaven...

Even if one believes that to be so it's quite a leap to ascribe David situation to everyone... Is Pharaoh following his son?

quote:

Now, I don't follow your logic that when free will advocates believe that infant death is under the grace of God and they go to heaven you quickly define it as predestination? It is not playing both fields as you try to state it.


Those who believe in "free will" pound the drum that one must make a choice... God doesn't pick and chose man must make a choice, period... Ok... Mention infants and all the talk of choice is tossed out the window... They are saved by God... If infants are saved because they are infants God picked and chose them since He alone numbered their days... That is why I believe the argument(s) used for automatic infant salvation is bascially an argument for predestination given the fact that God ordaines the number of our days...


quote:

And when it come to your conclusion about having your children taken before the age of accountability so they might reach Heaven your statements are elementary in thinking on this subject.


And it's one reason I don't believe infants are automatically saved... As well we must account for the fact infants were put to the sword by Joshua and others like everyone else... Same goes for the flood... The wages of sin is death, so on what grounds did Joshua slay those who are said to be without sin? Did the sin of Adam make them worthy of the sword?

John



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 8:37:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark

There is also at least one other reference wherein God meted out punishment, but excluded some based upon age.

'None of the men who came up from Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob; for they did not follow Me fully, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Joshua the son of Nun, for they have followed the LORD fully.' (Numbers 32:11-12)

So God held those twenty and over accountable, but not those under that age. Since the people were to wander forty years in the wilderness that would make Joshua and Caleb at least sixty by the time they entered the land (they were specifically exempted, so they had to have been at least twenty at the time), their generation and the generations before died in the wilderness due to their rebellion...but those under twenty were not held accountable apparently due solely to their age.

If it were a matter of needing adults to fight (or numbers) God could have granted longer life to Joshua and Caleb and kept the people wandering for as long as it took, so it must be a matter of age.

I wouldn't use this to make dogmatic doctrines about what the age of accountability is...but it is an example of accountability by age.

Tim



Deuteronomy 1:39 ‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

This verse refers to the passage you are talking about. If you think about what tree Adam and Eve ate from... "Knowledge of Good and Evil" and that was what separated them from God. Then do you think children are not yet held accountable?



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 8:47:14 AM)

One more point, If you look at revelation, where John is talking about the Great White Throne and Judgement. The people who have not accepted Christ as their savior will be judged by their works. So in turn if they are judged by their works and technically they have not sinned, then that would allow them into heaven wouldn't it. Because they would be sinless?



bob97 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 10:04:00 AM)

Even the Catholic Church does not teach that works “save” in the way that Protestants view salvation, contrary to the hearsay that many Protestants believe. The Second Council of Orange stated that “If anyone says that … the beginning of faith … by which we arrive at the regeneration of holy baptism is not through the gift of grace, that is, … the Holy Spirit reforming our will … he is proved to be antagonistic to the doctrine of the Apostles.” Also, “If anyone affirms that without the illumination and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit … he can think anything good which pertains to the salvation of eternal life … or consent to salvation … he is deceived by the heretical spirit” (quoted from LumenGentleman Apologetics). Works are seen as having value because they are acts of obedience. They are not the cause of initial justification, but are a result of it.

One facing the judgment throne without faith might very well be rewarded based on their works but it is my opinion that the reward would be only a lesser degree of punishment.

Bob



URForgiven -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 10:14:15 AM)

Christians will be judged for works...but not for "our" works. The only works that matter are good works, and there is only One Who is good. The works we will be judged on will be those that Christ has done through us. All other works, no matter how 'good' they may appear, are merely wood, hay and stubble.

Peace



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 10:24:07 AM)

quote:

And it's one reason I don't believe infants are automatically saved... As well we must account for the fact infants were put to the sword by Joshua and others like everyone else... Same goes for the flood... The wages of sin is death, so on what grounds did Joshua slay those who are said to be without sin? Did the sin of Adam make them worthy of the sword?


SovereignIsHe,
Although you pose an interesting question as far as I see it is out of context. No doubt I wasn't too happy about reading that God would command that every living thing (including women and children) be killed in instances.
A couple of examples:
1. The Flood
2. In various battles fought in the Old Testament (but not ALL battles).

I don't know what specific battle you are speaking of in regards to Joshua but was Joshua's action God's judgment or was it a statement?
If you are talking about the battle of Jericho, it says "they devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys." (Joshua 6:21)
Did the animals sin too? Or was it a statement? Did it make more than one statement?

I would propose that Joshua was following God's instruction and desire. Perhaps that desire was a statement of God's holiness and Joshua's faith in God. I don't necessarily see this as an example of "judgment of sin".

God did say "Be Holy for I am Holy." Holiness is an on going theme in the Bible. The city of Jericho was not Holy. I suppose that one could take that as meaning it was only sinful, but I believe holiness is deeper than that.



sunofone -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 10:30:47 AM)

quote:

Those who believe in "free will" pound the drum that one must make a choice... God doesn't pick and chose man must make a choice, period... Ok... Mention infants and all the talk of choice is tossed out the window... They are saved by God... If infants are saved because they are infants God picked and chose them since He alone numbered their days... That is why I believe the argument(s) used for automatic infant salvation is bascially an argument for predestination given the fact that God ordaines the number of our days...
This point is so key to the argument of freewill vs predestination.In fact the op's question can not be answered without addressing this point.



FREELUTH -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 10:31:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

This whole thread is built on a false premise. That God does not hold infants accountable. Infants are wretched selfish sinners just like the rest of us.
I personally believe infants can be given faith just like the rest of us.

That's not the issue. Of course all men are sinful. The issue is accountability, which you have missed.

quote:

As Larry said earlier scripture is very vauge about this, but we can trust our God to do what is right and just.

It's not that vague. Throughout Scripture we see than men are held accountable. Can you demonstrate any support for infants or those severely mentally disabled to be able to understand, much less believe the gospel?

Yes, you can "claim" that God gives faith to infants, but you have no support, only your opinion. David's comment about his infant son is clear enough, but since it goes against your theology, you will not accept it.

If God "gives the faith", how do you explain the very clear warning that Jesus gave to a crowd of Jews in John 8:24: "unless you believe in Me, you will die in your sins." The only reason to give a warning is to allow that person to make some choices to avoid the danger being warning about. If God is the One who "gives the faith", it appears that Jesus was merely taunting these Jews to whom God never intended to believe. So, please explain.

However, your explanation is better suited on the C/A thread.


You are right the whole choice argument is for another thread. If you want to believe sinners must save themselves by making a choice that is fine. I do believe David believed he would see his son in the next life because he believed God saved his son by giving him faith in God's promises to save by sending a Savior.

As for infants being able to trust God. Some of the Passages are Psalms 22: 9-10. The writer of the Psalm trusted in God at his mothers breast and from the womb God was his God. Then we have John the Baptizer leaping in the womb when the savior was near. Psalms 71: 5-6 talk about nearly the same thing.

Then we also have Psalms 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb;they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Looks like some infants trusted God and some did not. Will God hold those who do not trust in him (Jesus) accountable ?? I do not have an answer for that. I do trust that God will do the right and just thing.



FreeGrace -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 11:02:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH
quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
If God "gives the faith", how do you explain the very clear warning that Jesus gave to a crowd of Jews in John 8:24: "unless you believe in Me, you will die in your sins." The only reason to give a warning is to allow that person to make some choices to avoid the danger being warning about. If God is the One who "gives the faith", it appears that Jesus was merely taunting these Jews to whom God never intended to believe. So, please explain.
However, your explanation is better suited on the C/A thread.

You are right the whole choice argument is for another thread. If you want to believe sinners must save themselves by making a choice that is fine.

I've never said that and I don't believe that. I've always said that God saves believers. Do you see the very clear difference?

quote:

As for infants being able to trust God. Some of the Passages are Psalms 22: 9-10. The writer of the Psalm trusted in God at his mothers breast and from the womb God was his God. Then we have John the Baptizer leaping in the womb when the savior was near. Psalms 71: 5-6 talk about nearly the same thing.
Then we also have Psalms 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb;they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

So, infants lie? Hm. I've never been able to make out anything that comes out of the mouth of babies. Have you? So, don't you think these verses need some latitude in understanding? There isn't any baby who speaks from birth.

quote:

Looks like some infants trusted God and some did not. Will God hold those who do not trust in him (Jesus) accountable ?? I do not have an answer for that. I do trust that God will do the right and just thing.

I think the answer is found by understanding that God has made Himself evident to everyone (Rom 1) and no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him. Cornelius is an example of an unbeliever who did recognize and honor God by the description of him as God fearing (reverencing) and continually praying to Him. The result was that God answered those prayers, which fulfills the promise of 2 Chron 15:2, Heb 11;6 and Acts 17:27. Those who seek God will find Him.

When people develop intellectually, at some point God makes Himself "evident" to them. At that point, they have no excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him. From Cornelius's story, he apparently did recognize God and began to seek Him through prayer, which was answered through Peter's message.

So everyone is accountable, because has made Himself evident to everyone. Those who recognize and seek Him will be found by Him, per Jer 29:13, 14.



COME_AND_SEE -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 11:18:48 AM)

It seems to me that one can only be accountable for what they know and have been taught concerning truths and realities. How accountable should a newborn (or unborn) be concerning sin (right and wrong)? Paul says in Rom 7:9 "And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died" NASB. The commandment Paul is talking about is the last of the 10, "Do not covet...", which to me is broken by old and young alike. This commandment had been around long before Paul was born and he most likely became acquainted with it and understood it when he was a child. But Paul's point appears to be that before he truly understood that wanting selfishly to take little Suzy's baby rattle or little Johnny's milk bottle was coveting (and thus sinful) that he was truly alive according to righteousness even though he was born having Adam's sin nature along with its consequences. But Paul's accountability and "death" came when he learned from Paul Senior that wanting other children's things was a violation of God's universal law. If this is correct then it will also explain what was said before concerning eating of the tree of "The KNOWLEDGE of Good & Evil". It didn't matter what physical fruit was on the true but God held Adam accountable for the knowledge He gave him of breaking His only rule of the Garden and thus dying the very day that he ate of it.



bob97 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 11:29:27 AM)

quote:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Do we live under the new covenant? Are the laws of God written in everyone’s heart or only the elect?

I know I'm treading on thin ice here but this gets to the heart of the matter.


Bob



sunofone -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 12:18:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Do we live under the new covenant? Are the laws of God written in everyone’s heart or only the elect?

I know I'm treading on thin ice here but this gets to the heart of the matter.


Bob

This too is a poignant question and as you say gets to the heart of the matter.I think this question is easier to answer and digest than the question of whether infants are held accountable for sin;but to answer one question,is to answer the other from my view.



sunofone -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 1:16:00 PM)

quote:

Do we live under the new covenant? Are the laws of God written in everyone’s heart or only the elect?


For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.


It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." 10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac.


This is the account of Abraham's son Isaac. Abraham became the father of Isaac, 20 and Isaac was forty years old when he married Rebekah daughter of Bethuel the Aramean from Paddan Aram and sister of Laban the Aramean. 21 Isaac prayed to the Lord on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. The Lord answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. 22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, "Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the Lord. 23 The Lord said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger."

In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." 10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."


Ex 11:1 - Show Context
Now the Lord had said to Moses, "I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt. After that, he will let you go from here, and when he does, he will drive you out completely. So Moses said, "This is what the Lord says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. 6 There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt--worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. 7 But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any man or animal.' Then you will know that the Lord makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.

Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb. 22 Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. Not one of you shall go out the door of his house until morning. 23 When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down. 24 "Obey these instructions as a lasting ordinance for you and your descendants. 25 When you enter the land that the Lord will give you as he promised, observe this ceremony. 26 And when your children ask you, 'What does this ceremony mean to you?' 27 then tell them, 'It is the Passover sacrifice to the Lord, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.'" Then the people bowed down and worshiped. 28 The Israelites did just what the Lord commanded Moses and Aaron.
29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 33 They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.

1 "I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3 The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.

4 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Scripture show who God regards as his children,who are of the covenant and those who are not.It is also clear as to end result of those who are not his.The choosing is God's not mans.Man merely responds to the Shepherds call.



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 1:56:22 PM)

I think a good point to make here is this:
If the Bible is translated through the view of Calvinism or Arminianism it totally changes the meaning of many verses.
While the debate over Arminianist and Calvinist will continue those on both sides of the issue must acknowledge that fact.

These forums are full of ongoing debates, arguments and shouting matches. Perhaps it would be wise to view the conversations in a similar way we read the book of Job.

Job's friends said a lot of truthful things in the pages of Job, but they were totally in error as how they were translating those attributes of the God they spoke of.

I think we are ALL guilty of the same in this debate and most of the others.
So how about salvation for those who are un-accountable?
There is ONLY one answer and that is God will himself handle it in justice. As will he judge us all. Beyond that we have no right to impose our tainted hermeneutic attempts and devices on others.

Scripture cannot be translated or applied in accurate correctness if we try to approach it with a feminist hermeneutic, homosexual hermeneutic, armenian hermeneutic, or calvan hermeneutic.

Most of us, including myself, would do well to keep sharpening our reading skills and read the Bible as it was written to it's original recipients.

Again as for the salvation of the un-accountable..there are none that will be held un-accountable. So isn't the issue mute?

For it is appointed to a man once to die and then the judgment.



sunofone -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 1:59:40 PM)

In regards to the op,I believe we as children of God must have theological integrity.It's tough to see things as God sees it,to love what he loves,and to hate what he hates.

Nothing cuts closer than the love we feel for our own family.The thought that a loved one would be eternally separated from God for most if not all is unbearable.

Many who refuse,or can not deal with this reality have created or accepted the doctrine of God saves all.The thought that God could negatively judge any is so unbearable,that many who hold this doctrine to be true,have admitted that if God did not save all,that they would not serve him.

Fact is many have come to accept UR out of concern for loved ones.As for me,I hope that God will indeed save all,and seeing that I am human and don't know everything,I hope I'm wrong when I say that I don't see God saving everyone,including,infants,mentally impaired,spiritually deaf,blind and dead.

The only thing I see right now and is confirmed in scripture and my spirit,is that it is the Fathers right to choose.It is his choosing,his good pleasure that I might be called a child of his,not mine.

If I love God at all,it is not because of me be,rather it is because he first loved me.God's choosing is first,my response is secondary.Fact is God draws,DRAGS,us to him.

None of us woke up one day and decided of our own will that today would be as good a day as any to choose God.If we say so than we make God a liar,because he says there are none who seek,or choose him.

Jesus says those that are his are the ones the Father chose for him.The beautiful thing about adoption is that the adopter hand picks the child.Natural birth you get what you get.If you birth a son,you get a son.

God is the adopter,he chooses those that are his,he is not a passive recipient of those of us who chose him.He has chosen us first,then we have responded to his choosing.

God operates by laws,one law is the law of sowing and reaping.

How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. 42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

God through the law of sowing and reaping has already declared that he will reap spiritual children.The seed that is sown is bound to the laws that command it.

We are Gods seed those of us who are his,and we will be his harvest,it is guaranteed.It is the Lord's doing not the seeds,the Lord's.



bob97 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 2:09:14 PM)

quote:


There is ONLY one answer and that is God will himself handle it in justice. As will he judge us all. Beyond that we have no right to impose our tainted hermeneutic attempts and devices on others.

In the final analysis that is totally correct…it is up to God to make that judgment, according to His will. We get all wrapped up in these issues because we let human emotion rule and to us anything other that what we see as being moral is just unfair.

We can interpret and make guesses but who are we to know the will of God.

Bob



sunofone -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 2:33:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:


There is ONLY one answer and that is God will himself handle it in justice. As will he judge us all. Beyond that we have no right to impose our tainted hermeneutic attempts and devices on others.

In the final analysis that is totally correct…it is up to God to make that judgment, according to His will. We get all wrapped up in these issues because we let human emotion rule and to us anything other that what we see as being moral is just unfair.

We can interpret and make guesses but who are we to know the will of God.

Bob

While I can both understand and agree with this in principal,I think the only danger with this,is applying it broadly.

That is to conclude that everything is relative.If this is the case then no one has moral authority,the Christian can not declare that Jesus is the way the truth and the life,because we could just be applying that verse to literally.Since we're all morally tainted then our understanding of that verse is tainted therefore it doesn't have to mean what we think it means.

By this standard the bible can not be relied upon to be the final authority of Gods will.Because even though the bible says what it means and means what it says we as tainted individuals can not appraise it properly to tell anyone what it means.So it means what it means to everyone equally,and no one can claim that there view is more accurate than the next,and how dare we attempt to teach absolutes.

By this slippery slope,we have no right to judge the UR,or Jehovah witness,etc..The bible has to be the final authority,and if it is not then it should forever be thought of as just a good book,that has some overall good things to consider.

This is not to say that any of us knows everything,or has the truth,or answer to every or any question that can ever be thought of.It is just to say that in drawing conclusions as to what God wills or requires we have to consult the word for guidance,and allow it to answer for itself.

The post I offered about the question of Gods new covenant I provided scripture with very little commentary.It is as I said earlier disturbing to our sensibilities to see things as bluntly as God declares them.This is where our tainted selves run into trouble.

The bible is not nearly as muddled as some like to make it.It is in many cases blunt and unapologetic.It is offensive,it presents stumbling blocks of all sorts.God has always promised that through all of this that those that are his will hear his voice and a stranger,I.E. strange doctrine,teacher they will not follow.

There do exist those who both hear and understand the voice of there shepherd,to say or suggest otherwise is again to make God a liar and a dysfunctional parent,who is simply unable to articulate his will and plan in a way that his children can understand him.

I know we all know that this can not be!



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 2:56:50 PM)

Here is a truth:

The Bible is full of examples in how God chose to deal with many individuals.

Did he chose to deal with all of them in the same way?

Did all of them respond to his treatment the same way?

When those two question are answered it can open a whole new world to what the Bible reveals about God instead of the attributes we have forced upon Him in flawed doctrines and theologies.

Of course there are absolute answers to many of our questions. The problem occurs when we try to make God in our image, that is the image we most see him fit. Why not let God be who He is?

I'll give an example when it comes to interpretation issues.

quote:

Though you grind a fool in a mortar,
grinding him like grain with a pestle,
you will not remove his folly from
him.


One conclusion could be:

A fool can't change.

Another:

You can't change a fool.

Yet another:

A fool can never learn to be wise

Which one of these is correct?



Heavendweller -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 3:21:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunofone
We are Gods seed those of us who are his,and we will be his harvest,it is guaranteed.It is the Lord's doing not the seeds,the Lord's.

Sunofone,
So your point about the destination of infants is:

a. No one knows, only God.

b. Infants are wicked sinners (like all mankind) and under the penalty of such, until they come to belief and faith in Christ. Since babies are capable of belief and faith, therefore those infants who are predestined to having saving faith and belief go to Heaven. We just don't know which ones they are, only God. However, since all God's children are predestined, and all who are predestined are given belief and faith, but not all are saved, not all infants will be saved and go to Heaven.

c. All men are held accountable for sin, and sin entails having the knowledge of good and evil and being able to choose what is good v.s. evil (Gen account of the tree). Therefore, since infants do not have the capacity to understand good from evil, God in his mercy does not hold them accountable for sin, since they do not actually sin.

d. All men are held accountable for sin and under the wrath of God and separated from God. Therefore, babies are born in utter sin as is all mankind. They have inherited the sin of Adam and are capable of actually sinning and do commit sin, and this means they are all damned until they come to faith in Christ. They are not able to come to faith in Christ until they are cognizant of their sin. Therefore, since they are born in utter sin and held accountable for Adam's sin, they are all damned, since none have the ability to believe and confess faith in Christ.

e. All infants are protected under the grace and mercy of Christ, until they come to the knowledge of good and evil and are able to be held accountable for their sin. Therefore, all infants go to Heaven because Christ said, "to such belong the Kingdom of Heaven." Our Lord Jesus Christ is merciful and compassionate and will not send innocent infants to hell because they have not rejected Christ.

f. Babies who are baptized in the name of the triune God will go to Heaven. However, we do not know the fate of those babies who are not baptized through no fault of their own. We entrust them to a loving, merciful and just God. But if infants are baptized, they most certainly will go to Heaven.

g. Since baptizm is a sign and seal that one is a child of God, unless infants are baptized in the name of the triune God, they are damned to Hell. Thus, those who die in the womb or are aborted are not children of God and do not go to Heaven.

h. All mankind is under the wrath of God from the time they have entered the womb. Only belief and faith in Christ can free a person from the wrath of God. Since infants inside and outside of the womb cannot demonstrate belief or faith of any kind, if they die, they are most certainly predestined to and damned to hell.

i. None of the above.

Ok, I started getting dizzy just posting all the above options. And I'm sure some may seem redundant, and probably there are several options I haven't included.

What I am requesting Sonofone, is that you be a bit forth coming and direct. What do YOU think happens to infants?

Heavendweller

BTW, I'm inclined to go with the e. choice.



zoebob -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 3:30:35 PM)

b

I would add that since God tends to work in families and we are told that the unbelieving are sanctified by the believing that the children of at least one believing parent are most likely also chosen.



Heavendweller -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 3:40:29 PM)

Oh boy, I just thought of some more choices.

j. As to the eternal destination of infants, the answer is in Holy Scripture, it just hasn't been revealed to mankind as of yet.

k. The answer is no where to be found in Holy Scripture, and therefore the destination of infants is unknown and cannot be known while we reside on this earth. This would go under the heading of "the secret things belong to the Lord our God."

l. There a special place revealed for infants who have not been regenerated by the life of Christ. It is neither Heaven nor hell, but rather could be compared to the ancient teaching on "Limbo."

m. Everyone goes to Heaven. There is no such place as hell.

Anyone can feel free to add to the list.

Heavendweller



Heavendweller -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/14/2008 3:51:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zoebob

b

I would add that since God tends to work in families and we are told that the unbelieving are sanctified by the believing that the children of at least one believing parent are most likely also chosen.

Zoe,

Are you saying your choice is b? Oh boy, I'll need to add a few more to the list of choices.

n. Infants of believers are going to Heaven, but infants of unbelievers are going to hell.

o. Infants of believers are going to Heaven, unless the infant of the unbelievers is baptized. In this case the infant of the unbelievers will go to Heaven.

BTW, there are people who have believed this way (o choice), and will make sure to have a child baptized without the knowledge of the parents. This might be a situation such as parents who have children who have deconverted from the Christian faith and do not have their children baptized. Thus the grandparents or someone else in the family will have the infant/s baptized secretly.

Heavendweller



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