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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 7:29:18 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/11/2006
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John,
I also believe that God will have mercy on who he will have mercy. That is a true statement in which we can agree on.
It is interesting however that you say that understanding the gospel isn't based on intellect (which a agree) but then you add the stipulation that God hasn't granted the ability for a person to understand. It seems you are pointing towards spiritual discernment. I can agree with that too.
I suppose my question is this...do you really think that you understand God? Do you really think that any one can?
If understanding God is a requirement for being saved (in this case God revealed understanding) then I'm out. Because I just can't fully grasp Him.
It is clear that I do not understand Scripture as you understand it. If your statements are true then God would have revealed the same "understanding" to me.
In the end if God is "sovereign" then he is responsible for either so many of us headed for eternal damnation because He hasn't chosen us to be part of Him limited atonement, or in His "sovereignty" He has decided that He will not reveal himself to us (such as myself).
In the end if God must reveal understanding about Himself and you must be granted this understanding through Him then that apparently means I'm headed for Hell...because I just don't see Him in the light you do.
So I stand judged, a sinner and on the way to eternal Hell.
The God I see revealed within the pages of the Bible is a BIG GOD. A God that I will never be able to understand in the capacity of my human thought and a God that I will only be able to understand in the limitations of this human experience through my spiritual eyes.
Maybe one day He will reveal himself to me as he has you and others. Until then, if what you say is true then I stand condemned and atonement is not for me.
I hope you understand the implications of that explanation of God. One of us is right, or both of us are wrong. I bet we both share misunderstandings of who God is.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 7:30:24 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 495
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Man isn't born with the means to believe... So everyone should be saved right?
Because all men are sinners who are spiritually dead, God has made provision through the preaching of the Gospel and the working of the Holy Spirit to bring saving faith to human hearts (Rom. 1:16;10:17). Only those who believe and repent receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and are saved (Acts 2:38-41; 3:19,20;10:44-48).
God has commanded that the Gospel be preached to "every creature" (Mk. 16:15,16) and He now commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). That is why the Bible speaks of "obedience to the Gospel".
All those capable of "hearing" the Gospel will be held accountable for either believing or not believing it (Mk. 16:15,16; Jn.3:36; 20:31).
However, Scripture has not stated what God will do about those incapable of "hearing" or understanding the Gospel (which has already in published in every known language). God has His reasons for not disclosing this, but that does not imply that He has made no provision, since God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son (Jn. 3:16).
Since infants are incapable of acknowledging that they are sinners in need of the Savior, and cannot respond to the Gospel, if they die God has made some provision for them through the atoning work of Christ, since He is the Righteous Judge. What we do know without the shadow of a doubt is that the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost, and He also took away the sin of the world. That should be sufficient.
This is essentially a poor mans UR message.It's a UR message without all of the benefits.It's flat out saying that Jesus death atoned for all, so that those incapable of acknowledging that they are sinners and can not due to no fault of their own will be covered by Christ atoning death.Yet you don'e see that intellect is not the key to being able to knowing your a sinner.
No man can of himself come to this awareness,if he could than men would have reason to boast.They could boast that they had the good sense to hear the gospel,choose life while others didn't.
This is flat out in direct contradiction of scripture.Jesus says that he is the way the truth and the life.There are not multiple ways,but one way.He is the gate.NO man can come to him and thereby come through him the gate,except the father draw him,draw literally means to drag.
So in slow motion this is what we are left with.Jesus is the one and only way to get to the Father,and the Father is the only one capable of dragging a man to Jesus.Where is man capable of coming to Jesus by means of a quality exercising of Judgment?
Once God affects a man's heart opens up his eyes and ears,that man than gladly thanks him for showing him the blinding light of truth and then gladly chooses him back.
Paul we know was a sincere man who persecuted the Christians,this he did in ignorance.What stopped Paul from continuing on this path?We all know it.It was God confronting him directly,blinding with the glorious light of Jesus Christ.Once God did this it literally stopped him in his tracks,reversing his direction.
Did God make him a zombie after this interaction? Did he swt him a trance making it impossible for him to continue on his original course of action? By all means no!Paul who was sincere and well meaning to begin with,gladly followed God down the correct path.
The point is God initiated and caused this change of heart,as Paul had no way of doing it himself.
Paul heard the message through Stephen being preached before he was stoned and no he was not converted by hearing the word of God.Why did God go to the extra mile to ensure that Paul received this message.
Because God does this for every believer that comes to him.He reveals himself to us in personal ways that are undeniable.To know him is to love him.You can't possibly come to really know God personally,deeply profoundly,and then say like Agrippa,You almost persuaded me to be a Christian, anymore than you can look into the love f your life and I quite nearly love you,but all I can honestly muster right now,if I'm being completely honest,is that I like you a lot.
Becoming a Christian is not a cold calculated sanitary process where one wakes up one day able to make a rational decision to love God.We don't even love each other that way. Love is not making a rational decision,it is at the heart,a heart decision.Love overtakes us,sweeps us off our feet.When we would rather be cool and calculated we find ourselves helplessly in love with the object of our affection.
This too is true for God.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 7:42:25 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
The point of referencing John 11:25-27 in the sentence I provided is my sentence contains the very words of Jesus when talking to Martha. Here is the passage:
Jesus said to her, "I am the recurrection and the file; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? She said to him, "yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."
The reason I was not dealing with the 3 sentences you provided is that they weren't relevant (specific) to the issue. I provided my sentence to address specifically the issue.
Again, what is in my sentence from post #139 that you disagree with? Here it is again:
"I died for all of you so that you don't have to, even though all of you are guilty of sin. Whoever believes on Me will not die (John 11:25-27). Whosoever does not believe in Me will die in their sins (John 8:24)."
John 8:24 is a direct warning that Jesus gave a crowd of Jews. What is the point of giving a warning if the ones warned are unable to do anything about it? That is one of the questions that reformed theology cannot answer properly.
Thanks. Thanks for clarifying that for me FG.Here's my direct answer and then I must provide some commentary  Sorry! I know I can be wordy,I'll try to work on that.LOL
Much appreciated!
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I disagree with the first part of your sentence.
Could you clarify here?
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Jesus was telling Martha that if you believe in me,I can raise your brother back from the dead.Mary believed that Jesus could ask his father to do this and God would grant his request,she had no idea that Jesus himself was capable of raising Lazarus.
I think you misunderstand the passage. It is very clear: Jesus said: "he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies". The "he" refers to "whosoever", not just Martha, as you are claiming. Jesus even goes further by saying: "everyone (whosoever) believes in Me shall never die". That was my point and support for the sentence I provided for you to comment on, which you haven't yet. 
quote:
This is the literal interpretation of this verse.Now applying it more broadly,Jesus is saying to those who believe in me,not all people,exclusively those who believe in me,though they die physically,yet will they live,and in this believing the one who is living, physically alive will never die,spiritually that is obviously not physically.
I've never claimed that all people will believe in Him. Quite obviously, not all will.
quote:
Here again is reality.If Jesus death atoned,payed the penalty for all,then all are saved.Period,end of discussion,let's join forces with the UR and call it a day.
Your claim is empty. You simply are not grasping that salvation can be paid for, yet those for who it is paid for won't get it. According to John 1:12 we receive when we believe. It's been paid, but it is delivered upon believing. Period. End of discussion.
quote:
If on the other hand his death although effective enough to cover all people in fact covers only those who believe.Then it is correct to say that Jesus death was for believers only,not everybody.
As I've said, He died for everyone and those who believe will be saved, as the Bible states.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 7:49:29 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
When it comes to those who are incapable of responding to the Gospel, we must be clear that Christ was the propitiation for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.
Aren't people judged worthy of hell for not believing?
how can one be judged worthy of hell for not being able to believe?
Exactly. God is a righteous Judge, and Christ has made full atonement for every sinner. Do we really understand what Christ accomplished on the Cross, and do we really understand the heart of God?
The above is based on the idea that intellect is key to salvation... Man isn't born with the means to believe... So everyone should be saved right?John
It is based squarely on what Scripture has revealed to us.
We know from Romans 1 that "everything that is known about God has been made evident to men because God made it evident to them. Hence, no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring God. Cornelius, as an unregenerate unbeliever (redundant, I know ) both recognized and honored God through reverence and continual prayer to Him, from Acts 10. He is an example of those who, unlike those in Romans 1, didn't suppress the truth that God made evident. On the contrary, he sought God, and as the Scripture promises (2 Chron 15:2, Heb 11:6) he found God.
So, you are correct that intellect is important, for no one can believe what they do not understand or grasp, the good news (gospel) is that God created man in His image and He has made evident to man who He is. Those who seek Him will find Him. It's that simple.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 7:51:44 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
The above is based on the idea that intellect is key to salvation... Man isn't born with the means to believe... So everyone should be saved right?
John My point exactly John.If infants are granted salvation on the basis of them being unable to choose,then we need to keep adding to the list.Mentally handicapped,spiritually blind,death,Oh shucks that includes everybody doesn't it!
Not so fast! Those who are "spiritually blind" are so because they don't pay attention. It's their own fault.
Romans 1 contradicts your view that everyone is "spiritually blind", because "everything that is known about God has been made evident to men by God". That's why no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 8:00:15 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Man isn't born with the means to believe... So everyone should be saved right?
Because all men are sinners who are spiritually dead, God has made provision through the preaching of the Gospel and the working of the Holy Spirit to bring saving faith to human hearts (Rom. 1:16;10:17). Only those who believe and repent receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and are saved (Acts 2:38-41; 3:19,20;10:44-48).
God has commanded that the Gospel be preached to "every creature" (Mk. 16:15,16) and He now commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). That is why the Bible speaks of "obedience to the Gospel".
All those capable of "hearing" the Gospel will be held accountable for either believing or not believing it (Mk. 16:15,16; Jn.3:36; 20:31).
However, Scripture has not stated what God will do about those incapable of "hearing" or understanding the Gospel (which has already in published in every known language). God has His reasons for not disclosing this, but that does not imply that He has made no provision, since God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son (Jn. 3:16).
Since infants are incapable of acknowledging that they are sinners in need of the Savior, and cannot respond to the Gospel, if they die God has made some provision for them through the atoning work of Christ, since He is the Righteous Judge. What we do know without the shadow of a doubt is that the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost, and He also took away the sin of the world. That should be sufficient.
How manys "plans" of salvation are there? You have one for mankind and one for infants...
There is only one plan. Christ died to save sinners. Everyone is a sinner. God's plan is to give salvation to everyone who believes, and if you simply reject those who are unable to believe from His plan from salvation, that is not God's problem. He has made full provision for saving everyone in the human race. And His plan requires man to believe. Therefore, those who never reach the ability to understand, and therefore either believe or reject, are not accountable, which is what this thread is about. So, they are saved on the basis of the blood of Christ. God's plan is simple and gracious. No one deserves to be saved.
quote:
The abilitiy to understand the gospel isn't about intellect it's about God's to choice to show mercy or not...
We know from Scripture that God's choice is to give eternal life to those who believe. And that is completely by grace, since even believers do not deserve it.
quote:
The person with the highest IQ is as dumb as a newborn regarding the truth of God's word if God doesn't grant the ability for that person to understand...
Romans 1 tells us that God has made Himself evident to man, so that no one has an excuse. So, God has granted to everyone the ability to recognize and honor Him. Those who do are given more "evidence", as the life of Cornelius illustrates quite well.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 8:07:46 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Man isn't born with the means to believe... So everyone should be saved right?
Because all men are sinners who are spiritually dead, God has made provision through the preaching of the Gospel and the working of the Holy Spirit to bring saving faith to human hearts (Rom. 1:16;10:17). Only those who believe and repent receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and are saved (Acts 2:38-41; 3:19,20;10:44-48).
God has commanded that the Gospel be preached to "every creature" (Mk. 16:15,16) and He now commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). That is why the Bible speaks of "obedience to the Gospel".
All those capable of "hearing" the Gospel will be held accountable for either believing or not believing it (Mk. 16:15,16; Jn.3:36; 20:31).
However, Scripture has not stated what God will do about those incapable of "hearing" or understanding the Gospel (which has already in published in every known language). God has His reasons for not disclosing this, but that does not imply that He has made no provision, since God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son (Jn. 3:16).
Since infants are incapable of acknowledging that they are sinners in need of the Savior, and cannot respond to the Gospel, if they die God has made some provision for them through the atoning work of Christ, since He is the Righteous Judge. What we do know without the shadow of a doubt is that the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost, and He also took away the sin of the world. That should be sufficient.
This is essentially a poor mans UR message.It's a UR message without all of the benefits.It's flat out saying that Jesus death atoned for all, so that those incapable of acknowledging that they are sinners and can not due to no fault of their own will be covered by Christ atoning death.Yet you don'e see that intellect is not the key to being able to knowing your a sinner.
You are ignoring the fact that God has made Himself evident to all, so that no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him, as Cornelius clearly demonstrates.
You are also ignoring the issue of accountability. But I understand that, since in your theological system, there is no accountability. God merely saves some apart from any criteria, even though Scripture is very clear that man is saved by grace through faith.
quote:
No man can of himself come to this awareness,if he could than men would have reason to boast.They could boast that they had the good sense to hear the gospel,choose life while others didn't.
Again, you ignore Romans 1 where God has made Himself evident to all. So of course no one can "claim" they came to this awareness on their own or even boast about it. So your "claim" is empty.
quote:
This is flat out in direct contradiction of scripture.Jesus says that he is the way the truth and the life.There are not multiple ways,but one way.He is the gate.NO man can come to him and thereby come through him the gate,except the father draw him,draw literally means to drag.
Maybe you are unaware that the Septuagint uses "helkuo" is used to mean "woo". Just like the English word "draw" can be used either way.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 8:34:55 AM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
Joined: 1/14/2008
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I once heard a sermon by Paul Washer where he said: "I do not know what happens to little babies who die - whether they go directly to Heaven or not. But I do know this, God holds providence over everything, and whatever happens to that child is the BEST thing that COULD happen to that child because God has done it."
Amen.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 8:43:20 AM
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thorkraki
Posts: 102
Joined: 6/17/2008
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Amen PromiseLander! I am too new to this to follow all of these debates, but I have the faith that you write of, that God will do what is right, just, and best. Thor
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 9:18:47 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 495
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
Here again is reality.If Jesus death atoned,payed the penalty for all,then all are saved.Period,end of discussion,let's join forces with the UR and call it a day.
Your claim is empty. You simply are not grasping that salvation can be paid for, yet those for who it is paid for won't get it. According to John 1:12 we receive when we believe. It's been paid, but it is delivered upon believing. Period. End of discussion.
quote:
If on the other hand his death although effective enough to cover all people in fact covers only those who believe.Then it is correct to say that Jesus death was for believers only,not everybody.
As I've said, He died for everyone and those who believe will be saved, as the Bible states. Fg,I love you.I'm not trying to be condescending,or above the fray,taking the high road.I really love you.I know without any doubt that you love God,and are willing to stand in proper defense of the gospel message.
I respectfully disagree with your understanding of that message,as I am sure you disagree with my conclusions as well.What are we left to do at this point?
We can continue to converse as long as the conversation can be conducted civilly,with mutual respect and love,Not saying that you are presently doing otherwise,although I have been taken aback by your straightforwardness over the course of our discussion 
Yet we have managed to continue to this point!LOL It will take Divine revelation to open up ears and eyes that either of us might see.If you think that you will have or gain some valuable benefit in continuing this discussion,I'll try to hang in there with you.
If in the end you feel there is some victory to be had,a winning of the argument if you will.I submit to you that Satan would have a better chance of gaining forgiveness from God,than either of us will be able to declare ourselves the victor in our defense of the gospel message.
Now that's my attempt at being straight forward
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 1:15:21 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
I once heard a sermon by Paul Washer where he said: "I do not know what happens to little babies who die - whether they go directly to Heaven or not. But I do know this, God holds providence over everything, and whatever happens to that child is the BEST thing that COULD happen to that child because God has done it."
Amen.
I'll add my amen. And that is why babies go to heaven.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 1:27:53 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
quote:
Here again is reality.If Jesus death atoned,payed the penalty for all,then all are saved.Period,end of discussion,let's join forces with the UR and call it a day.
Your claim is empty. You simply are not grasping that salvation can be paid for, yet those for who it is paid for won't get it. According to John 1:12 we receive when we believe. It's been paid, but it is delivered upon believing. Period. End of discussion.
quote:
If on the other hand his death although effective enough to cover all people in fact covers only those who believe.Then it is correct to say that Jesus death was for believers only,not everybody.
As I've said, He died for everyone and those who believe will be saved, as the Bible states.
Fg,I love you.I'm not trying to be condescending,or above the fray,taking the high road.I really love you.I know without any doubt that you love God,and are willing to stand in proper defense of the gospel message.
Same as I feel towards you, as the Bible commands us to do.
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I respectfully disagree with your understanding of that message,as I am sure you disagree with my conclusions as well.What are we left to do at this point?
Hopefully, all disagreements are respectful. Your call on what's left.
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We can continue to converse as long as the conversation can be conducted civilly,with mutual respect and love,Not saying that you are presently doing otherwise,although I have been taken aback by your straightforwardness over the course of our discussion
Which only proves that I'm as fallen as anyone else. Sorry for any offenses you have taken.
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Yet we have managed to continue to this point!LOL It will take Divine revelation to open up ears and eyes that either of us might see.If you think that you will have or gain some valuable benefit in continuing this discussion,I'll try to hang in there with you.
I heartily agree that God is the One who gives revelation. I also believe that God expects man to grasp that revelation. The fact that believers disagree on theological povs only demonstrates that either one is wrong, or both are.
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If in the end you feel there is some victory to be had,a winning of the argument if you will.I submit to you that Satan would have a better chance of gaining forgiveness from God,than either of us will be able to declare ourselves the victor in our defense of the gospel message.
I think discussions, and yes, debates over theology are good for only one thing: to bring into focus how we ourselves understand passages, compared to how others compare passages. In the end, we will live with our understandings. I'm not comfortable thinking that I might be wrong. God's Word is too precious to allow me to be inaccurate.
Through these discussions, I'm always examining other pov's and testing them against the balance of the rest of Scripture. I cannot explain every verse in Scripture, as I'm sure very few can. But, so far, I've been able to defend why I believe as I do from Scripture. It all comes down to how one understands the verse.
I'd be happy to discuss whatever you are interested in. Since we don't see many verses the same, I'd be happy to explain why I understand them as I do.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 2:44:25 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 495
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I'd be happy to discuss whatever you are interested in. Since we don't see many verses the same, I'd be happy to explain why I understand them as I do. On this note I would like to continue then.Thanks
What I hear you say when I read your post concerning Jesus death paying the price for all,makes me question a few things.
While I believe that Jesus death was certainly effective enough for all men literally.I do not find that it was intended to cover the debt of all men.I can't quite understand why anyone who seriously gave it any honest thought could or would.
I'm not attacking you or your position,I'm just being honest in my assessment of your position.
I consider that If I agreed to pay for the meal of everyone in a restaurant,then everyone when getting a check for that meal would have paid in full written on it,and they would be free to then get up and leave with their debt satisfied.
If on the other hand I attached a stipulation to everyones bill being paid,whether they say thank you,or they believe the waitress when she says your meal really is paid in full,and that only those who meet whatever specific requirement I assess, meal will be paid in full.
I think that at that point,I can no longer state that I have paid for everyones meal.It's like a catch twenty-two.Sort of like deceptive advertising.Free iced tea here come and get it.Then you find out that the tea is free only when you purchase a meal.
The tea really isn't free at that point,although technically it is.Car sales is especially known for this.Come buy a car from us where every application is accepted.Or your approved,everyone without exception is approved or we'll give you Five hundred dollars cash.
While in reality every application will be accepted,that doesn't mean that the accepted application is also approved.Or everyone is approved doesn't mean that the terms of the approval is anything that you would want to or be in the position to accept,I.E. approved on a five thousand dollar loan with four thousand five hundred dollars down.
Again both technically true,but it's not at all what is promised.I don't think that God plays games with us like that.If he says he died for all,than he said what he meant and meant what he said.
What God does do however is allow men to miss what he says,that is think they understand what he said,and miss altogether what it meant.
If thy right hand offend thee cut it off,pluck out your eyes.Verily I say to you you must be born again etc...
What I don't find God doing though is giving out the hope of one thing and delivering something short of that.I.E. you can't ask him for a fish and he give you a stone.He won't make a promise and not keep it.What benefit is it to God to say I died for you,but you're going to hell anyway because you didn't know I died for you?
I know one would say that man would be left without excuse,but Jesus didn't have to die in order for us,that is all of us to be worthy of hell.Jesus died for us so that some of us could be justified.
I just fail to see the logic in your position,although I clearly understand why and how you arrived at your position,because I believed it the exact same way for for thirty years of my Christian life and only now in the last year do I see it as I do now.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 3:39:34 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
I'd be happy to discuss whatever you are interested in. Since we don't see many verses the same, I'd be happy to explain why I understand them as I do. On this note I would like to continue then.Thanks
You're very welcome.
quote:
What I hear you say when I read your post concerning Jesus death paying the price for all,makes me question a few things.
While I believe that Jesus death was certainly effective enough for all men literally.I do not find that it was intended to cover the debt of all men.
Given all the verses I've provided, why not?
quote:
I can't quite understand why anyone who seriously gave it any honest thought could or would.
"Would" or "could" what? Again, here are a sample of verses that either come out plainly who Christ dies for, or imply it strongly:
John 1:7 "that all might believe through Him"
John 1:29 "who takes away the sin of the world"
John 3:16 "that whosoever believes"
John 3;17 "that the world should be saved through Him"
John 17:21 "that the world may believe"
Acts 17:27 "so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him"
LUke 19:10 "has come to seek and to save that which was lost"
2 Cor 5:14 "that one died for all"
2 Cor 5:15 "He died for all"
2 Cor 5:19 "He was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ"
Heb 2:9 "he might taste death for everyone"
Titus 2:11 "grace of God that brings salvation to all men"
1 Tim 1:5 "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"
1 Tim 2:3 "God...wants all men to be saved"
1 Tim 2:6 "a ransom for all men"
1 Tim 4:10 "the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers"
2 Pet 3:9 "not wanting anyone to perish
1 John 2;2 "he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, also for the sins of the whole world"
1 John 4:14 "tahe father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world"
Rev 22:17 "whosoever wishes, let him take the water of life freely"
2 Pet 2:1 tells us that the Master bought (agarozo) false teachers. the same Greek word is used by Paul when he told the Corinthian believers that they had been bought with a price: 1 Cor 6:20 and 7:23.
If Christ had only died for those who believe, which the reformed call the "elect", how come there are no verses that say as much? Instead, we read of "all men", "everyone", "world", "whole world", "sinners" and the "lost". None of those words can be reduced to mean only those who believe in the context in which they are written.
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I'm not attacking you or your position,I'm just being honest in my assessment of your position.
OK. I've just given you reasons for my position. Which verses do you take issue with?
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I consider that If I agreed to pay for the meal of everyone in a restaurant,then everyone when getting a check for that meal would have paid in full written on it,and they would be free to then get up and leave with their debt satisfied.
Yep. But that's not how God's plan works. This "ain't no restaurant". Here is how to explain it:
A man lives in an apartment building and wants everyone in the building to have their own Bible. So he goes out and purchases one for each resident of the building. Then, he goes around to each apartment and offers a Bible to each resident, free of charge.
Each resident is free to either accept or reject the offer of the Bible, correct?
If some residents don't accept the Bible, it's still paid for, right? They just don't receive it. It stays with the purchaser.
That is my explanation of how Christ can die for everyone, and purchase salvation for everyone (bought with a price), yet not everyone receive eternal life. If you disagree with this illustration, please break down the example to show me how it doesn't apply.
I don't think your restaurant example applies. Your example would apply only if universalism were true. But it isn't true, as Scripture clearly indicates.
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If on the other hand I attached a stipulation to everyones bill being paid,whether they say thank you,or they believe the waitress when she says your meal really is paid in full,and that only those who meet whatever specific requirement I assess, meal will be paid in full.
I'm not sure what you mean by "whatever specific requirement I assess". Please elaborate. So far, your example still smacks of universalism. iow, everyone gets to eat free. If everyone goes to heaven because Christ died for them, universalism is true. But it isn't true.
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I think that at that point,I can no longer state that I have paid for everyones meal.It's like a catch twenty-two.Sort of like deceptive advertising.Free iced tea here come and get it.Then you find out that the tea is free only when you purchase a meal.
Yes, but I don't see your point here. Now you've added "purchase a meal". I'll be interested in your take on my example of giving away free Bibles to "whosoever wants" one.
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The tea really isn't free at that point,although technically it is.Car sales is especially known for this.Come buy a car from us where every application is accepted.Or your approved,everyone without exception is approved or we'll give you Five hundred dollars cash.
But none of this is relevant to our discussion.
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Again both technically true,but it's not at all what is promised.I don't think that God plays games with us like that.If he says he died for all,than he said what he meant and meant what he said.
Check out the verses I've provided. He said what He meant. And vice versa.
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What God does do however is allow men to miss what he says,that is think they understand what he said,and miss altogether what it meant.
I don't follow you here. Romans 1 is clear that God has made evident to men "everything that is known about God", so that "no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him". Of course, those who either suppress the truth, or are not paying attention won't see what He's made evident. But that would be their problem, wouldn't it? And they would be accountable for that suppression of truth, or failure to pay attention.
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What I don't find God doing though is giving out the hope of one thing and delivering something short of that.I.E. you can't ask him for a fish and he give you a stone.He won't make a promise and not keep it.
I agree. I don't find that either. When He promises eternal life to those who believe, they get eternal life.
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What benefit is it to God to say I died for you,but you're going to hell anyway because you didn't know I died for you?
Because God holds everyone personally accountable. Romans 1 is clear that "no one has an excuse" for not recognizing and honoring God. Cornelius is an excellent example of an unbeliever (unregenerate) who did recognize and honor God by reverence (God fearing) and continual prayer. The result was that God answered his prayers by sending Peter with the gospel.
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I know one would say that man would be left without excuse
We can, because Paul told us so in Romans 1. We are without excuse because God has made Himself evident to everyone. Those who seek Him will find Him, which is promised in Scripture: 2 Chron 15:2, Heb 11:6b, and Acts 17:27.
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but Jesus didn't have to die in order for us,that is all of us to be worthy of hell.Jesus died for us so that some of us could be justified.
He died that whosoever believes will be justified. There is no limit from Scripture about who can be justified. Paul even made that clear in Rom 3:23-25. "For all (everyone) has sinned...and is justified freely...through faith in Hhis blood". Please don't misunderstand that I'm trying to show that everyone will be justified. I am not, and neither is Paul. What Paul has written is that anyone from the human race is justified through faith.
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I just fail to see the logic in your position,although I clearly understand why and how you arrived at your position,because I believed it the exact same way for for thirty years of my Christian life and only now in the last year do I see it as I do now.
Well, that's interesting. I've given you my position and support for that position. What is wrong with it? Thanks.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 5:34:57 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 495
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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Good response FR,your strongest argument for what you hold is true in my estimation are the scriptures you posted in favor of it.
Here is a post from someone who believes in the UR doctrine and just a few verses they feel speaks to it here:Hi Sonofone,
Here are some of the FAVORITE verses of mine out of, MANY which speak to me of God saving ALL.
Okay, here goes... I get tears of happiness every time I read them >>>>>>
Heb 10: 10 It is through that divine will that we have been set free from sin, through the offering of Jesus Christ as our sacrifice ONCE FOR ALL.
1Tim 2: 6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.
John 4: 42 And said unto the woman, now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the CHRIST, THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD.
Luke 3: 6 And ALL FLESH shall see the salvation of God.
1Cor 3: 14-15 If ANY MAN'S work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If ANY MAN'S work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.
Isaiah 52: 10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD.
1Tim 4: 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE.
Heb 8: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, from the least to the greatest.
1John 2: 2 And he is the propitiation [shelter of mercy] for OUR sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.
Heb 9: 26b Now but ONCE FOR ALL at an end of the ages, for a removal of sin by means of the sacrifice of himself he has been manifested. [Emphatic Diaglott Interlinear New Testament]
John 12: 47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I CAME not to judge the world, but TO SAVE THE WORLD."
2Tim 1: 9 [God] Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but IN ACCORD WITH HIS OWN PURPOSE and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian [before the world began], [Concordant Literal New Testament]
Jeremiah 32: 27 Behold, I AM THE LORD, THE GOD OF ALL FLESH: is there any thing too hard for me?
Prov 11: 31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: MUCH MORE THE WICKED AND SINNER.
1Pet 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, THE JUST FOR THE UNJUST, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
John 1: 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the LAMB OF GOD, which taketh away THE SIN OF THE WORLD.
1Cor 15: 20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept [are deceased]. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. But EVERY MAN in his own order. Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
2Cor 5: 14-15 for the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if ONE DIED FOR ALL, then were all dead: And that HE DIED FOR ALL, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Cor 5: 18-19 And ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD, WHO HATH RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF BY JESUS CHRIST, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Isaiah 40: 5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and ALL FLESH shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
Matt 13: 33 Another parable spake he unto them; "The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till THE WHOLE was leavened."
Matt 18: 12-14 "How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that ONE of these little ones should perish."
Eph 1: 9-11 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him Who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL.
Isaiah 42: 16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things WILL I DO unto them, AND NOT FORSAKE THEM.
Dan 4: 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Isaiah 25: 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off ALL faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off ALL THE EARTH: for the Lord hath spoken it.
Ezek 21: 7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tiding; because it cometh: and EVERY heart shall melt, and ALL hands shall be feeble, and EVERY spirit shall faint, and ALL knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD..
Mark 9: 49 "For EVERY ONE shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt."
1Tim 2: 4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Psalm 65: 2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall ALL FLESH come.
Acts 3: 21 [Christ] whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of A RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age. [Young's Literal Translation]
Exodus 19: 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for ALL THE EARTH IS MINE:
Psalms 67:7 God shall bless us; and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH shall fear [reverence/honor] him.
Psalms 72: 8 HE SHALL HAVE DOMINION also from sea to sea, and from the river UNTO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.
MORE BELOW
There were more than these.Now they did just what you did in your last post.They strung scriptures together without complete context,and proper exegesis,and wha lah ! God saves everybody.
I understand why they have come to believe what they believe just like I understand why you do as well.In the end you have to have proper context,or we might as well cut off our arms,and pluck out our eyes.After all Jesus said it right?
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 6:06:03 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Good response FR,your strongest argument for what you hold is true in my estimation are the scriptures you posted in favor of it.
Here is a post from someone who believes in the UR doctrine and just a few verses they feel speaks to it here:Hi Sonofone,
Here are some of the FAVORITE verses of mine out of, MANY which speak to me of God saving ALL.
Hold on. None of the verses from your UR friend says that God saves ALL. Being the Savior of the world and a ransom for all doesn't say all are going to be saved. They speak of the fact that all can be saved: iow, Christ died for all so that all can be saved.
Why don't you interact with my example? Your restaurant example supports UR, which the Bible clearly contradicts. My example demonstrates how Christ can purchase (agarazo) salvation for everyone, yet not everyone receive it.
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MORE BELOW
I thought you were going to try to work on your long posts! lol You provided 33 verses. Just because the UR crowd uses verses to demonstrate that all can be saved doesn't give them any support for their view, which Scripture clearly contradicts.
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There were more than these.Now they did just what you did in your last post.They strung scriptures together without complete context,and proper exegesis,and wha lah ! God saves everybody.
Your claim is empty. Why don't you take my verses and show me how the context speaks of limiting Christ's death only to those who believe? Can you do that?
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I understand why they have come to believe what they believe just like I understand why you do as well.In the end you have to have proper context,or we might as well cut off our arms,and pluck out our eyes.After all Jesus said it right?
OK, put your "money" where your arms and legs are. Show me how the verses I provided do not speak of Christ dying for all.
If you could produce even one verse that stated that Christ died only for the elect, you would be correct. Yet, you do not have even one verse. We can forget about the UR crowd, since their pov is over the top silly and not worth the time discussing it.
The verses are clear about the fact that Christ is the Savior of the world, not "Savior of the elect" as you would have it, and that He tasted death for everyone, not "tasted death for the elect".
I've already commented on your attempt to generalize about how "all" is used. I even provided an example of "whole world" NOT meaning the entire human race. Can you show me from the context and text that 1 John 2:2 is limited to what you call the "elect"? I know you want 1 John 2:2 to say that Christ propitiated for the sins of the whole world of the elect, but it doesn't even come close to that.
Please deal with 2 Pet 2:1 compared with 1 Cor 6:20 and 7:23. The same Greek word is used, twice for believers and once for false teachers who deny their Master. Since He died for everyone, there is no problem using that word for everyone, believer and unbeliever alike.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 6:21:34 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 495
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Good response FR,your strongest argument for what you hold is true in my estimation are the scriptures you posted in favor of it.
Here is a post from someone who believes in the UR doctrine and just a few verses they feel speaks to it here:Hi Sonofone,
Here are some of the FAVORITE verses of mine out of, MANY which speak to me of God saving ALL.
Hold on. None of the verses from your UR friend says that God saves ALL. Being the Savior of the world and a ransom for all doesn't say all are going to be saved. They speak of the fact that all can be saved: iow, Christ died for all so that all can be saved.
Why don't you interact with my example? Your restaurant example supports UR, which the Bible clearly contradicts. My example demonstrates how Christ can purchase (agarazo) salvation for everyone, yet not everyone receive it.
quote:
MORE BELOW
I thought you were going to try to work on your long posts! lol You provided 33 verses. Just because the UR crowd uses verses to demonstrate that all can be saved doesn't give them any support for their view, which Scripture clearly contradicts.
quote:
There were more than these.Now they did just what you did in your last post.They strung scriptures together without complete context,and proper exegesis,and wha lah ! God saves everybody.
Your claim is empty. Why don't you take my verses and show me how the context speaks of limiting Christ's death only to those who believe? Can you do that?
quote:
I understand why they have come to believe what they believe just like I understand why you do as well.In the end you have to have proper context,or we might as well cut off our arms,and pluck out our eyes.After all Jesus said it right?
OK, put your "money" where your arms and legs are. Show me how the verses I provided do not speak of Christ dying for all.
If you could produce even one verse that stated that Christ died only for the elect, you would be correct. Yet, you do not have even one verse. We can forget about the UR crowd, since their pov is over the top silly and not worth the time discussing it.
The verses are clear about the fact that Christ is the Savior of the world, not "Savior of the elect" as you would have it, and that He tasted death for everyone, not "tasted death for the elect".
I've already commented on your attempt to generalize about how "all" is used. I even provided an example of "whole world" NOT meaning the entire human race. Can you show me from the context and text that 1 John 2:2 is limited to what you call the "elect"? I know you want 1 John 2:2 to say that Christ propitiated for the sins of the whole world of the elect, but it doesn't even come close to that.
Please deal with 2 Pet 2:1 compared with 1 Cor 6:20 and 7:23. The same Greek word is used, twice for believers and once for false teachers who deny their Master. Since He died for everyone, there is no problem using that word for everyone, believer and unbeliever alike.
Just like you want them to hold on slow down the horses.I suggest the same of you.Imagine if I gave you the entire list of scriptures they quoted and asked you to give proper context for each one.
I have given you plenty of verses in context which speak to Jesus dying for his sheep and yet you say I have given you nothing.I'm starting to get the feeling you think victory is within your grasp again.
I want to provide context for all of the scriptures you posted,but then I'm sure you will say that I'm being to wordy  You can't have it both ways.You can't defy me to give you an explanation for what you put forth,then when I do, say I'm being to wordy,or what I say doesn't apply.This is the kind of thing that makes me want to just leave it we're it's at.
Not that I don't enjoy conversing with you,it's just that I know no matter what I say it will be dismissed,or should I say MISSED.
At any rate I'm on my way to the beach for the weekend,and will have to continue this when I get back.Once again I love you,and may God continue to richly bless you and both our understanding.
God bless,Steve
< Message edited by sunofone -- 6/20/2008 6:27:55 PM >
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/20/2008 6:28:06 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
OK, put your "money" where your arms and legs are. Show me how the verses I provided do not speak of Christ dying for all.
If you could produce even one verse that stated that Christ died only for the elect, you would be correct. Yet, you do not have even one verse. We can forget about the UR crowd, since their pov is over the top silly and not worth the time discussing it.
The verses are clear about the fact that Christ is the Savior of the world, not "Savior of the elect" as you would have it, and that He tasted death for everyone, not "tasted death for the elect".
I've already commented on your attempt to generalize about how "all" is used. I even provided an example of "whole world" NOT meaning the entire human race. Can you show me from the context and text that 1 John 2:2 is limited to what you call the "elect"? I know you want 1 John 2:2 to say that Christ propitiated for the sins of the whole world of the elect, but it doesn't even come close to that.
Please deal with 2 Pet 2:1 compared with 1 Cor 6:20 and 7:23. The same Greek word is used, twice for believers and once for false teachers who deny their Master. Since He died for everyone, there is no problem using that word for everyone, believer and unbeliever alike.
Just like you want them to hold on slow down the horses.I suggest the same of you.Imagine if I gave you the entire list of scriptures they quoted and asked you to give proper context for each one.
I have given you plenty of verses in context which speak to Jesus dying for his sheep and yet you say I have given you nothing.I'm starting to get the feeling you think victory is within your grasp again.
I'm not looking for "victory", as you imagine. To say that Jesus died for His sheep is certainly accurate. But, does that limit who all He died for? No, it does not. Remember, false teachers even though they deny the Master who bought them.
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I want to provide context for all of the scriptures you posted,but then I'm sure you will say that I'm being to wordy You can't have it both ways.You can't defy me to give you an explanation for what you put forth,then when I do, say I'm being to wordy,or what I say doesn't apply.This is the kind of thing that makes me want to just leave it we're it's at.
How about dealing with just several at a time?
quote:
At any rate I'm on my way to the beach for the weekend,and will have to continue this when I get back.Once again I love you,and may God continue to richly bless you and both our understanding.
God bless,Steve
Hope you don't get sunburned! | | |
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