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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/21/2008 4:42:39 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Question 1: Has everyone who has achieved salvation since the beginning obtained it by faith or some other means?
All are saved by grace. For those who are able to comprehend, are accountable for believing the gospel, and are saved by grace through faith.
For those who are not able to comprehend, are not accountable, but are still saved by grace since Christ died for everyone. Romans 11:32 says "For God has shut up all (everyone) in disobedience that He might show mercy to all (everyone).
Since all are saved by grace, per Eph 2:5 and 8, it is clear that no one deserves salvation, whether they comprehended and believe, or were not able to comprehend and believe.
quote:
Question 2: Were the majority of Israelites who left Egypt lost without salvation?
No. Paul noted in 1 Cor 10 that "all of them" drank from the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Further evidence that the first generation of the Exodus generation were believers is Paul's comment in 1 Cor 10:11, "Now these things ahppened to them as an example, and they were written FOR OUR INSTRUCTION, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."
If the first generation were unbelievers, how could Paul say they were an example for US? How can unbelievers be any kind of example for believers? They cannot.
quote:
Question 3: Did the old covenant save anyone?
No. Paul was very clear: Rom 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
Paul also wrote, in Gal 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.."
Since Christ died for everyone, and was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, not merely the "elect" as some would have it, those who are able to comprehend and believe are held accountable per Rom 1 for recognizing and honoring God. If they do, He will provide further "evidence", which we see in the life of Cornelius, who as an unregenerate Gentile, recognized and honored God through reverence and continual prayer. And God answered his prayers by sending Peter with the gospel, by which to be saved, per Acts 11:14.
Those who are unable to comprehend, and therefore believe are not held accountable, but since Christ died for them, they are saved by grace, the same way those who comprehended and believed were saved.
So, there is only 1 way of salvation: by grace.
Some argue that the phrase "faith IN Christ" should be rendered "faith OF Christ". OK. Everyone who is saved is saved by grace through the faith OF Christ, who died for everyone, which propitiated the Father for the sins of the whole world.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/21/2008 9:02:32 PM
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bob97
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Hi FreeGrace…
Regarding question 2:
I assume then that it would be your opinion that the rest that God talked about in Heb 4:6 is something other then eternal rest, where God says the first generation Israelites could not enter His rest because of unbelief?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/21/2008 9:29:48 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi FreeGrace…
Regarding question 2:
I assume then that it would be your opinion that the rest that God talked about in Heb 4:6 is something other then eternal rest, where God says the first generation Israelites could not enter His rest because of unbelief?
Bob
I think it would have to be, considering what 1 Cor 10 says about them.
btw, even Moses didn't "enter the rest" mentioned in Heb. Why? When God told him to speak to the rock for water, he was so angry with the people that he disregarded God's command and struck the rock. Water came out anyway, but Moses "lost" his ticket to the rest.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/21/2008 10:33:48 PM
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bob97
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FG…here is another translation from the NLT. From this point it would sure seem like eternal rest to me…what do you think?
Heb 4:3 For only we who believe can enter His rest. As for the others, God said, "In My anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter My place of rest,'" even though this rest has been ready since He made the world.
Heb 4:4 We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: "On the seventh day God rested from all His work."
Henry refers to it as a covenant relationship with Christ and if that is true it talks about their salvation and if they did not have rest then they didn’t have the relationship with Christ and thus not salvation.
Paul says their minds were blinded and only Christ could remove the veil and if they didn’t have a relationship with Christ they had no salvation.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
And even to this day for the most part the people of Israel are blinded because Christ has been withheld from them.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 7:54:12 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
FG…here is another translation from the NLT. From this point it would sure seem like eternal rest to me…what do you think?
Heb 4:3 For only we who believe can enter His rest. As for the others, God said, "In My anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter My place of rest,'" even though this rest has been ready since He made the world.
Heb 4:4 We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: "On the seventh day God rested from all His work."
Henry refers to it as a covenant relationship with Christ and if that is true it talks about their salvation and if they did not have rest then they didn’t have the relationship with Christ and thus not salvation.
Paul says their minds were blinded and only Christ could remove the veil and if they didn’t have a relationship with Christ they had no salvation.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
And even to this day for the most part the people of Israel are blinded because Christ has been withheld from them.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.Bob
Bob,
The very next verse in the passage you provided is this: "but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." Yes, only Christ can take the veil away, but v.16 is clear that man must turn to the Lord before the veil is removed.
I still think the first generation of the Exodus group were saved, otherwise how could they, as unbelievers, be "an example for us", as believers? 1 Cor 10:6.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 9:43:22 AM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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Hi FG...
But Moses veiled his face so the Glory of Christ would not be visible to the first generation.
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
God seems to have intentionally blinded the first generation (as a whole) to the coming Christ, faith was withheld. We know that some had faith, such as Joshua and Caleb but not the whole.
Moses gave them the same message in Deu 30 as Paul gives later but without Christ.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 1:26:36 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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John says:
quote:
I am sure that I don't have it down pat, though I believe what I do because it's what God has pressed upon my heart to believe...
The problem that I struggle with in regards to that statement is, myself and others equally believe that God has pressed upon our hearts.
As far as the other answers explaining that it's not a requirement to understand...yada yada yada.
It seems that it is further evidence that we avoid (and I do mean WE) the issue of doctrinal pride.
I promise you this God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are NOT Calvanist, nor Arminianist.
We would have to at this point agree to disagree.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 3:00:05 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi FG...
But Moses veiled his face so the Glory of Christ would not be visible to the first generation.
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
God seems to have intentionally blinded the first generation (as a whole) to the coming Christ, faith was withheld. We know that some had faith, such as Joshua and Caleb but not the whole.
Moses gave them the same message in Deu 30 as Paul gives later but without Christ.Bob
I think the veiling of Moses' face was to prevent the people from being distracted from the glory of it. To equate veiling his face with saying that God was blinding the first generation to the coming Christ and faith was withheld doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see any connection.
In fact, Paul very clearly noted in 1 Cor 10 that they all drank from that spiritual rock, which was Christ. And the fact that Paul says that the "first generation is an example to us" cannot be true if they were unbelievers. How can unbelievers be any kind of example for believers? Please answer.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 3:28:31 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 495
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quote:
I'm not looking for "victory", as you imagine. To say that Jesus died for His sheep is certainly accurate. But, does that limit who all He died for? No, it does not. Remember, false teachers even though they deny the Master who bought them.
Hey I'm back and I didn't get sunburned,but then I'm already chocolate black,so how would I know 
Who denied the master who bought them? Who were the false prophets among the people? What does it mean that God bought them?
Answer me this and let's see where we can go from there.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 3:52:40 PM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I think the veiling of Moses' face was to prevent the people from being distracted from the glory of it. To equate veiling his face with saying that God was blinding the first generation to the coming Christ and faith was withheld doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see any connection.
In 2 Corinthians 3:14 the verb translated "blinded" is in the passive voice. This simply means that the action of "blinding" was done to them not by them. This is confirmed by a much clearer passage found in Romans 11.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
In fact, Paul very clearly noted in 1 Cor 10 that they all drank from that spiritual rock, which was Christ.
Yes . . . the passage says that they all drank from the same spiritual rock, but it also says:
1Co 10:5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
And the fact that Paul says that the "first generation is an example to us" cannot be true if they were unbelievers. How can unbelievers be any kind of example for believers? Please answer.
The way in which unbelievers can be examples to us is made clear by the same passage.
1Co 10:6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did.
< Message edited by Machaira -- 6/22/2008 3:59:29 PM >
_____________________________
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Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 4:17:26 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
I'm not looking for "victory", as you imagine. To say that Jesus died for His sheep is certainly accurate. But, does that limit who all He died for? No, it does not. Remember, false teachers even though they deny the Master who bought them.
Hey I'm back and I didn't get sunburned,but then I'm already chocolate black,so how would I know
I've heard that those with really dark skin can actually burn more easily. I imagine if you did get sunburned, you'd be in pain. 
quote:
Who denied the master who bought them? Who were the false prophets among the people? What does it mean that God bought them?
Answer me this and let's see where we can go from there.
The phrase is found in 2 Pet 2:1. "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought (agarazo), bringing swift destruction upon themselves."
The Greek word "agarazo", found in 2 Pet 2:1 is also found in 1 Cor 6:20 and 7:23, used to describe believers by Paul.
So, either the false teachers in 2 Pet 2:1 were believers who apostacized by denying the Master who bought them, or they are unbelievers, proving beyond any doubt that Christ died for everyone, inlcuding all who remain unbelievers.
The meaning of "agarazo" is "to purchase, specially, to redeem". The KJV renders it "buy, redeem".
We know from Rom 6:23 that the gift of God is eternal life through Christ. What did Christ "buy"? He bought salvation for everyone, and offers it freely, as Rom 6:23 notes.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 4:19:22 PM
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sunofone
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I like what you said about scripture not fighting against scripture FG.I was impressed in my spirit to speak the same thing.Over the course of the weekend I had a chance to think about our ongoing conversation,and I'm always trying to see God,and what he wants me to see,or show through me.
I was drawn in my thoughts to last weeks school lesson about the blood.One of the ministers got up and spoke about the children of Israel being in bondage for four hundred years.
Well an older gentleman got up and corrected the minister,saying that the bible said it was 430 years,not 400.The bible clearly said both,whether he was aware of it or not.
It was just weird that someone would intentionally or not have scripture fight scripture.As with anything context is key.What I heard God saying to me in this,is things are not always either or.
Sometimes things can both even though they seemingly contradict the other.There are numerous examples of this,throughout the earth,as well as scripture.
In an effort to shorten my post I won't list all of the examples of this that flooded my mind.LOL One of the most striking examples of this although not the most profound example was the Zebra.
People often say that it is white with black stripes,while others say it is black with white stripes.Truth is it is neither.The Zebra is simply striped.
The bible in many cases does not mean what it says.It does however it always means what it says.The example I gave for instance regarding Israel.Many will say the bible contradicts itself,therefore it is fallible,errant and unable to be relied upon.
The bible meant what it said,and yet it didn't mean what it said:
40. the sojourning of the children of Israel . . . four hundred and thirty years--The Septuagint renders it thus: "The sojourning of the children and of their fathers, which they sojourned in the land of Canaan and in the land of Egypt." These additions are important, for the period of sojourn in Egypt did not exceed two hundred fifteen years; but if we reckon from the time that Abraham entered Canaan and the promise was made in which the sojourn of his posterity in Egypt was announced, this makes up the time to four hundred thirty years.
We are going back and forth over whether Jesus died for everyone,or simply the elect.In reality it said that he died for the world,but is that what it meant?
The bible also says that satan is the god of this world,so does that mean that he is our god?Matthew 1 vs 21 She will give birth to a son,and you are to give him the name Jesus,because he will save his people from their sins.What people? All people,the Jews?,the world?God is said to have been in Christ reconciling the world to himself,not counting men's sins against them. So are all men's sins forgiven as the UR say?Or did Jesus fail? Was the world reconciled to God?
It's not enough to see and hear the scriptures you have see and hear the scriptures.This can only be done through God,yet we must come to him with our hand and hearts open ready to receive.
A closed mouth doesn't get fed,and a closed hand or mind can't be filled.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 4:20:26 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1826
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bob:
I don't know how relevant your questions are to the topic at hand, but I will respond as follows:
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Question 1: Has everyone who has achieved salvation since the beginning obtained it by faith or some other means?
Salvation is always by grace through faith. That is clear from Genesis to Revelation. However, this topic is about those who may not be able to exercise faith because of incapacity. The Bible does not reveal how God saves those who are unable to exercise faith through incapacity.
The preaching of the Gospel is a necessity for sinners to believe and be saved (Rom. 10:8-21). But infants cannot understand the Gospel, neither can they understand right from wrong. The Bible reveals that there is an age at which this understanding becomes possible (Isa. 7:15,16).
quote:
Question 2: Were the majority of Israelites who left Egypt lost without salvation?
All men are lost without salvation. So what's your point?
quote:
Question 3: Did the old covenant save anyone?
Men were saved under the Old Covenant by grace through faith. So what's your point?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 4:39:39 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I think the veiling of Moses' face was to prevent the people from being distracted from the glory of it. To equate veiling his face with saying that God was blinding the first generation to the coming Christ and faith was withheld doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see any connection.
In 2 Corinthians 3:14 the verb translated "blinded" is in the passive voice. This simply means that the action of "blinding" was done to them not by them. This is confirmed by a much clearer passage found in Romans 11.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."
Actually, if we go back one chapter in Romans, to 10:16ff.
"However, they (Jews) did not heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report? So faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, surely they have never heard have they? INDEED, THEY HAVE; "their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? At the first Moses says, "I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation, by a nation without understanding will I anger you." And Isaiah is very bold and says, I was found by those who sought Me not, I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me. But as for Israel He says, "All theday long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people?
Paul was clear that the Jews had indeed heard, but were obstinate. They were not paying attention. This is found in many verses:
2 Kings 17:13-16
2 Chron 33:10
Neh 9:17
Prov 1:24-31
Jer 6:16, 7:24, 13:10, 26:5, 35:15, 36:31, 44:16
eZEK 3:7
Zeph 3:2
Heb 12:25
These verses demonstrate that God did not blind them; they weren't paying attention. When the Bible says that God blinded them, it is a Hebrew idiom which means they weren't listening, which is supported from these verses.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
In fact, Paul very clearly noted in 1 Cor 10 that they all drank from that spiritual rock, which was Christ.
Yes . . . the passage says that they all drank from the same spiritual rock, but it also says:
1Co 10:5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Yes, it does. What does "overthrown in the wilderness" mean to you?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
And the fact that Paul says that the "first generation is an example to us" cannot be true if they were unbelievers. How can unbelievers be any kind of example for believers? Please answer.
The way in which unbelievers can be examples to us is made clear by the same passage.
1Co 10:6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did.
I disagree. Only believers can be examples (good or bad) for other believers. Comparing believers with unbelievers as an example of one for the other, is nothing more than apples and oranged.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 5:01:38 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 495
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
I'm not looking for "victory", as you imagine. To say that Jesus died for His sheep is certainly accurate. But, does that limit who all He died for? No, it does not. Remember, false teachers even though they deny the Master who bought them.
Hey I'm back and I didn't get sunburned,but then I'm already chocolate black,so how would I know
I've heard that those with really dark skin can actually burn more easily. I imagine if you did get sunburned, you'd be in pain.
quote:
Who denied the master who bought them? Who were the false prophets among the people? What does it mean that God bought them?
Answer me this and let's see where we can go from there.
The phrase is found in 2 Pet 2:1. "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought (agarazo), bringing swift destruction upon themselves."
The Greek word "agarazo", found in 2 Pet 2:1 is also found in 1 Cor 6:20 and 7:23, used to describe believers by Paul.
So, either the false teachers in 2 Pet 2:1 were believers who apostacized by denying the Master who bought them, or they are unbelievers, proving beyond any doubt that Christ died for everyone, inlcuding all who remain unbelievers.
The meaning of "agarazo" is "to purchase, specially, to redeem". The KJV renders it "buy, redeem".
We know from Rom 6:23 that the gift of God is eternal life through Christ. What did Christ "buy"? He bought salvation for everyone, and offers it freely, as Rom 6:23 notes.
I almost feel like I'm the host of who wants to be a millionaire,when he ask is that your final answer 
You should know me by now,I'm all about getting at the context of scripture.I know that Peter was addressing false teachers,who claimed to be Christians but were not in fact what they posed.Jude vs 4 says that certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you.Sounds mighty close to what Jesus referenced in John chp 10 vs 1 he that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold,but climbeth up some other way,the same is a THIEF AND A ROBBER.
We know that the verse in 2nd Peter starts off saying that there were false prophets among the people.This has to be referring to fellow Jews.He then says that there will be false teachers among you as well.
Psalms 74 vs 2 Remember the the people you PURCHASED of old,the tribe of your inheritance.
Who were purchased of old? who were the false prophets among the people? who was Jesus referring to when he spoke of he that enters not by the door into the sheepfold but by some other way?Who were all of these false teachers denying?
Is it at least in the realm of possibility that these were fellow Jews Peter spoke of here?If so would them being bought be more consistent with them being purchased of old?
The question I'd ask myself is what is gained by saying that unbelievers are already purchased if you don't believe in the UR doctrine.After all if Jesus already purchased them,then aren't they his ownership,making him free to do with them as he wills.And we know that God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance right?
I don't take away from the fact that Jesus death was effective enough for all,but in reality it only saves those who are saved,so in effect he died for the saved world.
Yet the unsaved world can never say that they are in hell because,Jesus did not die for them,as if but for the fact that he had, they too would be saved.Whether Jesus died for them or not,and whether they believe or not,they are already condemned on account of sin.
The doctrine that Christ died for all,is just one step short of embracing the UR camp,in fact if I accepted this to be true,I would most certainly believe in the UR doctrine as it is far more palatable then believing that Jesus died for all,but it does you no good because you couldn't believe.So sorry thanks for trying though,goodbye
How cruel does God have to be.To offer salvation, pay for salvation but deny all who could not believe if they wanted too, to begin with.I just don't see it FR,I just don't see it.
< Message edited by sunofone -- 6/22/2008 5:14:56 PM >
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 5:02:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
John says:
quote:
I am sure that I don't have it down pat, though I believe what I do because it's what God has pressed upon my heart to believe...
The problem that I struggle with in regards to that statement is, myself and others equally believe that God has pressed upon our hearts.
As far as the other answers explaining that it's not a requirement to understand...yada yada yada.
It seems that it is further evidence that we avoid (and I do mean WE) the issue of doctrinal pride.
I promise you this God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are NOT Calvanist, nor Arminianist.
We would have to at this point agree to disagree.
Well... Truth be told if I told like it is I would be band :) yada, yada, yada....
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 5:22:24 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
So, either the false teachers in 2 Pet 2:1 were believers who apostacized by denying the Master who bought them, or they are unbelievers, proving beyond any doubt that Christ died for everyone, inlcuding all who remain unbelievers.
The meaning of "agarazo" is "to purchase, specially, to redeem". The KJV renders it "buy, redeem".
We know from Rom 6:23 that the gift of God is eternal life through Christ. What did Christ "buy"? He bought salvation for everyone, and offers it freely, as Rom 6:23 notes.
We know that the verse in 2nd Peter starts off saying that there were false prophets among the people.This has to be referring to fellow Jews.He then says that there will be false teachers among you as well.
Psalms 74 vs 2 Remember the the people you PURCHASED of old,the tribe of your inheritance.
Who were purchased of old? who were the false prophets among the people? who was Jesus referring to when he spoke of he that enters not by the door into the sheepfold but by some other way?Who were all of these false teachers denying?
Is it at least in the realm of possibility that these were fellow Jews Peter spoke of here?If so would them being bought be more consistent with them being purchased of old?
The question I'd ask myself is what is gained by saying that unbelievers are already purchased if you don't believe in the UR doctrine.After all if Jesus already purchased them,then aren't they his ownership,making him free to do with them as he wills.And we know that God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance right?
Do you mean unlimited redemption by UR? I do believe He died for all. Is that the same thing to you? I absolutely reject universalism. Not everyone will be saved.
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I don't take away from the fact that Jesus death was effective enough for all,but in reality it only saves those who are saved,so in effect he died for the saved world.
It's more accurate to say that Christ died for the world so that shosoever will be saved.
Yet the unsaved world can never say that they are in hell because,Jesus did not die for them,as if but for the fact that he had, they too would be saved.Whether Jesus died for them or not,and whether they believe or not,they are already condemned on account of sin.
Actually, no. They are condemned on account of disbelief, per John 3:17,18 and 36. That is very clear.
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The doctrine that Christ died for all,is just one step short of embracing the UR camp,in fact if I accepted this to be true,I would most certainly believe in the UR doctrine as it is far more palatable then believing that Jesus died for all,but it does you no good because you couldn't believe.So sorry thanks for trying though,goodbye
I'm not following your paragraph here. Please re-phrase.
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How cruel does God have to be.To offer salvation, pay for salvation but deny all who could not believe if they wanted too, to begin with.I just don't see it FR,I just don't see it.
I don't know why you would even phrase such a question as "how cruel does God have to be". Since God is love, your question is completely off track and irrelevant to the discussion.
This thread is about the unaccountable. That would be those who were not able to comprehend, and therefore believe. I hope you do agree that in order to believe something, you and to understand what you are believing in.
But, there are those who die without coming to the place of comprehending that God is creator, much less that Christ died for them, due either to early death, or being born with severe mental incapacitation. Those are the ones under discussion in this thread.
I believe that since Christ died for all, those who for lack of development never came to comprehend, are saved because they are unaccountable.
Those who do come to comprehend and believe are saved. Neither category deserves to be saved, nor have earned it.
Why? We are all saved by grace, Eph 2:5, 8. It was grace that God provided salvation for everyone. But man is accountable for believing the gospel, and condemned for rejecting it.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 5:23:14 PM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
Joined: 9/2/2006
From: Philadelphia, Pa.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Paul was clear that the Jews had indeed heard, but were obstinate. They were not paying attention. This is found in many verses:
2 Kings 17:13-16
2 Chron 33:10
Neh 9:17
Prov 1:24-31
Jer 6:16, 7:24, 13:10, 26:5, 35:15, 36:31, 44:16
eZEK 3:7
Zeph 3:2
Heb 12:.?
But this is not found in the passages I quoted. It would be nice if you would address them instead of playing dueling verses. Allow me to remind you that the verse in question is 2 Corinthians 3:14, to which I added and compared Romans 11:7,8.
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
When the Bible says that God blinded them, it is a Hebrew idiom which means they weren't listening, which is supported from these verses.?
This is simply a baseless assertion and fails to address the passive voice of the verb translated "blinded" in 2 Cor. 3:14 and the explicit pronouncement of God's "blinding" activities in Romans 11:7,8.
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Yes, it does. What does "overthrown in the wilderness" mean to you?
Are you trying to say you believe that those with whom God was not pleased and destroyed in the wilderness for their evil were saved?
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I disagree. Only believers can be examples (good or bad) for other believers.
This is simply unfounded. See Jude 1:7; 2 Peter 2:6; Hebrews 4:11
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 5:44:19 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 495
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
This thread is about the unaccountable. That would be those who were not able to comprehend, and therefore believe. I hope you do agree that in order to believe something, you and to understand what you are believing in.
But, there are those who die without coming to the place of comprehending that God is creator, much less that Christ died for them, due either to early death, or being born with severe mental incapacitation. Those are the ones under discussion in this thread.
I believe that since Christ died for all, those who for lack of development never came to comprehend, are saved because they are unaccountable.
Those who do come to comprehend and believe are saved. Neither category deserves to be saved, nor have earned it.
Why? We are all saved by grace, Eph 2:5, 8. It was grace that God provided salvation for everyone. But man is accountable for believing the gospel, and condemned for rejecting it. I would be more than happy to keep the discussion zeroed in on this,however somehow we have managed to confuse the work that Jesus did as somehow changing the rules of the game.
To suggest that any are unaccountable is off base.We are ALL as you like to say guilty of sin,thus we ALL are condemned to death and separation from God.Jesus died to change/remove this death sentence.
That he died does not now mean that men get to start from 0-then slowly go back to 10 as they reach some proposed age of accountability.
Think about it,as the mod has already posed the logic of this as such: The Bible teaches that what Adam did in the garden had automatic consequences for all humans. What Christ did on the cross did not have automatic eternal consequences for all humans.
To say that all infants or children below an age of accountability is saying that we are born saved and then at some point lose it and have to get it back.
This does not pass any scriptural test,which is why you would be hard pressed to find any scripture which you could even extrapolate support of this view.
And by the way we are saved by grace through that all important word FAITH which if I'm not mistaken requires that one believes right?
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/22/2008 8:03:07 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't know how relevant your questions are to the topic at hand, but I will respond as follows:
Ezra…I’m working around the question: did Christ die for everyone or only the elect.
It is my contention that because God said the first generation Israelites could not enter His rest because of unbelief, the majority of they were not saved I don’t know how much of the preceding discussion you have read but it centers around 2 CO 3 & 4 and Hebrews 4.
The point is if God did not save all of His own proclaimed people how can we expect His intent to save all mankind.
3We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. (NIV)
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 12:24:53 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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I think the veil that Moses wore represents the veil that separated holy place from the most holy place in the temple. In other words, the separation of man from the glory of God. The veil also separates man from the glory of Christ, being that God and Christ are one.
This premise is supported by Heb 10:20 which would tell us that the death of Christ rent the veil and provided our way directly to God through Christ:
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
There was only one way for the Old Testament people to be saved and that was under the covering of the new covenant, where by the Torah is written upon their hearts by the Holy Spirit.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 12:37:34 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1826
Status: offline
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quote:
And by the way we are saved by grace through that all important word FAITH which if I'm not mistaken requires that one believes right?
Exactly. And therefore if a child who was incapable of hearing the Gospel and of exercising faith were to die, that condition could not apply.
While God has not revealed how He justifies such individuals, His grace, mercy and justice shall be applied on the merits of the finished work of Christ, who is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 12:56:44 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1826
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Ezra…I’m working around the question: did Christ die for everyone or only the elect.
There is hardly any doubt -- on the authority of Scripture -- that the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, and became the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Read, study, | | |
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