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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 4:44:15 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
If they are not prisoners of war than they are individual citizens. They would be subject to criminal law and not international law.
How on God's green earth can they be citizens of the US.. I guess you are an example of the complete failure of our educational system.
Nice.
Rule of law. They should be charged with a crime or deported back where they came from. They commited crimes against the United States and they should be tried accordingly. Not held indefinitely without charge and tortured.
This isn't that difficult a concept.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 4:59:38 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
It isn't intelligence-gathering, Jhud; it is confession-gathering.
Coercing confessions out of scapegoats does not save lives.
Why would we care what they 'confess' to?
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:02:02 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I have no problem with our efforts being limited by the law.
I have great problem with it because I care about our citizens and think captives are better off in our hands than those of foreign authorities.
quote:
In response to the other reason, it is the commander in chief's (illegal) choices that would lead to more people dieing.
With this ruling more people are going to die either way; I would just prefer that it not be Americans.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:05:16 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I have no problem with our efforts being limited by the law.
I have great problem with it because I care about our citizens and think captives are better off in our hands than those of foreign authorities.
quote:
In response to the other reason, it is the commander in chief's (illegal) choices that would lead to more people dieing.
With this ruling more people are going to die either way; I would just prefer that it not be Americans.
I also care about our citizens and I resent the gross fear and guilt mongering that I've seen here.
Just because we believe in the rule of law doesn't mean we don't care about the country. We care enough to raise our voices when we see it doing something that is both immoral and evil.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:12:14 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I also care about our citizens and I resent the gross fear and guilt mongering that I've seen here.
Just because we believe in the rule of law doesn't mean we don't care about the country. We care enough to raise our voices when we see it doing something that is both immoral and evil.
There is a difference between 'rule of law' and misapplying laws. When the court attempts to apply to terrorists captured in war rules governing civil police actions against citizens, you diminish the capacity of the government to protect it citizens. That is the simple fact.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:19:10 PM
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relady
Posts: 1277
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
No attacks on US soil since 9/11; the administration is doing something right. Gee, there weren't any between 1993 and 2001 either. Guess the administration at the time was doing something right. 
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:20:43 PM
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relady
Posts: 1277
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
This isn't that difficult a concept. It is when you want to have your cake & eat it, too. 
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:20:51 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I also care about our citizens and I resent the gross fear and guilt mongering that I've seen here.
Just because we believe in the rule of law doesn't mean we don't care about the country. We care enough to raise our voices when we see it doing something that is both immoral and evil.
There is a difference between 'rule of law' and misapplying laws. When the court attempts to apply to terrorists captured in war rules governing civil police actions against citizens, you diminish the capacity of the government to protect it citizens. That is the simple fact.
And this is the fundamental nature of our disagreement. I believe the rule of law applies to our prisoners, no matter how we caught them. We must do the correct and moral thing, even though it won't be easy.
Even God tells us what we've done to deserve our just punishment. How can we, as a country, do less than Almighty God?
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:22:54 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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In all this discussion, I don't see anyone addressing what I think is the bigger and more critical aspect. In a scant two weeks, the Supreme Court has basically...ahem...emasculated both the voters and Congress.
Congress had already passed a detainee act and that's what they've just slapped down. Of course, the voters in CA had voted against gay marriage and the Court slapped that down.
They've also opened the door for the "detainees" to now have access to sensitive government information.
Why is no one seeing this, instead choosing to argue semantics? Or did it just get lost in the discussions?
The real fear is not the detainees, terrorists, whatever you want to call them. It's our own court system.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:29:23 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 451
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
In all this discussion, I don't see anyone addressing what I think is the bigger and more critical aspect. In a scant two weeks, the Supreme Court has basically...ahem...emasculated both the voters and Congress.
Which is their job if something violates the Constitution. Checks n' balances.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
They've also opened the door for the "detainees" to now have access to sensitive government information.
Does the case say anything about this? National secrets have always been limited in terms of discovery.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
The real fear is not the detainees, terrorists, whatever you want to call them. It's our own court system.
I will need to read the case first, but I think they are entitled to some level of due process.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:32:06 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
And this is the fundamental nature of our disagreement. I believe the rule of law applies to our prisoners, no matter how we caught them. We must do the correct and moral thing, even though it won't be easy.
Even God tells us what we've done to deserve our just punishment. How can we, as a country, do less than Almighty God?
'Rule of law' mean nothing by itself. We have Consititutional considerations that apply to citizens, and we have rules of war; what laws do you think govern the detainees at Gitmo?
And I don't remember God requiring us to capture, lawyer up, and detail the charges before a court those that were at war against us.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:33:19 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
They've also opened the door for the "detainees" to now have access to sensitive government information.
Why is no one seeing this, instead choosing to argue semantics? Or did it just get lost in the discussions?
The real fear is not the detainees, terrorists, whatever you want to call them. It's our own court system.
Excellent points Peter.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:38:15 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7796
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Which is their job if something violates the Constitution. Checks n' balances.
But that would be the point; the detainees don't fall under the jurisdiction of the Constitution.
quote:
Does the case say anything about this? National secrets have always been limited in terms of discovery.
Which shows how right Roberts was here; neither party can act under the regular courts.
quote:
I will need to read the case first, but I think they are entitled to some level of due process.
Well, that is what the Congressional laws attempted to address - but now we are back to square one.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 6/13/2008 6:41:53 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:40:27 PM
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cog41
Posts: 622
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
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Well,let's see if the executive will enforce it.
Or the liberals can have them, give them in state college tuition,,government housing, private pilot lessons,state driver licenses and while they're at it grant them the right to vote.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 5:45:16 PM
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relady
Posts: 1277
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Or the liberals can have them, give them in state college tuition,,government housing, private pilot lessons,state driver licenses and while they're at it grant them the right to vote. Such rhetoric, and plainly meant to inflame at that. Not one person out here has even come close to suggesting anything close to this be done with the detainees. Good grief.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 6:12:26 PM
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cog41
Posts: 622
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
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quote:
Such rhetoric, and plainly meant to inflame at that. Not one person out here has even come close to suggesting anything close to this be done with the detainees. Good grief.
Not rhetoric. It is how liberals think. The (5) Justices proved it. Let Miss ACLU ginsburg see that they get to trial. The detainees will love that.
After they're trials I say we let the detainees live in the neighborhoods of the fab 5 justices.
This country has lost all vision of reality. That EVIL exist! It exist in men,men who are bent on destroying our way of life, Our culture, our form of government, our worship or lack of it. Look at 9-11,the private contractors,Daniel Pearl,etc.etc.. These folks want to kill us.
So let them go and give them you're US civilian trial. Tell your kids and grandkids why these nonresident, not even illegal aliens deserve a "fair trial" in our civilian courts.
This will certainly come to haunts us in the near future.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 6:18:53 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2070
Joined: 9/23/2005
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Amen, cog.....
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"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 6:52:45 PM
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SweetPea213
Posts: 63
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
The old line of "if I haven't done anything wrong, I have nothing to fear" is no longer true in America. Please don't delude yourselves that it is.
Just out of curiosity have you ever heard of the Military Commissions Act of 2006? Scary stuff. Personally I think it's unconstitutional.
_____________________________
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." ~ 1 Peter 2:24
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 7:07:32 PM
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cog41
Posts: 622
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
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quote:
Personally I think it's unconstitutional.
There are alot of things that may or may not be unconstitutional.
To determine this should include our courts, our legislators and ultimately we the people of these United States. Not the world court,not European opinion, Asian or middle eastern culture,not simply our courts but WE the people,the citizens of the God Blessed United States of America.
"the final arbiter is the people"....Thomas Jefferson
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 7:29:31 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
The first is that as much as we restrain ourselves to comply with legal wrangling that have nothing to do with the war, we limit our ability to actually fight, capture, and kill the enemy.
Legal wrangling? Do you really think it is acceptable for the USA to hold prisoners indefinitely without formally charging them or otherwise informing them why they are being held?
Or do we only live by our values when we are not threatened?
quote:
The other reason is that a Commander and Chief who wanted to avoid such wrangling for the sake of effectively fighting this war would simply order that no prisoners be taken, and that all captives be turned over to trusted local authorities (who will do much worse to them than anything that has happened at Gitmo) or they will simply ask for the local authorities to to help capture and kill terrorists, and reward them whether such people are dead or alive.
Ironically, the United States did just that...
< Message edited by wing2000 -- 6/13/2008 7:36:16 PM >
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 7:57:54 PM
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SweetPea213
Posts: 63
Joined: 2/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cog41
quote:
Personally I think it's unconstitutional.
There are alot of things that may or may not be unconstitutional.
To determine this should include our courts, our legislators and ultimately we the people of these United States. Not the world court,not European opinion, Asian or middle eastern culture,not simply our courts but WE the people,the citizens of the God Blessed United States of America.
"the final arbiter is the people"....Thomas Jefferson
Have you even heard of what could be done to law abiding, tax paying AMERICAN citizens according to the Military Commissions Act of 2006? United States Congrees approved this piece of garbage and it was signed by the American President George W. Bush on October 17, 2006. The MCA isn't a document from the world court, EU, Asian/Middle Eastern/any other culture, but that of the United States.
check this out:
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/detention/commissions.html
Believe it or not, criminals are people too and should be treated as people.
_____________________________
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." ~ 1 Peter 2:24
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 8:45:54 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
Gee, there weren't any between 1993 and 2001 either
wrong
The first world trade center bombing for one.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 8:48:09 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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This is as a wrong decision as the Dred Scott decision and Caey vs Planned Parenthood decision/
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/13/2008 9:47:48 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Admitted personal body guard to Osama Bin Laden not enough for you?
Tell me what role he played in any of the terrorist attacks over the years and I'll tell you if it is enough. Being a member of his entourage isn't a crime. Perhaps people would sleep better if we captured Osama's personal chef, maid and manicurist?
quote:
Irrelevant to the ruling.
It is totally relevant. If we were at war we would shut off the southern border. There has been many stories of Muslims from the Middle East coming through that border. We'll prevent Canadian firemen from helping to save American lives because of this war but we won't shut down Muslims from crossing the southwest border. What kind of way to fight this war is that? Convince me of the wisdom and I'll apologize for even making the statement.
quote:
Gitmo isn’t about ‘Iraq’, it’s about the terrorist war against the US, which you seem to believe doesn’t exist.
I'm sorry but that is what I get for listening to Dubya.
After September the 11th, I made a commitment to the American people: This nation will not wait to be attacked again. We will defend our freedom. We will take the fight to the enemy. Iraq is the latest battlefield in this war. Dubya June 28, 2005.
Unlike the President though you are correct. 95% of the detainees were captured by Pakistanees or the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan.
I'm not afraid though does that make me a liberal?
I did however go through some of the detainees declassified records. There are some who are total slime there are some who should be treated as PoW's. I'm too tired to think right now so it's best that I shut up so apologies for the part of this that should have been edited. :P
Here's the link this is actually fascinating reading:
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/detainees/csrt_arb/
< Message edited by rlj -- 6/13/2008 10:09:19 PM >
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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