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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/20/2008 11:20:06 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stronger2day
...and I honestly think if it were murder and everyone thought that and believed that there would be less abortion at least.
quote:
I don't agree with this. I am willing to bet that most individuals know that homicide is wrong, rape is wrong, theft is wrong, but have those numbers reduced throughout the years? Using decisions of society as a litmus test is dangerous indeed.
I disagree. I think if most thought that an abortion was exactly the same as killing (for example) a 20 year old, there would be less at least. I never said it'd be non-existent in my original. My opinion; it's within your right to disagree with me. I just disagree with you. :) I don't think that will happen though because we don't all agree on when personhood begins, even us Christians. Abortion up to a point is really okay to some because there is no sin if there is no murder in the first place. You believe what you do, but so does every other Christian...
So, Soprano, why do you believe what you believe?
*sigh* Trying again.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/20/2008 12:02:03 PM
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CCCdnt
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I have not yet read all the posts, but I wanted to post anyway.
For those that believe/think that life does not begin at conception and believe that abortion is okay up until a certain time, I have to ask - does the life of a child mean so little to you that you would take the chance? Even if you are right, there is virtually no way to know for sure when that cut off time would be. Should not erring on the side of caution be the position you should take since this is a human life at stake, and not just any life, but the life of a baby?
_____________________________
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See for Yourself
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/20/2008 12:14:23 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 338
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I have not yet read all the posts, but I wanted to post anyway.
For those that believe/think that life does not begin at conception and believe that abortion is okay up until a certain time, I have to ask - does the life of a child mean so little to you that you would take the chance? Even if you are right, there is virtually no way to know for sure when that cut off time would be. Should not erring on the side of caution be the position you should take since this is a human life at stake, and not just any life, but the life of a baby?
Great questions, but don't expect any answers. Those that are pro-death (at any point during pregnancy) cannot seem to logically and intelligently defend their views. They, typically, dance around the questions and "answer" with emotions and a lot of "I think...". Even when confronted with scientific evidence of brain activity extremely early in the pregnancy, pain experienced by the baby at very early in-utereo stages, etc., they cannot/will not answer. They just ignore the evidence.
How very sad and how very scary to be in that position before God!!!
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/20/2008 12:27:40 PM
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Stronger2day
Posts: 106
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stronger2day
...and I honestly think if it were murder and everyone thought that and believed that there would be less abortion at least.
quote:
I don't agree with this. I am willing to bet that most individuals know that homicide is wrong, rape is wrong, theft is wrong, but have those numbers reduced throughout the years? Using decisions of society as a litmus test is dangerous indeed.
quote:
I disagree. I think if most thought that an abortion was exactly the same as killing (for example) a 20 year old, there would be less at least. I never said it'd be non-existent in my original. My opinion; it's within your right to disagree with me. I just disagree with you. :) I don't think that will happen though because we don't all agree on when personhood begins, even us Christians. Abortion up to a point is really okay to some because there is no sin if there is no murder in the first place. You believe what you do, but so does every other Christian...
Soprano, I've read as you've represented the views of others, what are your exact views? If you were in this situation (hypothetically of course), elected to terminate the baby, during what timeframe would you feel comfortable doing that (week 4? week8?)? I am serious with my question- I don't believe a couple of us understand where you stand on this.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/20/2008 7:50:43 PM
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DenimDiva
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I would be interested in hearing more of Solo's point of view as well.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/20/2008 8:21:37 PM
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tafkam
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Week 4, week 5, week 8.....I'd just like to hear any of the pro-death proponents explain why one day it's okay to kill a baby but the next day...presto-abracadabra!....it's not.
But then this is the same group who apparently believes that there is something magical about that inches-long trip down the birth canal that makes one baby eligible for abortion (partial birth) and another ineligible.....
< Message edited by tafkam -- 6/20/2008 8:59:21 PM >
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/20/2008 8:25:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Week 4, week 5, week 8.....I'd just like to hear any of the pro-death proponents explain why one day it's okay to kill a baby but the next day...presto-abracadabra!....it's not.
But then this is the same group who apprently believes that there is something magical about that inches-long trip down the birth canal that makes one baby eligible for abortion (partial birth) and another ineligible.....
Someone day it will be known to all that killing in the womb is no less murder than beating a child to death in crib with a baseball bat.... Of course it will be too late...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/20/2008 8:39:01 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 532
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Support for abortion is wickedness and there just isnt any way around that.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/22/2008 2:37:57 AM
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Stronger2day
Posts: 106
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stronger2day
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stronger2day
...and I honestly think if it were murder and everyone thought that and believed that there would be less abortion at least.
quote:
I don't agree with this. I am willing to bet that most individuals know that homicide is wrong, rape is wrong, theft is wrong, but have those numbers reduced throughout the years? Using decisions of society as a litmus test is dangerous indeed.
quote:
I disagree. I think if most thought that an abortion was exactly the same as killing (for example) a 20 year old, there would be less at least. I never said it'd be non-existent in my original. My opinion; it's within your right to disagree with me. I just disagree with you. :) I don't think that will happen though because we don't all agree on when personhood begins, even us Christians. Abortion up to a point is really okay to some because there is no sin if there is no murder in the first place. You believe what you do, but so does every other Christian...
Soprano, I've read as you've represented the views of others, what are your exact views? If you were in this situation (hypothetically of course), elected to terminate the baby, during what timeframe would you feel comfortable doing that (week 4? week8?)? I am serious with my question- I don't believe a couple of us understand where you stand on this.
Either I have offended Soprano or she forgotten about this thread...
edited for grammer- my bad.
< Message edited by Stronger2day -- 6/22/2008 1:47:16 PM >
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/22/2008 5:04:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
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Regardless.... 3500 unborn children will be murdered in cold blood today... And some folks here believe God grants His blessing on it...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/22/2008 6:03:30 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 532
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Regardless.... 3500 unborn children will be murdered in cold blood today... And some folks here believe God grants His blessing on it...
John
And if it hasent started allready, that amount of innocent blood shed on a daily basis will bring this nation into judgement.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/22/2008 9:14:27 PM
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CCCdnt
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There were one or more earlier posts (post #21) that referred to Exodus 21:22-25 as evidence that the Bible speaks of injury or death occurring to the unborn and then some comments from someone that spoke somewhat against that post (post #24). These verses actually do refer to when harm occurs to the unborn. The verses refer to a premature birth and not to a miscarriage.
Exodus 21:22-25
NIV - 22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
NASB - 22"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
KJV - 22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
ESV - 22"When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
NKJV - 22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
(emphasis mine)
As can be seen, these verses do not refer to a miscarriage, but to an early birth of a child. Therefore, this is saying that if a woman delivers her baby early from being struck, in this case, by men fighting, and there is no injury (to the mother or child) then the man is just fined by the woman’s husband. But if there is any injury (to the child or mother), then “you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”
What follows is taken from the article - Exodus 21:22-25: Translations & Mistranslations:
"The Hebrew word mistranslated miscarriage in this verse is "yatsa," which actually means to "come out" or "give birth." This word is regularly used for live birth in the OT. In fact, it is never used for miscarriage, though it is used once for still birth. In this passage, as in virtually all OT texts, it refers to a live, though premature birth.
........
The Hebrew doesn't indicate if the injuries in question are those sustained by the woman or the child(ren). A reading, just by glancing at the order of the words (not a strong argument for Hebrew) and by the force of the case of the pronouns (a stronger argument) would indicate that the possible injuries are relative to either. The great Hebrew scholar, Umberto Cassuto, wrote, "But if any mischief happen, that is, if the woman dies or the children die, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, etc.: you, 0 judge (or you, 0 Israel, through the judge who represents you) shall adopt the principle of 'life for life,' etc." Clearly this point places an equal value on both woman and child in calling for punishment if either is injured or killed. "
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/23/2008 3:02:49 AM
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Stronger2day
Posts: 106
Joined: 5/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I'm between blood and brain function, but brain funtion makes logical sense to me as when the biology becomes a life. (As opposed to blood, which just keeps the body alive.) Conception is the beginning of the human genome; it's not the beginning of a soul (in my opinion) and person. That comes later.
Here is part of an answer from an earlier post....but still vague.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/23/2008 5:40:52 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1346
Joined: 3/30/2008
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And G-d forgives murder.
And those who abort....
It's funny to me to see "pro-life" stop at abortions.
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
My granddaughter Niara
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/23/2008 2:56:33 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6023
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From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
It's funny to me to see "pro-life" stop at abortions.
I don't understand what you mean by that statement.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/23/2008 3:42:11 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2315
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I'm not offended at all (answering an above post). :) There's nothing for me to be offended about. I just decided it's a pointless thread. Every thread about abortion and personhood goes round and round... in the same pattern that this one is going/went. No one gets anywhere or proves anything... no one's beliefs change. People state their side, why they believe it, and why that's the way of God in their minds. They debate when personhood begins (with no proof for their side or mine), attack each other, and attack the Christianity of the person who believes something different than they do. No one really knows what Christian belief is God's belief, but everyone thinks that their belief is God's belief. It's hard to prove what God's stance is when no one knows, but everyone probably thinks they do. There's no point in my arguing to me. I think I'm believing what God holds, but so does every other Christian. I respect that though. I don't mind that some Christians believe that life begins at conception although I am a Christians who believes otherwise. :)
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/23/2008 4:35:03 PM
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Stronger2day
Posts: 106
Joined: 5/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I'm not offended at all (answering an above post). :) There's nothing for me to be offended about. I just decided it's a pointless thread. Every thread about abortion and personhood goes round and round... in the same pattern that this one is going/went. No one gets anywhere or proves anything... no one's beliefs change. People state their side, why they believe it, and why that's the way of God in their minds. They debate when personhood begins (with no proof for their side or mine), attack each other, and attack the Christianity of the person who believes something different than they do. No one really knows what Christian belief is God's belief, but everyone thinks that their belief is God's belief. It's hard to prove what God's stance is when no one knows, but everyone probably thinks they do. There's no point in my arguing to me. I think I'm believing what God holds, but so does every other Christian. I respect that though. I don't mind that some Christians believe that life begins at conception although I am a Christians who believes otherwise. :)
Thank you for returning. I understand that our stances on abortion are vastly different, still would you please answer my inquiry from post #229? I want to understand during what timeframe you feel it would be acceptable to abort (if you made the choice to abort a baby). You made reference to blood function/brain fuction, but it is still a bit vague.
Thank you.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/23/2008 9:51:07 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 532
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
It's funny to me to see "pro-life" stop at abortions.
I take it from this that you are referencing Capital punishment. My answer is that those who are pro-life are pro-innocent life. What is funnier still is those who demonstrate outside of a prison to spare the life of a murderer while at the same time supporting abortionists who offer babies up to their god Moloch upon stainless steel altars in abortion temples.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/24/2008 12:00:24 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1346
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From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
I don't understand what you mean by that statement.
Example: I'm pro-life but I like the death penalty.
I'm pro-life but kill those turban wearing moslems, they are our enemies. etc.
Jesus came so that we may have abundent life but we should live by the Law in the OT, and take eye for eye.
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
My granddaughter Niara
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/24/2008 3:30:05 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Example: I'm pro-life but I like the death penalty.
Wonderful discernment... By all means explain how a unborn child and a convicted killer are the same... And please take into account that in order to receive the death penalty one generally had to do something beyond simply killing someone...
quote:
I'm pro-life but kill those turban wearing moslems, they are our enemies. etc.
Not all Moslems are the enemy, but those who are and who are killed are liken to a unborn child in what way?
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/24/2008 6:48:48 AM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 9428
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
or is emotionally unstable and cannot handle the stress that comes with pregnancy.
That's every teenage girl. Pregnant or not. That's a pathetic excuse, in my opinion.
quote:
Under the age of 18, she is just a dumb teenager and made a stupid mistake she isn't old enough to pay for, and I think she deserves another chance before she has to throw her life away.
Basically, the above quote translated would appear:
"She should get an abortion because a baby will ruin her life."
I have a problem with that. A child should be considered a blessing, no matter the case. Getting an abortion isn't going to keep her from making the same mistake twice and a thousand times over.
That's an innocent baby's death multiplied over a mistake that it had no choice in the matter.
Has anyone ever stopped to think, "what if my mother would've chosen an abortion?" - you wouldn't be arguing on a message board, with you not existing and all. That could put a damper on your evening.
quote:
Forcing a woman to give birth even though her body cannot handle it is murder.
How you view that as murder and not abortion is baffling to me.
_____________________________
Cynicism is an unpleasant way of saying the truth.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/24/2008 1:21:26 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2099
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
It's hard to prove what God's stance is when no one knows, but everyone probably thinks they do. There's no point in my arguing to me. I think I'm believing what God holds, but so does every other Christian. I respect that though. I don't mind that some Christians believe that life begins at conception although I am a Christians who believes otherwise. :)
Well, the proi-life side has provided Scripture ad nauseum that tells us God places value on life even before conception, but the pro-death side blows it off by saying, "Well, I don't see that." How convenient.
But the pro-death side can't seem to offer any Scripture that endorses the torturous dismemberment and murder of unborn children, opting instead to hide behind explanations prefaced with the phrase "Well, I believe....". I some will go to any lengths to justify sin.
Okay, so we can't agree or prove our position to each other, yet you are willing to play God to a degree and make the call that apparently it is okay up to a certain point in the development of a child to abort that child.
Are you really comfortable with that? Do you ever consider the fact that you may be wrong?
Here's a hint: if the pro-life side is wrong, we have nothing to fear being called into account for, because we chose to protect life from the beginning, and nobody died because of our support for that position. If the pro-abortion side is wrong, and we get to the end and God says, "Yes, life is valuable even from conception", then that's going to be a mighty awkward position to be in.
Yes, God forgives, but for us to knowingly continue in unrepentant sin says a lot about who we are or are not as Christians....
< Message edited by tafkam -- 6/24/2008 1:29:24 PM >
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/25/2008 3:05:41 PM
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endless_night
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ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Example: I'm pro-life but I like the death penalty.
Generalization. It can also go the other way.
quote:
I'm pro-life but kill those turban wearing moslems, they are our enemies. etc.
Assumption or generalization, whichever.
quote:
Jesus came so that we may have abundent life but we should live by the Law in the OT, and take eye for eye.
I don't know where you are getting this from.
I'm pro-life because I feel that only God should decide who lives or dies, in any situation. I completely understand there are some situations that are so complicated that you don't know what to do except pray (i.e. if someone is in a coma and have no brain activity what-so-ever. The machine is keeping them alive and you have a choice to make. I couldn't pull the plug but I can see how others would have a touch decision to face). I especially could not go, with the intention to kill someone if I know they don't know Christ, their soul is so much more important to me then that. Before someone ask, NO, I could not kill someone even if they are saved in Christ.
_____________________________
The Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praises endures forever.
Psalms 111:10
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