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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 2:45:21 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2945
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
FDR's TVA and CCC programs to name two.
Especially the CCC - where unemployed people were put to work building roads, soil conservation projects, etc. And I know it's coming...a big uproar at how awful you all think FDR was - but this is my opinion, I've argued with some and won't change my mind on this. And, though I am not of that generation, both of my parents spoke in high regard for FDR and his new deal - suprisingly so since my mom was a Republican all her life until 1984.
Thanks, Peace and God bless,
Weren't those programs more about job creation than anything else? How does that qualify as those times being the "good old days"?
I was asked to give an example of where the government stepped in and did provide a great service without pork-barrelling. CCC and TVA were - they trained unemployed people to build roads, parks, conservation programs for the US - the first 'workfare' programs.
Perhaps I misunderstood.
Peace and God bless,
Lizahana,
CCC is not comparable. It was a temporary program, and knowing the federal government's track record, it would have been unwieldy if it had been allowed to remain. Any success it's known for was helped by its short duration, i.e., not enough time for the bureaucrats and politicians to get in there and mess it up.
As for TVA, that has a long history of being associated with pork, so not a good example at all. Don't take my word for any of this though. Read up on it yourself if you want to really know.
Blessings.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 2:49:14 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
And do you think it'd hurt them if they charged a little less? I don't think so - not at the rate they pay their lobbyists so they can whisper in the polictians ears to 'Stay the course' as it is right now with our broken healthcare system.
The reason they don't charge less is that the market forces have been limited. In other words, the market is very small. It is mostly some insurance companies, the federal government and a small minority of individuals who pay for insurance by themselves. If most people were paying for most of their medical care themselves, there would be more market forces bearing down on the cost of these goods. Someone selling something can only get what people can generally afford. But the government, and the insurance companies are keeping things jacked up. Look at the price of houses that are coming down. Why? Because the lenders finally quit artificially propping up the prices. That would happen if the government and employer provided insurance (done through a few major insurance companies) were to withdraw from the market. That's not going to happen, but it would be great if it did and in a way that's not quite as dramatic as the lenders withdrawing from the mortgage market as they have.
Here's something a lot of people don't know but need to realize. Insurance companies and drug companies and most big health care providers LOVE that the government is involved. That is a gravy train. They know that, and know that the governmet basically sets the price for healthcare, and it's high. To let market forces truly come in to play is not something they want. There are a few who do, and they are the minority -- mostly a minority of doctors but certainly no hopsitals or other providers.
Well, as I understand it - the private companies are the ones out of control. I know this first hand - they have so much money from overcharging everyone that they can go and buy out other clinics.
The clinic I go to use to be Milwaukee Medical - then it changed to Advanced Healthcare - but now Aurora bought it out; is tearing the whole buidling down (rather than re-using the exisiting building) and building another one right next to it!
Sorry - not buying it. Private insurance companies, clinics, hospitals overcharge so much they can buy politicians, they can buy out other private clinics.
And another thing that really gets my goat - I have asthma and get chronic bronchitis. I used to get this great 5-day generic antibioitic for a $7 co-pay. My pharmicist told me that the big pharmaceutical company sued the one that made the generic anti-biotic, so now I have to pay $40 copayment! This doesn't bother me too much, but can you imagine someone that didn't have health insurance?
And why can Mexico and Canada sell the medications for so much less than the US can? And why does the Whitehouse try to block people from wanting to buy these cheaper medications, when they are the very same medications?
Peace and God bless,
Lizahana,
I agree the private companies are out of control, but don't think that the government is not part of it. They are, and a big part. They have helped facilitate the private companies being out of control. What do you think happened to drug prices when the prescription drug program was put in place by medicare? Oh, I know drugs were already too high, and that mostly due to the fact that market forces with the insurance companies and drug cards have allowed people not to feel the pinch for years, and here we are. But I'm talking about the drug prices after the presciption drug program. They went up. Why? Because too many health care providers look at the government like a gravy train and yes, government regulation cots more. But I believe getting on the gravy train has more to do with it than the cost of regulation.
Did you know that 90+% of the hospitals in this country were truly run as non-profits when Medicare was signed into law, and by the early 70s the majority were in it for the money. I have some documentation buried in my basement that attests to this. I wish I could cite my source, but it won't hurt my feelings if you don't take my word for it. However, I know I can make these statements with confidence because the documentation is out there on the web to back it up.
I apologize - I am just not understanding how the government is helping keeping the drug prices high - how are they? I have not read about this - could you provide links? Is the government telling the drug companies that they have to charge more? I'm not understanding...
And please keep in mind that to ~ 75% of Americans - our healthcare system is 100% privatized because we do not qualify for Medicare, Medicaid at all.
See you later, probably Sunday. Lots of summer guests are coming!
Peace and God bless,
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 3:15:36 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2945
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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When the government gets into a market, they are such a big part of the market, they create a lot more demand, so the price goes up. Others in the business would be foolish not to charge this higher price. Here's another way to think of it. If someone is selling a house, they set the price around what people are paying at that time. What people are paying is usually determined by what other houses have sold for. So if someone sells a house for a high price, chances are their neighbor who has a comparable house and wants to sell near that same time can charge a similar price. The only way the trend is stopped is if the purchasers are not willing or able to buy the houses for the higher price. That's what we're seeing in the housing market.
But here's the rest of the story. The government relies on the private sector (this includes lobbyists) to tell it what it should pay for a service. Talk about some backroom deals! This is where the rubber meets the road. Don't ever think those deals aren't being made about how to get some of the gravy the government has. BTW, both parties are guilty of this in spades. It's not about the parties. It's about people who let power go to their heads, and a lot of people do that when they aren't held in check. Obama is right in the thick of it as well. Look at him railing about the mortgage situation and he's got a guy tied up with Countrywide on his staff. That has a really bad smell to it. But he's just one among many. I think almost all of the politicians in Washington are dirty -- I don't care what party they're part of.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 3:22:50 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 217
Joined: 2/17/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
quote:
However, I know some that do not. Some do not, like my neighbor, who started a local charity out of her own garage - ran it successfully for 20+ years. She gave so much to people in need. Now, with chronic back problems, she was dropped by her insurance company. She may have to either sell her house or take a 2nd mortgage to pay for her surgeries; or, just live with sometimes debilitating back pain.
Sad story... wow... well.. choices choices? Not the tax payers problem. The reality is that she has had options and this is the option she choses. KEY WORDS "CHOOSES and CHOICE." All that personal responsibility junk ya' know.
maybe you didn't read the post, freak. She did not choose to be dropped by the insurance company, she had purchased insurance. She also did not choose to get sick.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 3:25:12 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
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Lizahana,
Why was your friend/neighbor dropped from her insurance company?
I mean to ask what reason did the insurance company give? What happened?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 3:27:14 PM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
Posts: 1535
Joined: 7/5/2006
From: Kentucky
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I am dead-set against government run health care. I am for universal coverage, meaning that everyone should have some type of health insurance, but I am against the government running the health-care system. The government can't run the things it is already responsible for (think Social Security) so why should we trust them to run our health care system?
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 3:28:42 PM
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freakofnature
Posts: 819
Joined: 1/17/2008
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quote:
She did not choose to be dropped by the insurance
But she has to choose to either sell her house or refinance? What don't you get... Dude, we all fall on hard times... Dang it Huh? My brother, loosing his house in foreclosure, my parents, may also be. Tough times for everyone, neither complain... MOVE ON. Good Lord... Why don't you move in with Lizahana's neighbor or better yet, just send her a check every month so she can get insurance. I have four kids to feed so I need as much of my paycheck as possible.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 3:54:09 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 217
Joined: 2/17/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
I am dead-set against government run health care. I am for universal coverage, meaning that everyone should have some type of health insurance, but I am against the government running the health-care system. The government can't run the things it is already responsible for (think Social Security) so why should we trust them to run our health care system?
Maybe we should elect people that CAN do these things.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 3:56:28 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
I am dead-set against government run health care. I am for universal coverage, meaning that everyone should have some type of health insurance, but I am against the government running the health-care system. The government can't run the things it is already responsible for (think Social Security) so why should we trust them to run our health care system?
Maybe we should elect people that CAN do these things.
Isn't that what everyone has been trying to do though? It's not as easy as you make it sound.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 3:59:09 PM
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freakofnature
Posts: 819
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quote:
Isn't that what everyone has been trying to do though? It's not as easy as you make it sound.
My grandfather used to tell me "Congressmen are nothing more then glorified village idots, as long as the village has it's idiot, the village will be respresented in Washingon."
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 4:16:40 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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With all the talk for and against nationalized health care I've a question that's never really been answered to my satisfaction.
What happens to people who can't afford health insurance, and thereby can't afford medical costs? There are a lot of people who can't qualify for charity assistance and, by and large, the Church doesn't seem to be stepping up to help people in this matter. So what happens to those people who can't afford it? Do we just let them fall by the wayside or be sued for money that they don't have?
I'm interested to know what people think.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 4:20:20 PM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
Posts: 1535
Joined: 7/5/2006
From: Kentucky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
I am dead-set against government run health care. I am for universal coverage, meaning that everyone should have some type of health insurance, but I am against the government running the health-care system. The government can't run the things it is already responsible for (think Social Security) so why should we trust them to run our health care system?
Maybe we should elect people that CAN do these things.
Why should we? Our Founding Fathers wanted limited government. Maybe we should go back to that principle instead of making government bigger and more powerful. You may want someone to run every aspect of your life but I certainly don't!
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 4:21:51 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2945
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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I actually know quite a few people who have no insurance. I know that the church here has helped them, but I've also advised them to tell their healthcare providers and work out a deal. Guess what? To a person, the provider has cut their rate because that person does not cost as much to deal with as someone who has insurance or Medicare/Medicaid.
In the major cities there are now doctors who are opting out of being medicare/medicaid providers and also opting out of taking any insurance. My mother went to a doctor like this a couple of years ago just to see what he was like. He had people standing in his office waiting for care, because his rates were so good. He charged, (are you ready?) $15 for an office visit. He also had a lab and didn't charge and arm and a leg for that either. Why could he do this? Because he did not have to set the rate that Medicare basically told him to set or that he felt he had to set with the insurance companies in order to cover the cost of doing business with them.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 4:24:18 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2945
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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Oh, btw, that doctor was in his late 50s at the time and is very respected. He just got sick of the game you have to play with insurance companies and the government.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 4:31:26 PM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
Posts: 1535
Joined: 7/5/2006
From: Kentucky
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Bzirk, we could use more doctors like that!
Getting back to the question about affording medical care, I know my church helps people, either financially or by helping people find a job with medical benefits. The jobs are not through the church either. Members of our congregation are always on the lookout for job openings where they work and pass that info on to those who need them. They also put in a good word to those making the hiring decision. More often than not, our church members get the jobs.
When the chips are down, my church puts aside any petty differences we may have and steps up as one to help others.
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 7:24:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
I would rather trust elected officials that I elect than a private company that is only looking out for the bottom line.
What makes you think elected officials don't have a bottom line? Politics is as much a bussiness as the health care industry...
quote:
But I can understand not wanting the gov't to run health care. I certainly do not trust the current administration to do much at all.
Not enough folk even trusted the previous administration regarding health care...
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When we elect a party that hates government, we should not expect them to govern well.
To some degree those fine folks who setup our government had healty disdain for government, especially the style of centerlized goverment that we have morphed into... They tried their best to limit its powers and yet the we do our best to toss our freedoms out the window...
quote:
But once upon a time, our government was able to build highways, parks, and bridges, as well as create a safety net for those in need. Once upon a time, our government kept us out of war when it could, and won a war when it had to. Once, as a people, we stood up, through our government to monopolies that took advantage of people.
Now, we have gotten so used to bad government that we don't think it can do anything.
Actually too many folks have gotten used to the government doing for them... It has grown far beyond its means...
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I still believe that a democratically elected government can do some good things, and it isn't too much of a challenge to provide health care that is accessible and affordable, while still maintaining a high quality of service.
The government wasn't setup to do this...
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If anybody DOESN'T have enough faith in the American people to accomplish this, than I wouldn't vote for them!
The type of people that run the show in Washington can't deal with problems and issues at hand, why on earth would anyone have a the slightest desire to turn over heath care to people who would sell their mother off to win an election?
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 7:29:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
I would rather trust elected officials that I elect than a private company that is only looking out for the bottom line.
But I can understand not wanting the gov't to run health care. I certainly do not trust the current administration to do much at all.
When we elect a party that hates government, we should not expect them to govern well.
But once upon a time, our government was able to build highways, parks, and bridges, as well as create a safety net for those in need. Once upon a time, our government kept us out of war when it could, and won a war when it had to. Once, as a people, we stood up, through our government to monopolies that took advantage of people.
Now, we have gotten so used to bad government that we don't think it can do anything.
I still believe that a democratically elected government can do some good things, and it isn't too much of a challenge to provide health care that is accessible and affordable, while still maintaining a high quality of service. If anybody DOESN'T have enough faith in the American people to accomplish this, than I wouldn't vote for them!
Agreed and very well said.
Currently in the US, we have privatized healthcare, and it is painfully obvious that it does not work.
I, myself, have excellent health insurance - thank God because I have asthma, chronic bronchitis, allergies. However, I know some that do not. Some do not, like my neighbor, who started a local charity out of her own garage - ran it successfully for 20+ years. She gave so much to people in need. Now, with chronic back problems, she was dropped by her insurance company. She may have to either sell her house or take a 2nd mortgage to pay for her surgeries; or, just live with sometimes debilitating back pain. This is wrong, and it is echoed all across our country - sadly, also involving children, also involving people in even more dire situations.
There has to be some help from the government for those without, because our current privatized health care system is plainly not working. I would gladly pay more taxes to help people like my neighbor - who gladly helped others when they were in need.
Nothing in the world is stopping you from paying for other folk’s health care... You don't have to wait for the central government to take over before you can start helping out others...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 7:40:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Well, most people I know (I'm not a senior) do not have access to Medicare. My mother gets it, but has to supplement it with other insurance because it's not enough.
Most of the people I know in California get it... My sister had two children on the state's dime...
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And, I think PhunkD hit the nail on the head - we once did have a government that built great roads, parks - ie, provided great services with little or no political pork-barreling.
Pipe dream.... Living in the past... And building great roads doesn't mean anything when you don't maintain them... As well part of the reason you have a bloated and self serving system is because the government thought it could be more than what it was intended to be...
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I, like him, believe the government can do this again - only in the realm of health care.
I suggest you two take a drive down one of those great dilapidated roads before you think it's a smart move to hand over health care to people who pay 50 million dollars to get a job that pays 125,00 a year...
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And I don't believe in a single payer system - I believe in more of a mixture of private, public help - much in the Obama is advocating.
Which will in time include mandate that private companies must insure their employees... Tyranny 101... Anything the ungldy Obama is advocating should be avoided...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 7:50:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Well, as PhunkD pointed out, and I had almost forgotten, there was a time in our history when this was not the case. It's time to bring that back.
Isn't going to happen... Not when you have people speanding millions on bathrooms next to a highway with their name on it...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 7:55:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
I was the only one thinking that. How smart is it to "hire" people who hate government to run it?
Those who setup this government didn't have any real love for government... Most people think they were pretty smart...
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I would gladly pay more taxes to help people like my neighbor - who gladly helped others when they were in need. Ditto to that.
You don't have to wait for more taxes to help....
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 8:00:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Well, as I understand it - the private companies are the ones out of control. I know this first hand - they have so much money from overcharging everyone that they can go and buy out other clinics.
The clinic I go to use to be Milwaukee Medical - then it changed to Advanced Healthcare - but now Aurora bought it out; is tearing the whole buidling down (rather than re-using the exisiting building) and building another one right next to it!
I would wager they were forced to by the local government... That type of thing is very common here...
quote:
And why can Mexico and Canada sell the medications for so much less than the US can? And why does the Whitehouse try to block Americans from buying these cheaper medications from Canada and a host of other countries, when they are the very same medications?
My guess it's due to the big government you are so fond of...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/20/2008 8:04:03 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
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However, I know some that do not. Some do not, like my neighbor, who started a local charity out of her own garage - ran it successfully for 20+ years. She gave so much to people in need. Now, with chronic back problems, she was dropped by her insurance company. She may have to either sell her house or take a 2nd mortgage to pay for her surgeries; or, just live with sometimes debilitating back pain.
Sad story... wow... well.. choices choices? Not the tax payers problem. The reality is that she has had options and this is the option she choses. KEY WORDS "CHOOSES and CHOICE." All that personal responsibility junk ya' know.
maybe you didn't read the post, freak. She did not choose to be dropped by the insurance company, she had purchased insurance. She also did not choose to get sick.
How do we really know what happened? It's second hand information...And like any personal story posted to support a view it can be countered with another personal story… Which means for the most part it's meaningless...
John
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