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Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/18/2008 5:51:02 PM
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HisCovenant
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Whenever there is a discussion about Spiritual Gifts, there is always debate as to whether certain gifts are still being used in the Church. As the discussion continues, you hear that the "Office of Apostle" or the "Office of Prophet" is no longer valid. I'm wondering where these ideas find their basis in the Scripture.
Can anyone point me in the direction of verses that state such an office existed and when it ended? I'm sure so many denominations and scholars must have Biblical basis for these beliefs or they wouldn't be so prevalant in the Church... but I'm not seeing it.
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/18/2008 5:57:39 PM
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earthless
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I wish I could easily find all of the excellent posts made (especially in the 'Church' sub-forum) that fully respond to your questions.
Let me see if I get some free time after dinner to look them up for you.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/18/2008 6:02:12 PM
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HisCovenant
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Thanks. I'll try to dig a little in there, too. This is something I've heard my whole life, but have never seen the Scripture that say it... just Christian teachers saying it.
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/18/2008 7:15:09 PM
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LCannon
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Romans 12:6-"We have faculties unique to the grace given us; exercise them according to one’s level of simple faith. 7 Seize your opportunities for service and in so doing teach the validity of Christ’s sacrifice. 8 When he exhorts to further obedience, exhort for the spiritual growth of the body since you’ll be included. When he gives, give in cooperation [for] God will accomplish His purposes and missing an opportunity to participate with God’s sacrifice misses our blessing to be involved. When one is a leader, lead with authority and diligence; When you’re called to show mercy, show mercy genuinely 9[and]let your love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is arrogant but cling to what is obedient to Christ."
There's no doubt the 'gifts of the Spirit' are evident and should be present in a saint's life experience. I think the dispute comes when redeemed souls assert the 'sign gifts', healings, miracle, signs to the unrepentant, largely, or OT saints that Jesus was who he claimed to be, are touted as a special dispensation as further 'proof' of a higher plain. As the gospel and especially the letters from the apostles fleshed out a personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit the 'sign gifts' waned.
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(Psalm 17:15)
"To see God and to be like Him; what more can I desire? I believe it and I expect it."
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/18/2008 8:19:58 PM
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JesKlu
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I think the office of Apostle was only held by the 12 that Jesus chose, and then He later on Called Paul to be the Apostle to the gentiles. So, technically, there are only 13 Apostles. That office is done.
But, the gift of prophecy I am sure is still around today. But there are a lot of false prophets, so we have to be weary.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica
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And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/18/2008 11:42:52 PM
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Godhead
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The only office in the Church that are at work now are faith, hope and love and they are more then enouph. Anyone claiming to have any power is similar to Simon in Acts 8:9-11.
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But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/19/2008 9:58:35 AM
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HisCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
I think the office of Apostle was only held by the 12 that Jesus chose, and then He later on Called Paul to be the Apostle to the gentiles. So, technically, there are only 13 Apostles. That office is done.
I don't think this fits with scripture because others are called apostles (at least 13 being the definitive number of apostles) : Acts 14:14, Rom 16:17, Gal 1:19.
What scripture tells you/ leads you to believe that there are no more apostles in the church?
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-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/19/2008 9:05:13 PM
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LBolt
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HisCovenant, there are no verses in the Bible that prove that there aren't any Apostles and Prophets...this is false doctrine taught as doctrine. Many on these forums have taken on the task of confronting error in particular movements in the Body of Messiah and they have sound and valid points...but if we were to start examining their teachings in light of the scriptures, it would show some falsehoods as well!
The problem is with the hiearchial domineering practices of those who call themselves Apostles and prophets. What we have is a strong misunderstanding of these ministry offices on both sides of the spectrum.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 6/19/2008 10:24:01 PM >
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/19/2008 11:23:43 PM
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URForgiven
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"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." Hebrews 1:1,2
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev. 21:14
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 6/19/2008 11:50:11 PM >
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/20/2008 12:30:59 AM
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awaken
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
The only office in the Church that are at work now are faith, hope and love and they are more then enouph. Anyone claiming to have any power is similar to Simon in Acts 8:9-11.
How are these listed as offices in the body?
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/20/2008 2:02:45 PM
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LBolt
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Awaken, Godhead will not be able to rightly answer this question because his statement is based on falsehoods! LOL
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/21/2008 12:10:21 PM
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HisCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." Hebrews 1:1,2
It's quite a leap to get from "has spoken" to "will continue to speak only..." way too big of a leap for building doctrine. Not to mention, the Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit will be speaking with us and through us.
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-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/21/2008 1:18:37 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." Hebrews 1:1,2
It's quite a leap to get from "has spoken" to "will continue to speak only..." way too big of a leap for building doctrine. Not to mention, the Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit will be speaking with us and through us.
I am not building doctrine, simply providing a scripture that addresses the OP.
The Holy Spirit takes that which is Christs and makes it known to us, He does not speak on His own.
"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you." John 16:12-14
Peace
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/21/2008 2:01:27 PM
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HisCovenant
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I understand... but all that comes form God... Prophets didn't speak on their own initiative; Angels didn't speak on their own initiative; Christ didn't speak on his own initiative; The Holy Spirit doesn't speak on his own initiative; the apostles didn't speak on their own initiative; Preachers don't speak on their own initiative. It's all from God's mouth. How does that speak to whether the offices have past and whether or not the Holy Spirit still uses Prophets and Apostles (either as gifts or offices) in the Church? It doesn't... the only conclusion that I can draw is that God choses who He will speak through, but no inference on who/what He is chosing or will chose to speak through.
I really appreciate your providing scripture, because that's what I am looking for... but I am looking for scriptures that are difinitive about gifts and offices... scripture that is clear. Or at least an understanding of how a reasonable scholar could get from the scripture to the doctrine that offices and gifts are different things and that some have passed while others remain active. Surely there is a scriptural basis that doesn't take flying mental leaps and assumptions that aren't supported in the text? I'm convinced there must be or so many churches/denominations wouldn't be basing teachings on it... I just can't find it.
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-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/21/2008 2:18:38 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
I understand... but all that comes form God... Prophets didn't speak on their own initiative; Angels didn't speak on their own initiative; Christ didn't speak on his own initiative; The Holy Spirit doesn't speak on his own initiative; the apostles didn't speak on their own initiative; Preachers don't speak on their own initiative. It's all from God's mouth. How does that speak to whether the offices have past and whether or not the Holy Spirit still uses Prophets and Apostles (either as gifts or offices) in the Church? It doesn't... the only conclusion that I can draw is that God choses who He will speak through, but no inference on who/what He is chosing or will chose to speak through.
I really appreciate your providing scripture, because that's what I am looking for... but I am looking for scriptures that are difinitive about gifts and offices... scripture that is clear. Or at least an understanding of how a reasonable scholar could get from the scripture to the doctrine that offices and gifts are different things and that some have passed while others remain active. Surely there is a scriptural basis that doesn't take flying mental leaps and assumptions that aren't supported in the text? I'm convinced there must be or so many churches/denominations wouldn't be basing teachings on it... I just can't find it.
Definitive? LOL
If you find any Scripture that you believe all will agree is definitive... please share it with us...and I am sure it will quickly be apparent that 'definitive' is in the eye of the beholder, lol. It depends upon whose eyes we see with, and therin lies the rub.
I wish you well.
Peace
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 6/21/2008 2:26:09 PM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/21/2008 8:32:45 PM
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LBolt
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The basic premise behind the "no more apostles or prophets camp" is in I Corinthians 13:8-10, however in verse 12 (which is an allusion to Numbers 12:6-8) we hear of the phrase "face to face." If this is referring to the Word of God being complete (verses 8-10) and no more apostles or prophets, then why aren't all the gifts done away with? Since when is "face" the scriptures and not God Himself?
We are told that there will be 2 prophets in the last days that the AntiMessiah will make war with...Opps! Wait a minute...there are no more prophets!! According to modern evangelical theologians, that was done away with!
Do you see the error in this position? HisCovenant, I said it before and I'll say it again there aren't any scriptures that tells you when these gifts ended. It is false doctrine.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 6/22/2008 2:44:33 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/22/2008 5:56:51 PM
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HisCovenant
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I'm beginning to suspect you are right because I can't find a single scripture that substantiates that Offices are different than gifts and that some have passed and some haven't. And I'm looking hard.
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My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/22/2008 6:20:08 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
I'm beginning to suspect you are right because I can't find a single scripture that substantiates that Offices are different than gifts and that some have passed and some haven't. And I'm looking hard.
Well, I have the gift of prophecy but I am not a prophet.
Gift of prophesy:
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
Mine is done primarily through writing....
Prophet:
Act 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
Act 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/22/2008 6:30:29 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." Hebrews 1:1,2
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev. 21:14
Greetings,
in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." Hebrews 1:1,2
Then this means Jesus is still speaking, Jesus Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy but after which order is He speaking to us?
What does it mean to be risen according to the order of Melchizedek?
Heb 7:11 - Show Context
Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron
If Jesus spoke to us according to the order of Aaron then it would be imperfect by the reception of law,
Or as seen in Matthew 16:13-20 being according to the order of Aaron (man) is the difference to what men say and what God reveals,
That difference is what Jesus called the keys to the Kingdom in Matthew 16:13-20; and this is what is given to Apostles, a called Apostle should be teaching that which are perfect called Spiritual, or (revealed) keys from God; not that which imperfect which is from men,
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 6/22/2008 7:09:19 PM >
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/22/2008 11:36:06 PM
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ChristopherJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
I understand... but all that comes form God... Prophets didn't speak on their own initiative; Angels didn't speak on their own initiative; Christ didn't speak on his own initiative; The Holy Spirit doesn't speak on his own initiative; the apostles didn't speak on their own initiative; Preachers don't speak on their own initiative. It's all from God's mouth. How does that speak to whether the offices have past and whether or not the Holy Spirit still uses Prophets and Apostles (either as gifts or offices) in the Church? It doesn't... the only conclusion that I can draw is that God choses who He will speak through, but no inference on who/what He is chosing or will chose to speak through.
I really appreciate your providing scripture, because that's what I am looking for... but I am looking for scriptures that are difinitive about gifts and offices... scripture that is clear. Or at least an understanding of how a reasonable scholar could get from the scripture to the doctrine that offices and gifts are different things and that some have passed while others remain active. Surely there is a scriptural basis that doesn't take flying mental leaps and assumptions that aren't supported in the text? I'm convinced there must be or so many churches/denominations wouldn't be basing teachings on it... I just can't find it.
"And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ...
<for how long?>
till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, (not there yet)
to a perfect man, (not there yet)
to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; (not there yet)
that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting... (not there yet)
but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." (Ephesians 4:11-16).
It seems pretty clear to me from this Scripture that the gifts & offices (including apostle & prophet) are to be around until we as the church are perfected, and - in my humble opinion - I don't believe that this will be fully realized until Jesus returns and we are glorified in Heaven... so - the gifts are still for today!
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Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/22/2008 11:45:27 PM
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LBolt
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ChristopherJ, I agree wholeheartedly with this post. I'm glad you quoted Ephesians 4:11-16, I intended to use that verse. LOL
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/22/2008 11:52:43 PM
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ChristopherJ
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LBolt - thanks for your encouraging note & support... bless you!
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www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/22/2008 11:59:33 PM
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awaken
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Ephesians 4:8 says "He ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
There are 8 operations( 1 Cor. 12:6 diversities of operations..) These operations of God are listed in 1 Cor. 12:28 ...
Apostles
Prophet
Teacher
Miracles
Gifts of Healing These are given for the purpose of..perfecting the saints
Ephesian list them as(Eph. 4:11)
Apostles, Prophet, Teacher, Evangelist, Pastor...Same purpose perfection of the saints.
Helps, Governments are for the purpose of the work of the ministry.
Diversities of Tongues:.............................The purpose is edifying of the Body of Christ.
Tongues for interpretation
Tongues for intercession
Tongues as a sign to the unbeliever
Tongues for personal edification (any time)..
Eph. 4:13 says "Till we all come in the unity of the Faith"
I do not think that the church has reached maturity, or that the church has reached a point that we do not need to be built up. So the operations listed are still here until we come in the unity of the faith....
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/23/2008 8:39:46 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I wish I could easily find all of the excellent posts made (especially in the 'Church' sub-forum) that fully respond to your questions.
Let me see if I get some free time after dinner to look them up for you.
This may help:
"It has recently become popular to speak of "the five-fold ministry," a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal "Restoration" movement and its offshoot, "kingdom now" teaching, claims that one of the things which God is "restoring" to the church is this five-fold ministry. The sole prooftext used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13 , which states that Christ gave "some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,...until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God." The word "until," it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers. However, it is the "building up" of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith..." The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in "equipping the saints" was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.
Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has "been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Eph. 2:20 ) and that Christ's mystery concerning the church was "revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" (3:5 ). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century.
The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26 ; 5:32 ; Luke 1:1-4 ; 1 Cor. 9:1 ). Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8 ). The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet. 1:12-15 ; 2:1 ; 3:2 , 14-16 ; Jude 3-4 , 17 ). Peter and Jude did not say, "Listen to the apostles living today," but instead urged believers to "remember what the apostles said."
I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14 ), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6 ; cf. 1:1 ), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7 ) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6 ). However, none of these persons was chosen as a successor to an earlier apostle (Matthias was Judas's replacement, not his successor, since Judas had forsaken his apostleship, Acts 1:21-26 ).
... Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the "foundation" laid in the first-century church. This is not to deny the continuing validity of the gift of "prophecy," since Paul does refer to prophesying as a basic activity in which all Christians are urged to participate to the extent God gifts them (Rom. 12:6 ; 1 Cor. 11:4-5 ; 12:10 ; 13:2 , 8-9 ; 14:1-6 , 20-33 ; 1 Thess. 5:20 ), and in a general functional sense persons exercising this gift are even called "prophets" (1 Cor. 14:32 , 37 ). Yet Paul also speaks of specific persons who occupied an office of "prophet" which was second in authority only to apostle (1 Cor. 12:28-29 ). It is this office of "prophet," not all prophecy, which I am arguing passed away around the end of the first century.
Finally, some errors on this matter are worse than others. The loose use of the world "apostle" to refer to missionaries or church planters is not a serious error as long as this usage is sharply distinguished from the concept of an apostle who brings new doctrinal revelations and wields unquestionable authority. Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to "apostles" in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith.
On the other hand, to interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16 ) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15 ).
The teachers of the "five-fold ministry," in seeking to "restore" a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ. "
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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