Why are we like this? (Christians)

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_CANCELLED_ -> Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/18/2008 9:32:22 PM)
Gay marriage, abortion, etc... We all know what the Bible has to say about such things and most of us think we know how Jesus, himself, would handle it were he walking the earth right now. My question is--and it's a--for lack of a better phrase right now--devil's advocate question: Why do we try to make our Christian beliefs law to the extent that we turn people away from not only the Church, but God, when Jesus didn't handle it that way? Aside from when he lost his temper at the temple over the money changers, he rebuked and preached with long-suffering wisdom. I'm genuinely curious about why we handle things the way we do. If there's specific Scripture that explains it, please feel free to preach to me. I love a good sermon. [;)]

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/18/2008 9:45:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Won_by_One Gay marriage, abortion, etc... We all know what the Bible has to say about such things and most of us think we know how Jesus, himself, would handle it were he walking the earth right now. My question is--and it's a--for lack of a better phrase right now--devil's advocate question: Why do we try to make our Christian beliefs law to the extent that we turn people away from not only the Church, but God, when Jesus didn't handle it that way? Aside from when he lost his temper at the temple over the money changers, he rebuked and preached with long-suffering wisdom. I'm genuinely curious about why we handle things the way we do. If there's specific Scripture that explains it, please feel free to preach to me. I love a good sermon. [;)] Jesus lost His temper? Are you serious? As for your question.... Why should a person who believes homosexual activity is ok find sanctuary in the church? For the most part homosexuals are looking to make their perversion seem normal so the reason they seek marriage and things like church is to be accepted, not to right their wrongs... If the church allows gays, and those who murder children, why not those who rape children as well? People who believe such things or ok, normal or that God says it's ok shouldn't see the church as a place to congregate if that is what is in their hearts... The bible says to remove the brother who is a fornicator if he doesn't repent... John

_CANCELLED_ -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/18/2008 9:49:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsH Jesus lost His temper? Are you serious? As for your question.... Why should a person who believes homosexual activity is ok find sanctuary in the church? For the most part homosexuals are looking to make their perversion seem normal so the reason they seek marriage and things like church is to be accepted, not to right their wrongs... If the church allows gays, and those who murder children, why not those who rape children as well? People who believe such things or ok, normal or that God says it's ok shouldn't see the church as a place to congregate if that is what is in their hearts... The bible says to remove the brother who is a fornicator if he doesn't repent... John Yes, I'm serious. I'm speaking of when he used a scurge. I'm not saying it wasn't warranted. Of course it was. As for your answers, it appears you don't know what I'm asking. My apologies if I didn't make myself clear. I never said I condone anything. I'm just asking why we try to legislate our beliefs when Jesus didn't do that. Not saying it's right or wrong. Just trying to understand how we've evolved to what we are now--as a Church.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/18/2008 10:00:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Won_by_One Yes, I'm serious. I'm speaking of when he used a scurge. I'm not saying it wasn't warranted. Of course it was. I think the term righteous indignation is closer to the truth... quote: As for your answers, it appears you don't know what I'm asking. My apologies if I didn't make myself clear. I never said I condone anything. I never said you did....[:)] quote: I'm just asking why we try to legislate our beliefs when Jesus didn't do that. Not saying it's right or wrong. Just trying to understand how we've evolved to what we are now--as a Church. How can a Christian compartmentalize his or her beliefs? I answered your question in the manner I did because my point is that what isn't acceptable in church should be acceptable in any part of the life of a Christian... Can't be against abortion, gays and or whatever on Sunday and be for it on the other days, and vote for it on Tuesday... That is servering two masters and God is a jealous God... John

_CANCELLED_ -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/18/2008 10:05:14 PM)
quote: How can a Christian compartmentalize his or her beliefs? I answered your question in the manner I did because my point is that what isn't acceptable in church should be acceptable in any part of the life of a Christian... Can't be against abortion, gays and or whatever on Sunday and be for it on the other days, and vote for it on Tuesday... That is servering two masters and God is a jealous God... Again, it sounds as if you think I need to be set straight about condoning but that's not the case. I absolutely don't condone. And I don't worship on Sunday. I worship everyday. I'm what some call Native American--I call it First Nations--and we worship daily. I just happen to be a Christian first and foremost (meaning I don't practice old FN beliefs but I still have the blood). Okay I don't think I'm going to be understood in this question but I do appreciate you trying. Thank you. [:)]

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/18/2008 10:08:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Won_by_One quote: How can a Christian compartmentalize his or her beliefs? I answered your question in the manner I did because my point is that what isn't acceptable in church should be acceptable in any part of the life of a Christian... Can't be against abortion, gays and or whatever on Sunday and be for it on the other days, and vote for it on Tuesday... That is servering two masters and God is a jealous God... Again, it sounds as if you think I need to be set straight about condoning but that's not the case. I absolutely don't condone. And I don't worship on Sunday. I worship everyday. I'm what some call Native American--I call it First Nations--and we worship daily. I just happen to be a Christian first and foremost. Okay I don't think I'm going to be understood in this question but I do appreciate you trying. Thank you. [:)] You must be hearing things... I never said, implied, or believe you are condoning things... I even went so far as to include in my post that I don't believe you are... So now I can't help but wonder what is going on... I guess you don't wish to deal with my point... So be it... Take care... John

Peter_Gunn -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/18/2008 10:10:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Won_by_One Gay marriage, abortion, etc... We all know what the Bible has to say about such things and most of us think we know how Jesus, himself, would handle it were he walking the earth right now. My question is--and it's a--for lack of a better phrase right now--devil's advocate question: Why do we try to make our Christian beliefs law to the extent that we turn people away from not only the Church, but God, when Jesus didn't handle it that way? Aside from when he lost his temper at the temple over the money changers, he rebuked and preached with long-suffering wisdom. I'm genuinely curious about why we handle things the way we do. If there's specific Scripture that explains it, please feel free to preach to me. I love a good sermon. [;)] No, no, no...Jesus never "lost His temper". He said, "Be angry and sin not." Losing ones temper is to sin. Jesus did not sin. Therefore, He did not lose His temper. And we shouldn't be making our beliefs law...we make the law our belief. The Bible is our standard as believers. Admittedly, as much as I'd like to, we cannot hold the world to the same standards. They're lost and blind until they accept the gift of salvation. As for turning people away from the church, and therefore Christ, there are many ways that is done. Some speak the Truth, but not in love. Some churches squelch the Holy Spirit by being a clanging cymbal (see the Emergent Chruch thread for more on that) and letting bells and whistles get in the way. The Truth is pretty much hidden in those churches. Yes, Jesus preached and rebuked, with long-suffering wisdom, as you pointed out. But His message never changed to suit the culture or the people he was with. It's all about preaching the Truth of the gospel, in love, relentlessly. The law was given to God's children, not the world. After they've accepted Christ, then they have to be taught, and learn to deal with, God's standards for their lives...in other words, the law given throughout all scripture.

SonInMe1 -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/19/2008 8:23:50 AM)
Should we leave our government to secularists and satanists? The government...is us. It should reflect our moral beliefs. To exclude ourselves from politics or the government would leave in very poor hands. That...would be irresponsible.

endless_night -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/19/2008 8:31:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Won_by_One Yes, I'm serious. I'm speaking of when he used a scurge. I'm not saying it wasn't warranted. Of course it was. As for your answers, it appears you don't know what I'm asking. My apologies if I didn't make myself clear. I never said I condone anything. I'm just asking why we try to legislate our beliefs when Jesus didn't do that. Not saying it's right or wrong. Just trying to understand how we've evolved to what we are now--as a Church. If you haven't notice, those who are for gay marriage and/or abortion are legislating their beliefs. At the time of Christ (before His death on the cross) the Israelites were under the Old Testament laws, where God legislated His will for them. Therefore for those who advocate gay marriage and/or abortion can legislate their beliefs, we have every right to oppose it and while we are doing that, we should take this opportunity to teach the Gospel as we are opposing these laws.

Jet_A_Jockey -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/19/2008 5:47:16 PM)
To the OP: because everyone thinks that their take on scripture is correct. To those that truly study scripture, and attempt to be unbiased in their findings, is temperance and understanding. However those who choose to be willfully ignorant of the beliefs they dictate to others, is folly.

earthless -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/19/2008 6:07:16 PM)
I never expect or am I shocked when non-Christians do not adhere to Christian values, beliefs, etc.. I don't understand why so many Christians think otherwise.

rcjames -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/19/2008 6:59:46 PM)
Scrip0ture tell me as a Christian not to judge those who are without (non Christian), but to judge those that are within; (1Co 5:12) For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? (1Co 5:13) But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. Now here is where the rub comes in; the United States is a country controlled by the peope and for the people; so what the contry does, each of us is responsable for. If the country (US Government) spends tax money on abortion or other nefarious things; then all who paod taxes are culpable. So why do Christians want to have laws against murder (abortion) gay marriage (condoning the sin of homosesuality) etc. Because we are responsible to God for our actions; both active and passive. Thanks RC

Cloak -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/19/2008 8:46:24 PM)
First off, let's not forget that churches are houses of God and every one is supposed to be welcome in them. Sweet Jesus Himself did mix with all sorts of sinners, BUT they were Smart sinners who wanted to Change and that makes a whole Lot difference. Last year I started to go to a church which was a wonderful warm church were people would pray for me and I was active in a number of activities there. Suddenly one day, the pastor fell sick of which during the coffee break after the service 2 elderly ladies told me that he was...gay. I almost dropped the bite I was eating in shock. I could not believe my eyes! [:o] To have an ordained pastor who is Gay is something that does Not make sense to me. Leaders should be above reproach simply bc people respect them and look up to them. In addition, that church was a refuge to so many gays and lesbians and I also heard that they perform marriages for those homosexual folks. Is that possible?! Ideally, yes a church should welcome, embrace and show love to all those sinners just like Jesus did including homosexuals, prostitutes, dishonest people, fornicators; BUT they should complete their mission by opening their eyes that their lifestyle is Sinful and they need to REPENT. Hence a good church should show them: Grace + Truth and these sinners need to be folks who want to genuinely change, otherwise they would only be spending wheels and wasting gas. If that church I used to go to did that thing to those gays, I would have respected them and continued to go there and even invited many of the gay men who live in my area to that church.

rcjames -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 9:17:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak First off, let's not forget that churches are houses of God and every one is supposed to be welcome in them. You start your post with a false assumption. Everyone is not welcome in Church, there are many Scriptures that speak to throwing certain folks with certain lifestyles out of the fellowship of Church. Church by definition is a "Gathering of the Saints". Thsnks RC

Cloak -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 10:25:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak First off, let's not forget that churches are houses of God and every one is supposed to be welcome in them. You start your post with a false assumption. Everyone is not welcome in Church, there are many Scriptures that speak to throwing certain folks with certain lifestyles out of the fellowship of Church. Church by definition is a "Gathering of the Saints". Thsnks RC Jesus mixed with all sorts of sinners. Since Jesus is our representative, how could a church Not follow into His footsteps?

JimboFletch -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 10:38:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: Won_by_One Yes, I'm serious. I'm speaking of when he used a scurge. I'm not saying it wasn't warranted. Of course it was. I think the term righteous indignation is closer to the truth... Jesus is God the Son and the Bible asserts that God's anger can be kindled and provoked. I know it's PC to present Jesus as a limped-wrist, blue eyed, pale white man, but it just isn't the biblical Jesus - or God. The Bible does say that God is slow to anger, but doesn't say He is beyond anger.

JimboFletch -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 10:46:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn No, no, no...Jesus never "lost His temper". He said, "Be angry and sin not." Losing ones temper is to sin. Jesus did not sin. Therefore, He did not lose His temper. I feel that you may be splitting hairs there. Losing one's temper is just another euphemism for getting angry. One can get angry and sin or one can get angry but not sin. It's kind of like people I know that have determined that drinking any amount of alcohol is sin. Then, when confronted with Jesus making & drinking wine, they have to contrive a scenario where the Bible means something it doesn't say because to take it for it's obvious meaning is to say that Jesus sinned. So, wine becomes "grape juice" to suit a misconception.

DaveW -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 12:21:39 PM)
quote: No, no, no...Jesus never "lost His temper". He said, "Be angry and sin not." Losing ones temper is to sin. Jesus did not sin. Therefore, He did not lose His temper. Can you show me chapter and verse that defines losing temper as sinful? I want a BIBLICAL definition, not one of common usage which can vary from time to time and place to place.

rcjames -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 1:17:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak Jesus mixed with all sorts of sinners. Since Jesus is our representative, how could a church Not follow into His footsteps? Please define what you mean by "Mixed with all sorts of sinners". Thsnks RC

Peter_Gunn -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 1:27:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: No, no, no...Jesus never "lost His temper". He said, "Be angry and sin not." Losing ones temper is to sin. Jesus did not sin. Therefore, He did not lose His temper. Can you show me chapter and verse that defines losing temper as sinful? I want a BIBLICAL definition, not one of common usage which can vary from time to time and place to place. Well, of course I can't give you chapter and verse for that...you know that very well...it's simply not there. Just like there is no verse that says slavery is wrong and there is no verse that states life begins at the moment of conception (from another thread). But when I've seen people "lose their temper", they've done/said things they later regreted. And when I've lost my own temper, usually with one of my teenagers, I've said things that I later regreted and had to apologize for. That's the difference between being angry and sinning. To "lose" ones temper implies that one has lost control. Jesus never lost control of any aspect of himself. Sorry I can't answer your question.

edgibson -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 2:33:16 PM)
He did not lose His temper, He loosed His temper. If you read the account in the gospels you will see that He saw what was transpiring, then He took His time and fashioned the whip. He was very deliberate in His actions.

Peter_Gunn -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 3:02:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: edgibson He did not lose His temper, He loosed His temper. If you read the account in the gospels you will see that He saw what was transpiring, then He took His time and fashioned the whip. He was very deliberate in His actions. Quite well said!

Cloak -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 5:58:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: Cloak Jesus mixed with all sorts of sinners. Since Jesus is our representative, how could a church Not follow into His footsteps? Please define what you mean by "Mixed with all sorts of sinners". Thsnks RC Sweet Precious Jesus mixed with Mary Magdalene who, I believe was a prostitute; the woman at the well, who was an adulteress; and Zachaeus (sp?) who was a dishonest tax-collector and I am sure some other sinners. All these sinners realized their sins/problems and wanted to change their lifestyle and they did indeed when they repented and became followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. Likewise, if a sinner (whatever his/her sin) comes to your church wanting to attend, would you turn him/her down OR welcome and embrace him/her in the same way Jesus did, esp. if they realized their sinful state and wanted to sincerely repent? If Sweet Jesus, our role model, embraced sinners, shouldn't we follow his suit? Weren't we all sinners before we submit our life to Him?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 8:21:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: Won_by_One Yes, I'm serious. I'm speaking of when he used a scurge. I'm not saying it wasn't warranted. Of course it was. I think the term righteous indignation is closer to the truth... Jesus is God the Son and the Bible asserts that God's anger can be kindled and provoked. I know it's PC to present Jesus as a limped-wrist, blue eyed, pale white man, but it just isn't the biblical Jesus - or God. The Bible does say that God is slow to anger, but doesn't say He is beyond anger. Nothing limped-wristed about righteous indignation... I have no issue with the wrath of God, yet the idea of losing one's temper implies more than just being angry, but as well a loss of control... As if Jesus was in a blind rage flailing whomever... I believe this is the first time I have ever been mentioned togehter with the PC tag...lol John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Why are we like this? (Christians) (6/20/2008 8:23:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: No, no, no...Jesus never "lost His temper". He said, "Be angry and sin not." Losing ones temper is to sin. Jesus did not sin. Therefore, He did not lose His temper. Can you show me chapter and verse that defines losing temper as sinful? I want a BIBLICAL definition, not one of common usage which can vary from time to time and place to place. In think you first my define what it means to "lose one's temper" John

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