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[Poll]
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Exactly what is sin?
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| willful violation of a known law of God |
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| falling short of God's perfect mark |
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| violation of God's laws, whether known or not |
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| The sin nature is always with us |
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| the sin nature can be eradicated |
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| I don't sin, but sometimes I do make "Mistakes" |
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| Other |
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Total Votes : 119
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(last vote on : 8/17/2008 10:12:31 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 10:11:04 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 949
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quote:
This makes little sense since going "against our nature" requires intent, which is not present with unintentional sinning.
That's my point - I believe sin requires intent for the Christian, which would negate unintentional sins. I also believe the "formula" James presents in 1:14-15 does not leave room for unintentional sins, though again, this is not a matter I've spent a great deal of study on.
quote:
Then I understand why you do not take "Be ye perfect as I am perfect" literally! No one will be "free from sin entirely in this life". That is not the Wesleyan/Holiness understanding of Christian perfection.
Obviously, I'm misunderstanding the teaching you are presenting. : ) Perhaps you could explain it yet again?
quote:
Singular sins generally refer to the sinful nature. Plural sins generally refer to specific acts of disobedience.
I understand. Then yes, by that definition, sins are present in our lives, but sin is not present in the life of the Christian.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 10:15:27 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Perhaps the better term for "unintentional sins" would be "sins of ignorance." All sin is willful, but not all sins are known to the one who commits them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I still do not see how someone can willfully sin if they do not know they are committing sin. Please explain this.
The will of any person is that part of the person that decides, that determines to do something, the decision. All sin is willful because it is done by a personal decision.
What I had meant by "unintentional sins" was sins committed by the person who has no idea that what s/he has done was sin; they do not know, understand, have not received the knowledge that the action was sin.
However, I decided that was a faulty term because "unintentional" may be perceived as "unwillful." "Sins of ignorance" is the better term because it does not negate the will in the sin, and it is mainly better because it is a biblical term.
Example:
I was specifically taught as a young child to lie in word, action, and demeanor under threat of punishment if I did not. It took years for me to begin to recognize my own lies and to sever a deeply-rooted relationship with lying and habit of lying. All that time, my lies were willful: they were done by my personal decision. All that time, regarding a majority of my lies, I did not recognize them as lies and therefore sins. They were still lies (sin), but they were sins of ignorance.
Not understanding that they were lies did not make them truth; they remained lies and were, therefore, sins -- sins of ignorance -- and as such, they still required both repentance and forgiveness.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 10:20:42 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 780
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
This makes little sense since going "against our nature" requires intent, which is not present with unintentional sinning.
That's my point - I believe sin requires intent for the Christian, which would negate unintentional sins.
Exactly!!!
The intent is what makes it sin or not. God looks on the heart.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 10:28:45 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3062
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Are you saying, then, that sins of ignorance are not sins?
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 11:09:59 AM
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bluestone
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If a sin is a willful violation of a KNOWN law of God, the sins of ignorance would not be sin.
I think that is the crux of the matter, the definition of sin.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 1:08:16 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 780
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Are you saying, then, that sins of ignorance are not sins?
There are no sins of ingnorance.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 1:29:58 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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To me, sin for a Christian is being disobedient to the New Testament.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 1:35:33 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 780
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Are you saying, then, that sins of ignorance are not sins?
There are no sins of ingnorance.
Well, then G-d was mistaken. 
Leviticus 4:2ff, 4:13ff, 4:22ff, 4:27ff, 5:17ff, 5:15ff, 5:27ff
Are you a Jew?
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 5:51:51 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
The intent is what makes it sin or not. God looks on the heart.
Peace
Then why are there commandments to make restitution for unintentional acts?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 6:15:40 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 780
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
The intent is what makes it sin or not. God looks on the heart.
Peace
Then why are there commandments to make restitution for unintentional acts?
I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in debating people over the law. This is simply not an issue for me as a Christian who has been freed by the grace of Jesus Christ. There is a well used thread for those who are interested, as I am sure you are aware.
Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 6:31:30 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3062
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Well, Bluethread, some months ago, I accidentally walked out of Home Depot with an item on the bottom of my shopping basket that I did not see when paying for my items. I didn't know the item was there until I was putting my things in my car.
According to this idea, I was innocent. I did not intend to take the items. I should have put them in my car and gone home.
But according to the Bible, I had to take the item back in the store, explain what I had done, and submit what they told me. Now, rightfully, they could have required 1/5 more than the price, but that would have really messed up the till in these modern days. They prefer the exact price plus the government's tithe  .
This is a problem.
If I had purposely gone home with my item without paying for it, that would have been theft. Would I know that by reading just the Apostolic Writings? No.
On the other hand, while some refuse to acknowledge the older writings, many people pick out a few things from the earlier writings and use them, while ignoring the rest. -- Like tithing and beating children.
When we ignore 2/3 of the Scriptures G-d has given us, it causes problems, some of which are not knowing what sin is, thus having unforgiven sin in our lives. Torah was given to us to teach us what sin is, but people don't bother with Torah! Although the One they call L-rd says that He did not come to abolish Torah and that not a single part of it would pass away until heaven and earth pass away, and that those who teach others to ignore them will be least in the kingdom of heaven, it is commonly done. And this warning is not Law, it is not debating Law! It is in the Apostolic Writings!
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 6:31:30 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3109
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quote:
If a sin is a willful violation of a KNOWN law of God, the sins of ignorance would not be sin. So is sin a "willful violation of a KNOWN law of God", URF?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 6:36:16 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 780
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If a sin is a willful violation of a KNOWN law of God, the sins of ignorance would not be sin. So is sin a "willful violation of a KNOWN law of God", URF?
Asked and answered, Post #: 7
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 6:52:25 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3109
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quote:
quote:
So is sin a "willful violation of a KNOWN law of God", URF?
Asked and answered, Post #: 7 Well, there are subtle but significant differences in the two statements you've made, URF. Here is your post #7:quote:
Willfully falling short of God's perfect mark.
All sin is willful. This delusional belief in accidental sin, while convenient, is right out of the pit. If you are not willfully choosing it, then it is not sin. It seems to me that one can "fall short of God's perfect mark" because one does not know that perfect mark until convicted by the Holy Spirit. Does it not seem reasonable that a "baby Christian" may have perfect intent to please God in all things, yet lacks perfect knowledge of God's Will at that point in their Christian walk. Were you fully aware of every law of God at your conversion? I certainly was not and in fact, God still brings conviction regarding new Truth He desires me to obey even at this point in my sanctified life.
There appears to be some confusion among several posting here that any sinful action must be willful. The fact is that any action (or choice NOT to act) is willful because it requires deliberate intent and volition. Defining willful sin then depends on the purpose or goal of the always intended action. If someone does not know God's law, how does one willfully purpose to disobey it?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 7:09:00 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3062
Joined: 6/8/2005
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I think we all need to start over, not rewriting the definition of sin but writing what the BIBLE says is sin. All these redefinings are obviously causing confusion.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 7:22:42 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 780
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I think we all need to start over, not rewriting the definition of sin but writing what the BIBLE says is sin. All these redefinings are obviously causing confusion.
Now that is a great idea...
Romans 14:23
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 7:35:48 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Excellent, UR!
The one who knows to do good and doesn't do it has sinned.
And you did better, to give a reference, so I will also give mine: James 4:17
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 6/26/2008 7:43:19 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 9:18:55 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 949
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
What, exactly, do you feel this verse is teaching? For example, one could say that my car does not come from faith - it came from the Honda factory. Does that make it sinful? Obviously not! So, what, in your opinion, does this verse teach?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/26/2008 10:20:10 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3062
Joined: 6/8/2005
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Here are three more:
Romans 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Romans 6:13 - Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
Psalm 19:13 - Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then will I be blameless, innocent of great transgression.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/27/2008 2:16:21 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3062
Joined: 6/8/2005
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Well, since I suggested definitions, here are a couple more --
1 John 3:4 - Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
2 Peter 3:17 - Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/27/2008 2:52:01 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1611
Joined: 3/30/2008
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My 2 cents-
I think PRIDE is the sin of the ages.
It is Satan's sin.
It is behind most if not all sin.
EX. I lie to cover up because my pride does not want you to know the truth.
I believe we can stop doing certain sins- like quit drugs and never use again, but it is thru the work of the Holy Spirit.
But we can never become sinless. Not here in this flesh.
People that tell me that have'nt sinned, I always ask have you read the Bible, do you know what sin is, if they say yes and still say they are sinless.
I show them my signature verse.
Tell them you just sinned, you lied.
I have never had a 24 hr. period wher I felt I did'nt commit a tleast one sin.
I used to get discouraged until I found the difference between repeating a sin and repenting of sin.
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RE: Exactly what is sin? - 6/27/2008 8:16:54 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 780
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
My 2 cents-
I think PRIDE is the sin of the ages.
It is Satan's sin.
It is behind most if not all sin.
EX. I lie to cover up because my pride does not want you to know the truth.
I believe we can stop doing certain sins- like quit drugs and never use again, but it is thru the work of the Holy Spirit.
But we can never become sinless. Not here in this flesh.
People that tell me that have'nt sinned, I always ask have you read the Bible, do you know what sin is, if they say yes and still say they are sinless.
I show them my signature verse.
Tell them you just sinned, you lied.
I have never had a 24 hr. period wher I felt I did'nt commit a tleast one sin.
I used to get discouraged until I found the difference between repeating a sin and repenting of sin.
I would add that how that pride works itself out in us, is in an attitude of faithless independence. The sin of the Garden was not Adam & Eve eating the fruit, it was their choosing to decide for themselves, choosing to go their own way, choosing independence from God over dependence on God. And nothing has changed, sin is still us choosing to be our own little gods.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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