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[Poll]
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Covenant Spouse/Marriage
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| The first person you marry - ever |
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| The first person you marry after accepting Christ |
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| The person you happen to be married to at the time |
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| Other |
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| Not sure |
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Total Votes : 52
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(last vote on : 11/4/2008 12:46:04 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/22/2008 11:29:37 PM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
ORIGINAL: amyk
If one person or both break a covenant, then I am not sure that covenant is still valid. If you break a contract, does that render the contract null and void?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
The only way to break a covenant that is for life is to die. If anything other than death could end a marriage covenant then it isn't a lifelong covenant by definition, but scripture says that it is.
A "broken" lifetime covenant (one that you have not adhered to) is a permanent thing, something that remains in your life until death genuinely severs it... a second marriage (whether 'valid' or not) is another covenant to a different person, not a replacement of what was broken before it. One covenant can not replace another.
For example, a mother has a baby, and has an innate covenant of care that she owes that child. Let's say she breaks that covenant by failing to care for it, and it is taken from her because of her criminal neglect. This is a "broken" covenant: the woman had a moral duty, which she did not fulfill... but it has not gone away. It remains a permanent failed covenant, even long after anything might have been done about it.
Of course, the woman is still fertile, and later conceives and bears another child. She also has an innate covenant of care with this child. Let's say she has done well in the intervening years, and so raises this child in keeping with her duty to it. This is an intact covenant... but it has nothing to do with the previously broken covenant. It is a good thing in itself, but it does not replace, heal or redeem that first failure.
So, a person in possession of a "broken" covenant still owes the behavior they have sworn to, even if the are not or can not live up to it, the obligation does not go away. A person considering an subsequent spouse has simply accepted the failure in that regard as a permanent thing. (The place of repentance here is obvious) If they make another covenant while they are in that position, that's a deep problem and a difficult teaching, but it doesn't mean that one spouse is the one with a covenant and the other lacks it.
So the terminology of the question is still at issue... every marriage relationship is a covenant, and people that make covenants are obligated before the Lord to fulfill them.
< Message edited by pbaribeault -- 6/22/2008 11:38:59 PM >
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/22/2008 11:56:44 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1147
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
So the terminology of the question is still at issue... every marriage relationship is a covenant, and people that make covenants are obligated before the Lord to fulfill them.
That's not entirely true. A person who is not qualified to make a second covenant because they are already in one cannot honor the second covenant. As a married man I cannot enter into a marriage covenant with a woman other than my wife and honor it, because it would be legalized adultery. Because I'm not eligible to marry, my covenant cannot be valid. In some areas men are making marriage covenants with men and women with women. These also should not be fulfilled because they are invalid covenants.
Scripture teaches that the initial marriage covenant is binding for as long as both parties live, and therefore subsequent covenants while that person lives are regarded as adulterous. Therefore, one cannot be required to honor a covenant promising to remain in what God calls sin.
SealedEternal
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/23/2008 12:00:51 AM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 616
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quote:
Who is the author of the institution itself? Who is Lord over all of creation? Do we get to redefine what this institution is or isn't? In many places homosexuals are changing that definition as well, but can they really do that, or are they deceiving themselves?
Genesis 2:21-24 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Matthew 19:6 "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
SealedEternal
I am not disagreeing with you, but i think there is a problem then with the cultural definition of marriage. There is a disconnect with what God has designed and what the law says.
I am not trying to redefine what the institution of marriage is but culture has therefore the government should get out of the business of marriage and go into "civil unions" for legal sake. The only person that should be able to perform a marriage is a Clergy but that's another topic for another thread.
G
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/23/2008 12:04:06 AM
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Harvie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
According to scripture it is the first, because God joins it for life:
Malachi 2:13 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. 14 "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. 16 "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." 17 You have wearied the LORD with your words Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them," or, "Where is the God of justice?"
The man is told that his first wife is still his wife by covenant even after he divorced her. This is because the marriage covenant is joined by God, who is the author of marriage, and lasts for as long as the two who made it live:
Genesis 2:21-24 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Ephesians 5:22-33 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
Romans 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Since it is for life, the first marriage is still valid for as long as the two who made it live. All subsequent covenants while the spouse lives are therefore invalid since the person making it is not eligible to marry.
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
SealedEternal
Yep. Exactly what I would have posted.
Agreed.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/23/2008 10:44:50 AM
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daughter_of_faith
Posts: 1258
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Some questions that go hand and hand with this issue are these: When does marriage begin? At the "I do" or before that if the couple has already been intimate? Does the union make the marriage or the ceremony?
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/23/2008 8:54:06 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1147
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: daughter_of_faith
Some questions that go hand and hand with this issue are these: When does marriage begin?
In scripture marriage always involves two principles; a covenant or vow must be agreed upon by both parties involved where both pledge to unconditionally love one another for as long as both shall live, and then they must come together and live as one. In Old Covenant marriages these things happened at different times, with the covenant often being made a year before the marriage, so they were called husband and wife for about a year even though they still hadn't married.
quote:
At the "I do" or before that if the couple has already been intimate?
If they have been "intimate" without first making a marriage covenant, they have committed the sin of fornication, but they are not married.
SealedEternal
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/24/2008 9:19:04 AM
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car2ner
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Without repeating what I have said in the Marriage/divorce/remarriage thread, I doubt that a marriage, first second or third, is a covenant marriage if it is a union that God would not have wanted. It was entered into sinfully.
That being said, that if both parties turn their life around, that God can create a wonderful covenant marriage.
< Message edited by car2ner -- 6/24/2008 9:25:38 AM >
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/24/2008 11:53:42 AM
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pbaribeault
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Those of you who are using the term "covenant marriage" ... please define it for me and tell me what the definition is based on. I'm only using the two words in their plain sense. Is there something I'm missing? Is it a Scriptural term or a vernacular one?
(Because a covenant is a morally binding agreement between any individuals... and people often enter into sinful covenants... I guess I'm just unclear.)
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/24/2008 2:10:23 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4259
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
It's not confusing at all if you understand that the first person someone marries is their covenant spouse who they are bound to for life as God said, and that all marriages to divorced people are illegitimate extramarital affairs because those people are already bound by covenant to someone else. When man redefined marriage, that is when the confusion came in.
SealedEternal
Aren't we just the epitome of hope and love  
so what do you do with verse 15 in this scripture:
1 Corinthians 7:12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. 13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. 16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/24/2008 2:15:00 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4259
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
Those of you who are using the term "covenant marriage" ... please define it for me and tell me what the definition is based on. I'm only using the two words in their plain sense. Is there something I'm missing? Is it a Scriptural term or a vernacular one?
(Because a covenant is a morally binding agreement between any individuals... and people often enter into sinful covenants... I guess I'm just unclear.)
the short and simple: divorce is not an option
 but I'm sure there are lovelier ways to put it.
For me, I do not believe that God is helpless when we choose a mate. I do believe He allows us to make poor choices, but then He also tells us that He can take those poor choices and use them to glorify Himself.
If God is sovereign...then He's sovereign in everything, not just the Universe stuff.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/24/2008 2:15:40 PM
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DaveW
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I voted other. Not legal here but in countries that still have multple wives, (some in the arab world, much of africa) they are ALL covenant spouses.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/24/2008 2:16:32 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I voted other. Not legal here but in countries that still have multple wives, (some in the arab world, much of africa) they are ALL covenant spouses.
WOW- I never thought about that spin on it.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/25/2008 7:51:29 AM
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car2ner
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then on the flip side, when Jesus was talking to the woman at the well, he told her that she had multiple husbands, not one husband and multiple adulterous relationships. Then, of course, the last guy she was with she didn't marry.
Just something to think about.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/26/2008 10:08:58 AM
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amyk
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quote:
I voted other. Not legal here but in countries that still have multple wives, (some in the arab world, much of africa) they are ALL covenant spouses.
Good one, Dave W. And the Bible seems to clearly say that many patriarchs had more than one wife. They don't say that only one of them was really the wife and the others were all adulterous relationships.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/26/2008 4:15:04 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
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quote:
ORIGINAL: amyk
quote:
I voted other. Not legal here but in countries that still have multple wives, (some in the arab world, much of africa) they are ALL covenant spouses.
Good one, Dave W. And the Bible seems to clearly say that many patriarchs had more than one wife. They don't say that only one of them was really the wife and the others were all adulterous relationships.
I will tread lightly here so as not to get into the divorce/remarriage issue, but here are my thoughts on polygamy and covenant marriage brought up by Dave. Does Jesus not teach us that for a man to look upon another woman is to commit adultery with her? If one looks upon another woman (besides one's wife), to marry her (and have her in an intimate fashion), is that truly a "covenant" in God's eyes, or is it adultery in God's eyes?
Personally, I do not see anywhere in the NT where Jesus or anyone else acknowledges "multiple" spouses as "covenant" spouses. In the OT, God permitted other wives, but it is pretty clear in the NT, by Jesus' Words, that even looking upon another woman is not ok with Him---He says it is adultery.
Many would agree in the U.S where polygamy is against the law, the second wife would not be a covenant wife because the marriage is not valid here. Yet, in other countries where polygamy is lawful, the same persons would say THOSE second/third/fourth, etc spouses ARE covenant spouses. In the cases in the U.S as well as other countries, vows/agreements were made---no difference. The difference lies in what is accepted/rejected culturally. How do we determine who is and who is not a"covenant" spouse---with all the benefits/obligations thereof?
Some may believe a culture or ethnic group's practices define what is truly a covenant or not, but we cannot go by such. We have to go by what is acceptable to God, not what is being practiced by man, no?
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What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/26/2008 9:08:01 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
It's not confusing at all if you understand that the first person someone marries is their covenant spouse who they are bound to for life as God said, and that all marriages to divorced people are illegitimate extramarital affairs because those people are already bound by covenant to someone else. When man redefined marriage, that is when the confusion came in.
SealedEternal
Aren't we just the epitome of hope and love
so what do you do with verse 15 in this scripture:
1 Corinthians 7:12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. 13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. 16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
It says exactly what I said, that if divorce occurs the Christian should remain unmarried or else reconcile with their covenant spouse, and that if they refuse to dwell with us we may allow them to leave for the sake of peace.
SealedEternal
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/26/2008 10:47:46 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
[Personally, I do not see anywhere in the NT where Jesus or anyone else acknowledges "multiple" spouses as "covenant" spouses. In the OT, God permitted other wives, but it is pretty clear in the NT, by Jesus' Words, that even looking upon another woman is not ok with Him---He says it is adultery.
Hi Cindy.
I was going to ask you a question here, but I can't do that without getting into remarriage and divorce, so if I think about it, I'll ask it when I get to that thread.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/26/2008 11:28:11 PM
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lastblast
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DD,
PM me with the question. I am not permitted to post in the MDR threads. Thanks.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/27/2008 7:52:12 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lastblast
Does Jesus not teach us that for a man to look upon another woman is to commit adultery with her? If one looks upon another woman (besides one's wife), to marry her (and have her in an intimate fashion), is that truly a "covenant" in God's eyes, or is it adultery in God's eyes? Take a look at the greek for "woman."
Strongs G1135 γυνή gunē
Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.
Note that this word translated "woman" means she is married - a wife already.
Of course it is adultery to want to be with a married (not to you) woman. Marrying another single woman does not fit this case.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/27/2008 12:08:22 PM
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lastblast
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Take a look at the greek for "woman."
Strongs G1135 γυνή gunē
Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.
Note that this word translated "woman" means she is married - a wife already.
Of course it is adultery to want to be with a married (not to you) woman. Marrying another single woman does not fit this case.
I did take a look at the Greek form and the truth is that Gune (Strong's #1135) is used for EVERY case for "woman" with the exception of 2 verses...........and the use of "woman" in the majority of NT verses is NOT speaking of married women, but of a woman in general. So, unless you are trying to insist that polygamy is approved by Jesus, then I will have to stand on what I believe Jesus meant when He stated: that the TWO (not 3, 4, 5, 6) shall be ONE flesh.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/27/2008 12:43:45 PM
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DaveW
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And how many single adult women (as opposed to little girls) were there in that society? Only widows and momzers (of illegetimate birth who were only allowed to marry other momzers) and divorcees. The vast majority were married.
BTW, a married man having sex with a single woman was not considered adultery in that society. A single man having sex with a married woman was. In order for it to be what we term adultery in english the woman had to be married to someone else.
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/27/2008 12:59:38 PM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
It's not confusing at all if you understand that the first person someone marries is their covenant spouse who they are bound to for life as God said, and that all marriages to divorced people are illegitimate extramarital affairs because those people are already bound by covenant to someone else. When man redefined marriage, that is when the confusion came in.
SealedEternal
Aren't we just the epitome of hope and love
so what do you do with verse 15 in this scripture:
1 Corinthians 7:12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. 13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. 16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
It says exactly what I said, that if divorce occurs the Christian should remain unmarried or else reconcile with their covenant spouse, and that if they refuse to dwell with us we may allow them to leave for the sake of peace.
SealedEternal
so if unbelieving spouse leaves and divorces believing spouse, then believing spouse must forever remain single because why? seems that the whole "not be enslaved" would free them from that.
and if both spouses are unbelieving, then I guess problem solved
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/27/2008 8:19:21 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
so if unbelieving spouse leaves and divorces believing spouse, then believing spouse must forever remain single because why? seems that the whole "not be enslaved" would free them from that.
All the text says is that they are not enslaved to live with the unbeliever who refuses to dwell with them, but Paul and Jesus both say that the marriage covenant is for life and cannot be dissolved except by death. They must remain single because they made a commitment to this person for life, and are responsible for that commitment regardless of the actions of the other person. That's what an unconditional lifelong commitment (covenant) is. There is no sin or anything my wife could do to make me not honor my commitment (covenant) to her because it is unconditional and I will be held accountable for my end of it regardless. Otherwise it isn't unconditional and simply becomes a waiting game for the other person to make the first move and, then to claim it's his/her fault and I'm free from my covenant and innocent of all wrongdoing.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/27/2008 11:23:32 PM
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lastblast
Posts: 1603
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
And how many single adult women (as opposed to little girls) were there in that society? Only widows and momzers (of illegetimate birth who were only allowed to marry other momzers) and divorcees. The vast majority were married.
BTW, a married man having sex with a single woman was not considered adultery in that society. A single man having sex with a married woman was. In order for it to be what we term adultery in english the woman had to be married to someone else.
Again, it does not matter what was/is considered "adultery" in a society. Jesus was pretty clear about what was adultery to HIM and He didn't seem to agree with what society was practicing.
When Jesus said that God joins TWO into ONE flesh, it does not appear that He was recognizing as lawful/valid other persons entering into an original marriage relationship.
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Blessings as you seek Him, Cindy
What does the bible say on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage?
www.marriagedivorce.com
www.cadz.net/faq.html
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RE: Covenant Spouse/Marriage - 6/28/2008 8:47:25 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 828
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
According to scripture it is the first, because God joins it for life:
Malachi 2:13 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. 14 "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has be | | |
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