:: We will do greater things? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> The Church



Message

earthless -> :: We will do greater things? (6/21/2008 2:18:11 PM)

Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. John 14:12

Some people take this passage to mean greater manifestations of the power of God would take place after Jesus' ministry.

Given almost 2,000 years of Christian history, such a perspective is hard to justify. Jesus raised the dead, walked on water, created food for thousands, healed lepers and the crippled, opened the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf - and, as God in the flesh, resurrected himself from the dead! (John 2:19-22).

The point of the passage, when Jesus said his followers would do "greater things" (John 14:11-14) is best understood by the immediate context that precedes these verses and those that immediately follow.

Firstly, the context that immediately follows this passage. In verses 15-18 of John 14 we see that in speaking of "greater things" Jesus was speaking of a spiritual dimension, a reality that, at the time of his earthly ministry, was not yet made available to all humanity. In talking about "greater things," Jesus was talking about the significance and meaning of not only what he had not yet done in his earthly ministry - his crucifixion and resurrection - but also the coming of another counselor - God the Holy Spirit.

So Jesus is saying, in terms of "greater things" that the work of God the Holy Spirit would begin. Just as Jesus had come to be with us and among us, in the flesh, God the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, another counselor, lives in us, spiritually.

Secondly, it is also helpful to consider the context that precedes the verses in which Jesus promises "greater things." In the initial verses of John 14 Jesus reassures his disciples, using metaphorical language, that he is going to prepare a place for them in his Father's house. Jesus told them he knew the way to his Father's house. One of his disciples, Thomas, apparently didn't grasp the deeper meaning of Jesus' words, and like many today, attempt to apply literal meaning to symbolic, metaphorical language inspired by God.

Thomas said that the disciples didn't know the way to the Father's house, and therefore they would have no idea how to join Jesus there. Jesus responded with the well known passage, "I am the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6). Using the verb "to be", identifying himself as the great I AM of the Bible, Jesus made it clear that he was God in the flesh, and that we don't need to find the way to the Father's house if we know Jesus - Jesus doesn't just give us directions, He Himself embodies the "way, the truth and the life." If we are in Him and He in us, then we are going the "right direction" - we are in Him and He is in us.

So, given the context - how exactly would the followers of Jesus do "greater things"? We will experience, and we will be used, by God, because of his grace, to see spiritual transformation.

Jesus' ministry was filled with physical miracles, but physical miracles are not the greatest miracles. The greatest, most wonderful miracles are spiritual healings, spiritual rescues, spiritual transformations.

By God's grace we can be used as his tools to help direct our friends and family to the Great Physician, who will give us new life, transformed life, so that, because of him, we will cross over from death to life (John 5:24).

What a tragedy that religion misleads people and has them looking for the physical, when the "greater things" of the gospel of Jesus Christ are all about the internal transformation that God will work in the lives of those who accept our Lord and Savior.



tsnody2001 -> RE: :: We will do greater things? (6/21/2008 2:57:38 PM)

Did you hear His voice? or was it an impression He put on your heart? I agree wholeheartedly with your post, but isn't one "playing with fire" when he or she says, "The LORD told me to tell you".... if, in fact, He didn't? Please know that my intention is not to nit-pick, but shouldn't we be careful with such statements?



earthless -> RE: :: We will do greater things? (6/21/2008 3:31:17 PM)

The "He asked me to remind you" is just a little playful thing about sharing information thing. My friend does it all the time and I did not mean it in a "prophetic" manner. I will edit it out. I do not want that distracting everyone from the OP.



colliefan -> RE: :: We will do greater things? (6/21/2008 5:22:09 PM)

Does He mean great in scope or in number? The reason we can do more is the HS is upon every believer. Too many look upon the scope - raising from dead - rather than a miracle of a heart change. A change from a heart of flesh to a heart of stone.



ChristopherJ -> RE: :: We will do greater things? (6/21/2008 5:38:15 PM)

One of the things that always bothers me is how - whenever someone discovers that their experience doesn't line up with the plain and simple teaching of Scripture, we try to explain it away, and say, "No, it couldn't mean what it really says." Here is an example of this. If we hold to earthless's interpretation of that passage, then Jesus was saying in essence:

"Yes, it's true that God anointed me with the Holy Spirit and power, to go around doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil (Acts 10:38), and if you believe in me, you will be able to do greater works than those that I did. However, even though it is true that through my ministry sick people were healed, depressed people were encouraged, the hopeless were given hope, those in bondage were set free, what I mean by greater works is actually that you won't be able to do any of those works, except to see a spiritual transformation in people's lives. Even though in my ministry, people were saved, delivered, and healed (that is, they were transformed in their spirit, soul and body), the greater works that you will do will be limited to only spiritual works. But trust me, that still means they are greater works."

Does any else not see the problem with this interpretation? Also, Jesus' words a little later on in John 16:7 will now make even less sense: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you." It doesn't make sense that Jesus saved, delivered and healed people, and then all of a sudden He said, "But it's better if I stop totally transforming lives now... when the Holy Spirit comes, He will only be able to help you deal with one third of the human being - your spirit... no more deliverances, no more healings."

Please note that I strongly believe with your statement, earthless, that the GREATEST MIRACLE is salvation - for a sinner to be saved, one who was lost is found, one who was on the road to hell is now on the road to Heaven. PRAISE GOD for the Cross, and Jesus' death that purchased our salvation! But I find it hard to believe that our loving, compassionate and powerful God has stopped caring about the whole man (spirit, soul and body), and longing to transform our lives today, just as He did 2,000 years ago. It makes no sense!

But then again, miracles don't make sense. They violate the senses, they defy natural laws. Perhaps that is why people in our North American context have such a hard time believing in them, I don't know?



prophet -> RE: :: We will do greater things? (6/22/2008 9:15:29 PM)

Greater is geographical. Note Jesus' ministry is confined to His region as he was human.
Thereafter His disciples brought the gospel to all over the globe.
Finaaly He did say: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



colliefan -> RE: :: We will do greater things? (6/22/2008 9:22:09 PM)

I am no Greek scholar, but from what I can understand the word "greater" corresponds to the Greek word "mega" which means more in quantity. Pentecost brought the HS power on all believers in all times. The math there will boggle the mind.



earthless -> RE: :: We will do greater things? (6/22/2008 10:18:31 PM)

Yet we have many prominent and highly influential preachers saying that if the Apostle Paul and the disciples were alive today.... they would be clamoring unto them (those living right now) for their autographs and photos.



cammo2006 -> RE: :: We will do greater things? (6/22/2008 10:36:39 PM)

I don't believe that the promise of doing greater things is gone. But neither do I believe that many of the things being performed in some churches (such as Todd Bentley's movement, Benny Hinn, etc.) is necessarily what this scripture is on about.

I think primarily it's talking about spiritual renewal, miracles too, but spiritual renewal - reaching out and building people in the faith - is a far greater miracle than the healing of sight! These bodies of ours are only temporary -- Salvation is something eternal.

Now, understand this - I am not dismissing the power of the Holy Spirit, our great and wonderful Counselor. I'm just saying that many of these churches are doing things that look rather occultic, and that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, there's a decent chance it's a duck.

Personally, I think if the Apostles were alive today they'd be horrified at much of what goes on in churches today.

Finally, I will concede that I have much to learn. I am neither a pastor, nor in any form of leadership. If I have made any error here, feel free to correct me.



prophet -> RE: :: We will do greater things? (6/22/2008 10:44:05 PM)

Hi Cammo

There are indeed a lotta quacks in churches nowadays and they aint Ducks! [;)]

While a lotta ppl express miracles by what they see, the greatest of miracles are when the human hearts, which is deceitful and headed fro God's wrath, receives the grace of God and gets conivicted by The Holy Spirit resulting in a chnaged being.

Shalom



Page: [1]



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI