Whose job is it? (Full Version)

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deliveredarling -> Whose job is it? (6/21/2008 2:49:20 PM)

I was reading another thread and I saw where someone had placed a fellow believer's entire learning process upon leadership.

I strongly disagree with this. Leadership is only partly responsible for our growth. I would give it a ratio of 90/10. 90 being our own responsibility for seeking and the other ten for the teaching.

Curious what others think about this.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/21/2008 3:34:31 PM)

One time one of my old pastors made a point of saying, "I am responsible for my own spiritual growth." When we get to heaven, God isn't gonna excuse us because we had a lazy teacher. We need to take responsibility. If you don't have a good teacher, find another one. AND studying the Bible for yourself is important, too!

However, teachers are also responsible. Scripture says they'll receive a stricter judgment.



Roberta_ -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/21/2008 3:52:57 PM)

I've heard many people complain that they aren't being "Spiritually fed." I say: If the food doesn't taste right, then don't eat it. If it's good food, open your mouth and accept it. It's up to us to grow.



colliefan -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/21/2008 4:25:48 PM)

The answer is both. It is the job of leadership to teach how to study the bible for oneself and how to feast upon its words. And then to teach them how to teach and grow into leadership so the cycle continues.



LCannon -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/21/2008 5:10:35 PM)

In the final analysis the individual is responsible to search and discern who is proclaiming the truth of God Word. 'Anybody' can proclaim 'truth', even a lie, but it's our responsibility to sift, discern and ultimately obey His Words.

Daniel 3:16-"[The three Hebrew children]answered the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace; and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”



Liveloved -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/21/2008 5:24:55 PM)

Probably a greater problem is that a teacher can't teach beyond where they are. So if you have immature teachers, that is where their teaching ends. Blind guides guide into pits. Immature teachers teach to immaturity.

We are responsible for our own spiritual growth. It is a product of our relationship. If you are attached to the vine, you will grow. It's guaranteed.

I do not rely on any teacher other than the Holy Spirit and He is ever present. I have no excuse for not being well fed and growing.[:)]



SonInMe1 -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/21/2008 6:28:49 PM)

How much do you disagree with your pastor? Doctrinally? Can you support your disagreements biblically?

Can you come in here...everyday...and defend your positions, biblically?

A teacher's responsibility, spiritually, is more than those who do not teach...no doubt. However if we rely on men, we get men's blessings.

I prefer God. His word.

I love my pastor's sermons. They are great and I agree with 95.624590 % of what he says. ( Oh yeah, ya gotta keep records too )



4IMPersuaded -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/21/2008 7:19:20 PM)

quote:

I love my pastor's sermons. They are great and I agree with 95.624590 % of what he says. ( Oh yeah, ya gotta keep records too )


LOL! I am in a unique position in my life's journey-- my pastor is a contemporary of mine (when did I get to be an "elder" in the faith???)

Teachers/Leaders are held accountable to the degree that their leadership lines up to the truth of the Word. If they lead others astray, even unknowingly, they will be held to task.

Now that I am under the leadership of a pastor that is my own age, it really hits home that I need to be in the Word and in fellowship with God on my own so that I can discern what is Truth. If you don't know the Truth, then you can't tell when you have been told a lie! That is up to each individual beleiver.



URForgiven -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/21/2008 11:50:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I was reading another thread and I saw where someone had placed a fellow believer's entire learning process upon leadership.

I strongly disagree with this. Leadership is only partly responsible for our growth. I would give it a ratio of 90/10. 90 being our own responsibility for seeking and the other ten for the teaching.

Curious what others think about this.


It is the Holy Spirits job. Our job is to let Him.

Peace



PureLight -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/22/2008 3:10:09 AM)

This is a fantastic thread for my week.

I've been out of contact with my leader for a good bit because he's always so busy. I've been chugging along in my walk and I mean, I've not been attacked heavily too much other than a general sense of being tired. But I certainly haven't been reading as much as I should or taking time to pray more because I rely on fellowship a lot.

Very easily distracted am I at 19 and I'm actually going to be having a talk with my leader about a few things in a good 6 or so hours because it's Sunday and I'm still up and this sentence is running onnnnnnn.

Thanks for making this thread, it's convicting.



colliefan -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/22/2008 3:40:21 PM)

There are two extremes here that must be avoided: the absolute controling leadership found in the Boston Movement of the Church of Christ and the just pray a simple prayer and then you are on your own.

Look at the discipling style of Jesus. He had a large group of 70 some followers, then 12 disciples, and of these 12 He had James, John, and Peter.

2 Tim 2:1 - 2 (ESV) 1You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Paul had an extensive time with the Lord in preparation for ministry.

Gal 1:14 - 18 (ESV) 14And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15But when he who had set me apart before I was born,£ and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to£ me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;£ 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.



deliveredarling -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/22/2008 5:07:19 PM)

Very good point.

The thought that went into the making of this read, was the victim mentality I have seen in the church. Those who want to blame leadership for their so-called failings, for those who want to blame Christians for not growing, for those who want to tread upon Christians for seeking the Lord and wonder why it is they are empty. Some want to blame seeking upon religiosity rather than accepting that it is a desire to be closer to the Father.

It is easier to blame others than to look at our own behaviors in our lives. We as Christians have a responsibility to seek the Father, apart from relying upon leadership, solely.

I am not saying than leadership is unnecessary. I am saying that it should not be a crutch that keeps us in infancy and when we stop growing or being fed, we turn to the Father and ask His guidance. Not blame others.

Being a Christian is action oriented. Seeking Him is an exciting journey where blame is an evil we can bring into an otherwise harmonious adventure.

Discipleship is and has been as issue for some time now. I would imagine since the beginning. We also have to remember that upon His death, He did not leave them high and dry. He left them, after training them with the Holy Spirit as their guide.

The ministry, the lessons, the learning and training did not end because the Teacher left, it began a different journey, absent of the body, fully present with the Spirit.



colliefan -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/22/2008 10:03:26 PM)

The job of a leader is to work to lose his job. That is, to create followers who can assume responsibility when the leader leaves the scene. His job is not to create an admiring throng of followers, but to create in other the same sense of mission as he. That is, to know they were born in a God-ordained time for a God-ordained purpose and to know that each must carry out his God-ordained role.



pstrdebi -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/23/2008 12:36:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

The job of a leader is to work to lose his job. That is, to create followers who can assume responsibility when the leader leaves the scene. His job is not to create an admiring throng of followers, but to create in other the same sense of mission as he. That is, to know they were born in a God-ordained time for a God-ordained purpose and to know that each must carry out his God-ordained role.


I agree with this to a point. I do not intend to ever stop preaching the Gospel... as I'm being drawn up to the Father in the clouds, I will be proclaiming His love. So, I'll never lose my "job" so to speak. Yet I understand what you are speaking of...

Discipleship... this is so important. Leadership should disciple future leaders.

It is a pastor's responsibility to lead his flock, teach his flock, love his flock and so on. It is the Christians responsibility to read the Word, feed on the Word, consume the Word, Follow the LORD (not a pastor), grow deeper and deeper in love, in the Word, in faithfulness, etc.

DD... you say 90/10. I'd change that just a little for mature Christians. For new believers... I think I'd go somewhere around 60/40 or 50/50... it's hard to say because everyone is different.

It is true, that many try to blame leadership for their lack there-of, of growth... when the ultimate responsibility for our growth belongs to us.

My husband and I are adamant about telling our members to check what we tell them with the Word. We ask them to bring their Bibles and give them every tool possible for them to go home and study for themselves.



deliveredarling -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/23/2008 8:20:31 AM)

quote:


DD... you say 90/10. I'd change that just a little for mature Christians. For new believers... I think I'd go somewhere around 60/40 or 50/50... it's hard to say because everyone is different.


You are right Pastor Debie, I didn't consider very thoughtfully the new Christians.[:)]



broken2live4him -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/24/2008 7:06:54 AM)

Discipleship is a very important thing for new believers. But not all the responsibility lies upon leadership.

Each person is responsible/accountable to God for their relationship with Him. However, churches of today need to understand they cannot leave new believers to fend for themselves. New believers need to be discipled in order to help them grow. That is what other fellow brothers and sisters are there for. We are to help each other. However as individuals we must be having our own personal prayer life with the Lord as well as daily getting into the Word.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/24/2008 10:16:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

The job of a leader is to work to lose his job. That is, to create followers who can assume responsibility when the leader leaves the scene. His job is not to create an admiring throng of followers, but to create in other the same sense of mission as he. That is, to know they were born in a God-ordained time for a God-ordained purpose and to know that each must carry out his God-ordained role.



I have noticed that as a person learns to study and think on their own, God replaces them with others...often some for the teacher and some for the person who has been well taught.

A pastor/teacher can try to "teach himself out of a job", and God will keep bringing in new people to be taught/discipled that is how a flock grows.

I don't think that everyone needs to have the same level, or even type of understanding...those that have a gift that requires teaching need one sort, those who are more service oriented need another. But all have a personal responsibility to learn and understand well enough to know what they believe and why they believe it.

but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; (1 Peter 3:15)


Tim



RJR_fan -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/26/2008 6:37:02 AM)

quote:

I've heard many people complain that they aren't being "Spiritually fed."


Jim Lafoon, a leader in my denomination, mentioned that verse in John 2 where our Lord says, "I have meat to eat that ye know not of. My meat is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to finish His work." If you're not doing God's will, you have a deep inner craving that no amount of consuming can satisfy. The false promise of "consumerism" asserts that passively absorbing something -- food, booze, entertainment, teaching -- can make us happy. Jesus is the Bread from Heaven -- and we experience Him by taking His yoke upon us, and moving out in our callings.



Bridgitt -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/26/2008 10:12:09 AM)

I have always loved to learn and fellowship with christians that are more mature than me. But I realize that I learn from them only if I am willing to listen and apply in my life what they are teaching me.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Whose job is it? (6/26/2008 12:08:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bridgitt

I have always loved to learn and fellowship with christians that are more mature than me. But I realize that I learn from them only if I am willing to listen and apply in my life what they are teaching me.


Hopefully you also enjoy fellowship with those less mature than you, that gives you the chance to share what you know as well.

Tim



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