RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked for it here it is!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 8:23:38 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3576
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
It affects millions for 400 people to have a TRILLION dollars.
How? Other than jealousy, I can't see someone having a lot of money affecting others....other than providing employment and economic stimulation.
quote:
So what is your explanation for some of the Bible verses concerning the rich?
Show me one verse that condemns having money, please. There sure were many in the bible who had money and were called blessed by God.
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Why do people think you covet if you want for the poor?
The key is, you want for the poor with someone else's money. You seem to believe poor people exist because rich people do. There is nothing to support this biblicaly economically or socially.
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I don't want or NEED any money for myself. Live real comfortable.
How can you live comfortably without any money? If money corrupts then obviously God would not bless anyone with it. If having money is a sin, how do you account for Deuteronomy 28:1-14? Malachi 3: 10?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
How does someone having money affect your life?
If anything it probably helps you.
Personally I find that the biggest thing I struggle with now that I am well off is humility.
I understand your point and it is a valid one, no doubt. However my question was...how does someone else's possession of money affect you?
quote:
Now, the question is: Does having wealth make it easier to make evil choices?
It can, hence it is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich man going to heaven scripture. However, you don't have to have money to sin. The possession of money is not a sin. What the possession of moeny does is shed light on your true heart.
quote:
There is a difference is calling someone wealthy evil and questioning whether there can be moral danger in the pursuit of extreme wealth.
Certainly there are pratfalls in accumulating wealth. It can overwhelm you. However, that is a choice...and in some respects a greater challenge. I firmly believe God raises wealthy people in His kingdom for His purpose.
quote:
There is a biblical word for this...its called covetness.
Not necessarily.
There are many that covet the rich's monies.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 9:31:19 AM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/54/biz_06rich400_The-400-Richest-Americans_land.html
The top 400 people.
The collective net worth of the nation’s wealthiest climbed $120 billion, to $1.25 trillion.
I wanna get this straight? WE think it is okay for 400 people to be worth $1.25 TRILLION dollars?
I'm talking about the rich, not some guy making 30k a year.
At what point do you go to someone and say, "Whoa!....hold it there....you need to stop being so productive. You have "enough". Just step back and allow us to confiscate most of what you've earned, because you have "too much". (At what point do we call Mr. Karl Marx in to "redistribute")
Just because those 400 people are fortunate enough to be wealthy beyond most people's imagination, does NOTHING to prevent anyone else from being blessed similarily.
is it Ok? It's perfectly fine.
Look at Bill Gates. Check out the website for the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation. Talk about "putting their money, where their mouth is", when it comes to giving BILLIONS to the poor and disadvantaged of the world.
Bill, and a handful of his friends, are credited for creating a company that currently provides 79,000 jobs to people around the world....and practically created an entire industry (which provides a livlihood for countless others).
The coolest thing about the "Forbes 400" list...is that, if you read the stories of the people......many grew up very poor. and, many are philanthropists.....
Was reading an article in a local magazine last night about Elaine Agather, Chairwoman/CEO of JPMorgan Chase Bank/Dallas region......(her father's job, by the way, was a bulldozer operator).....
She said something that made so much sense. "Too often, she says, people spend so much time worrying about their "next step" (on the career ladder, or salary level), and they don't focus on the present. Saddle your own horse, LIKE what you are doing, and do it "tremendously"....
sounds an awful like the Collosians 3:23 passage I posted earlier....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 9:34:03 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1235
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
that volunteer either doesn't have a family to provide for.....or, is doing it for "the love of it", IN ADDITION to having a job, which provides...
There is another alternative. Some people just choose to live on less. For example, suppose someone has a job paying $150k and a house that is worth $300k (assume paid for). Suppose they quit their job, sold their house and moved to a poor area of the country where they could buy a house for $30k. They put the rest of their money into investments, and lets say that between the investment income and a part time job, they live on $30k per year. The rest of their time they spend on outreach activities for their church and helping kids stay in school and succeed and work with people who have substance abuse problems. Is this idea morally good, bad or indifferent?
many people probably DO just that....
it's great if you're able to.
morally good....(though, it also means that they have some level of "wealth"......so, there's another "merit" of having some wealth.....the ability to be "independent" and "flexible" in order to use your time to help others).....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 10:48:04 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1185
Joined: 7/31/2007
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Hmm. Really it's a matter of perspective.
My husband and I support a child in Burkhina Faso and a child in India through Compassion. It costs us about 30 bucks a month each to keep them fed, clothed, cared for medically, and educated.
The point is not, however, that we're doing our part. The point is that to little Kabore in Burkhina Faso, my husband and I are horribly, obscenely, mind-blowingly, you-make-more-in-a-day-than-my-family-has-ever-seen-in-a-month kind of rich.
To my husband and I, we're just getting by, and trying to save a little for a rainy day.
To little Resmi, the house we own is a mind-boggling monstrosity and wonder of modern technology (indoor running water and refrigeration!) that would fit probably at least a dozen families.
To us, it's a modestly-sized work-in-progress not even fit for renters until we get the heating installed and the floors put in over the concrete.
So, when you start throwing fits and condemning the rich and praying to God to more or less smite them, you had better step back and realize that to MOST of the world, you're just as obscenely, unreachably rich as the people that you're condemning, and that you're heaping coals of fire on your own head there. You would be MUCH better off spending your time trying to help those less fortunate than you. Let God worry about whether or not the obscenely rich are doing their part... because in the eyes of so many, YOU are obscenely rich too.
I strongly recommend Compassion International, personally.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:05:02 AM
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tracydolls
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quote:
Show me one verse that condemns having money, please. There sure were many in the bible who had money and were called blessed by God.
So you consider people like Oprah blessed?
Here's the verses. You tell me what you think of them. I'm just putting the word rich in my esword and randomly picking them.
Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
quote:
The key is, you want for the poor with someone else's money. You seem to believe poor people exist because rich people do. There is nothing to support this biblicaly economically or socially.
I beg to differ but will wait to post on this.
quote:
How can you live comfortably without any money? If money corrupts then obviously God would not bless anyone with it. If having money is a sin, how do you account for Deuteronomy 28:1-14? Malachi 3: 10?
Malachi 3:10 is
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
He simply says bring the tithes into the storehouse, I believe He was talking to the sons of Levi, the priests that were taking the tithes?
It also says He will pour out blessings! NOT MONEY! I know I used to go to a mega-Church and just KNEW I would recieve money if I paid my 10 percent. LOL. One day I actually read all of Malachi.
Ok, next one.
Deu 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
We can stop at verse one. Can you do ALL of His commandments, and is'nt He speaking with Israel here?
Arent we as Christians suppose to pleasd for the poor? that's what I call myself doing.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:15:11 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1185
Joined: 7/31/2007
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I think there's a difference between pleading for the poor, and sitting in judgement of the rich.
One involves trying to help the poor and pointing out opportunities for others to do so also, and exhorting them to help.
The other is vindictive, it involves trying to make people feel guilty, condemning them, railing against them, and praying for God to basically smite them.
No offense, but I've been seeing you do a lot more of the latter.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:19:08 AM
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tracydolls
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quote:
I think there's a difference between pleading for the poor, and sitting in judgement of the rich.
One involves trying to help the poor and pointing out opportunities for others to do so also, and exhorting them to help.
The other is vindictive, it involves trying to make people feel guilty, condemning them, railing against them, and praying for God to basically smite them.
No offense, but I've been seeing you do a lot more of the latter.
What you see me railing against is Christian Cheerleaders that plead for the rich.
Them I cannot stand and have to ask G-d's forgiveness every time I see it.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:23:53 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 226
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quote:
I suppose they could cash in their net worth tomorrow and give it to the poor... but that would result in all those people they employ becoming poor as well as their jobs are yanked out from under them in the folding of the company. How would that be a good idea?
If these people sold their business's, their employees would still have jobs. The person who bought the company still needs workers.
quote:
Show me one verse that condemns having money, please. There sure were many in the bible who had money and were called blessed by God.
James 5
1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.
All business people should take to heart what this passage says. Notice it refers to underpayment of wages- a common occurance these days that some try to justify as just routine business. Underpayment of wages is a big reason for the disparity of wealth these days.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:24:18 AM
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HisFish
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From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
What you see me railing against is Christian Cheerleaders that plead for the rich.
What i see you doing is despising wealthy people just because they are wealthy. Class envy= covetousness.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:27:59 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
I suppose they could cash in their net worth tomorrow and give it to the poor... but that would result in all those people they employ becoming poor as well as their jobs are yanked out from under them in the folding of the company. How would that be a good idea?
If these people sold their business's, their employees would still have jobs. The person who bought the company still needs workers.
Yeah, and whoever bought the company would then be what? That's right, ......RICH.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:35:00 AM
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kernsfamily
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"Work hard and cheerfully at all you do, just as though you were working for the Lord and not merely for your masters." [Colossians 3:23]
"Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free." [Ephesians 6:7-8]
I don't know about you.....but, in whatever job you have....or whatever business you are in.....if you live by the scripture in Colossians and Ephesians here.....you've got a decent chance at doing "ok".....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:36:57 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1185
Joined: 7/31/2007
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The thing is that the verses condemning the rich are condemning the rich who are cheating people. Should you condemn cheating? Well, sure, but that's not the same thing as condemning people simply because they are rich.
I'm not sure what you mean by "cheerleaders for the rich". I suppose there's the prosperity doctrine, but most people will tell you that's heresy.
So, worry about yourself, since you're obscenely rich just by being born here in the eyes most of the planet. When you stand before God, He's going to ask what YOU did, not what you thought other people should have done.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:39:11 AM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
So, worry about yourself, since you're obscenely rich just by being born here in the eyes most of the planet. When you stand before God, He's going to ask what YOU did, not what you thought other people should have done.
I agree entirely, Zhi! Great post! 
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:39:59 AM
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freakofnature
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I am glad to see that there is an open honest debate about this matter. I personally am tired of Christians having a poorman mentality, thinking poverty=righteousness... Affraid of money... I don't believe it is biblical for Christians to be poor and desperate for their entire lives. I know many Christians who have turned down opportunity because it is too much money and they don't beleive that God would honor you for having a good paying job. Yes, I do know them.
(and no, I am not talking about the prosperity "name-it-claim-it doctrine" but just the overall angst against those with affluent means and continuing to waller in poverty because somehow that keeps us close to God.)
< Message edited by freakofnature -- 6/25/2008 11:49:11 AM >
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:42:19 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1617
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quote:
What i see you doing is despising wealthy people just because they are wealthy. Class envy= covetousness.
You guys crack me up!
Ok, will keep Tracy out of it for a while, see what GOD says about the rich.
Can anybody speak to these verses?
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Jas 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
Jas 1:10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:45:44 AM
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upNORTder
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
I suppose they could cash in their net worth tomorrow and give it to the poor... but that would result in all those people they employ becoming poor as well as their jobs are yanked out from under them in the folding of the company. How would that be a good idea?
If these people sold their business's, their employees would still have jobs. The person who bought the company still needs workers.
Yeah, and whoever bought the company would then be what? That's right, ......RICH.
The Christian who sold the company could then give away that money. The person who buys the company won't necessarily be a Christian, if not their wealth doesn't matter.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:51:38 AM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
What i see you doing is despising wealthy people just because they are wealthy. Class envy= covetousness.
You guys crack me up!
Ok, will keep Tracy out of it for a while, see what GOD says about the rich.
Can anybody speak to these verses?
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Jas 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
Jas 1:10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
These verses are speaking of the rich who turn away from the Lord and trust their riches or put their faith in their wealth. These verses speak to the rich who ignore the hungry and poor.
I find nothing in these verses that tells the rest of us to attempt to take their money from them to give to the poor.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:52:39 AM
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upNORTder
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Ecclesiastes 5:10 (New International Version)
10 Whoever loves money never has money enough;
whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:54:24 AM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
I suppose they could cash in their net worth tomorrow and give it to the poor... but that would result in all those people they employ becoming poor as well as their jobs are yanked out from under them in the folding of the company. How would that be a good idea?
If these people sold their business's, their employees would still have jobs. The person who bought the company still needs workers.
Yeah, and whoever bought the company would then be what? That's right, ......RICH.
The Christian who sold the company could then give away that money. The person who buys the company won't necessarily be a Christian, if not their wealth doesn't matter.
And how are you sure that by selling the company the Christian can then do more for the poor? Is it not possible that they could do more for the poor by keeping the company and eventually earning more money they can use to help than what they receive through the sale?
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:56:35 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
Ecclesiastes 5:10 (New International Version)
10 Whoever loves money never has money enough;
whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income.
Yes, whoever LOVES money, not whoever HAS money.
Whoever LOVES wealth, not whoever IS wealthy.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 12:16:23 PM
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Zhi
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I suppose I will answer that with a different set of verses.
Genesis 13:2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
Here's the forefather of our faith, the man that God Himself chose as the patriarch of His chosen people... and he is very rich. Obviously God does not have a problem with people being rich as just a general concept. The important part was that regardless of Abraham's riches, he obeyed when God said "go".
Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
Matthew 7:1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
You're obscenely rich in the eyes of most of the world, yet here you are judging others for the same thing. Advocate for the poor, but not by railing against those who are rich... for you too are rich, and they will find you to be a hypocrite, and will not listen.
Proverbs 3:30 Do not accuse a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm
1 John 2:11 Whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him
It worries me how much you appear to truly hate rich people.
Exodus 20:17 "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's."
Even if you want to take it away from him and give it to the poor... that's still coveting. If God wants your neighbor to sell his stuff and give it to the poor, God will deal with your neighbor and tell him so. Not you.
2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Proverbs 10:4 Laziness leads to poverty; hard work makes you rich.
Proverbs 21:20 Be sensible and store up precious treasures-- don't waste them like a fool.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 6/25/2008 12:26:00 PM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 12:16:37 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1235
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
What i see you doing is despising wealthy people just because they are wealthy. Class envy= covetousness.
You guys crack me up!
Ok, will keep Tracy out of it for a while, see what GOD says about the rich.
Gotta ask....
what do you do for a living?
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 1:10:49 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 544
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
I suppose they could cash in their net worth tomorrow and give it to the poor... but that would result in all those people they employ becoming poor as well as their jobs are yanked out from under them in the folding of the company. How would that be a good idea?
If these people sold their business's, their employees would still have jobs. The person who bought the company still needs workers.
Yeah, and whoever bought the company would then be what? That's right, ......RICH.
Not necessarily, suppose a company was worth $10,000,000 and it had 1000 employees. If the company was sold to its workers, and they each owned an equal share, nobody would be rich.
I am not arguing in favor or against such an idea, but just that it is a possibility.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 1:56:54 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1617
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Gotta ask....
what do you do for a living?
Retired? school teacher. Minneapolis Public Schools.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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