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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 8:15:34 PM
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karlie
Posts: 16924
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From: Central California
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I'm upset by the decision. I work with kids who've been raped and I personally see what they go through and how it affects them. The article says it causes the child "years of long anguish". Well, that's the understatement of the year. Some of those children never recover from what they've been through, physically and mentally.
Sorry...my tax dollars spent to keep child rapists fed, housed, and provided with better medical care then most of their victims receive is not something I'm happy about.
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You can't stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 8:19:04 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1812
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
It's not about deterrents but justice for the crime committed. There's also a bigger issue over the fact that once again the USSC overstepped their constitutional boundaries.
quote:
Jindal upset by Supreme Court ruling
“The opinion reflects a clear abuse of judicial authority, trampling the constitutional authority of states to act through the legislative process. The Court found, ‘there is a distinction between intentional first degree murder on the one hand and nonhomicide crimes against individual persons, even including child rape, on the other. The latter crimes may be devastating in their harm, as here, but in terms of moral depravity and of the injury to the person and to the public, they cannot be compared to murder in their severity and irrevocability.’
“The Supreme Court is dead wrong.
“It is fundamentally improper for the Supreme Court to base an important decision like this on its ‘independent judgment’ about a perceived ‘national consensus against capital punishment for the crime of child rape.’ The opinion reads more like an out-of-control legislative debate than a constitutional analysis.
I would just point out that this guy happens to be a Catholic and is advocating an expansion of the death penalty in a way that we haven't seen in the past 30 years. You'd think he might at least sound a little less angry at the court for steering Louisiana a little closer to Catholic values.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 8:37:08 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1888
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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Obama disagrees with high court on child rape case
CHICAGO - Democrat Barack Obama said Wednesday he disagrees with the Supreme Court's decision outlawing executions of people who rape children, a crime he said states have the right to consider for capital punishment.
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"I have said repeatedly that I think that the death penalty should be applied in very narrow circumstances for the most egregious of crimes," Obama said at a news conference. "I think that the rape of a small child, 6 or 8 years old, is a heinous crime and if a state makes a decision that under narrow, limited, well-defined circumstances the death penalty is at least potentially applicable, that that does not violate our Constitution."
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Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 8:41:27 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1888
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
It's not about deterrents but justice for the crime committed. There's also a bigger issue over the fact that once again the USSC overstepped their constitutional boundaries.
quote:
Jindal upset by Supreme Court ruling
“The opinion reflects a clear abuse of judicial authority, trampling the constitutional authority of states to act through the legislative process. The Court found, ‘there is a distinction between intentional first degree murder on the one hand and nonhomicide crimes against individual persons, even including child rape, on the other. The latter crimes may be devastating in their harm, as here, but in terms of moral depravity and of the injury to the person and to the public, they cannot be compared to murder in their severity and irrevocability.’
“The Supreme Court is dead wrong.
“It is fundamentally improper for the Supreme Court to base an important decision like this on its ‘independent judgment’ about a perceived ‘national consensus against capital punishment for the crime of child rape.’ The opinion reads more like an out-of-control legislative debate than a constitutional analysis.
I would just point out that this guy happens to be a Catholic and is advocating an expansion of the death penalty in a way that we haven't seen in the past 30 years. You'd think he might at least sound a little less angry at the court for steering Louisiana a little closer to Catholic values.
I believe that Alito, Scalia, Roberts and I'm thinking Clarence Thomas are also Catholic. Most of the Louisiana legislature who crafted this law are Catholic and most Catholics around here are for the death penalty for heinous crimes like brutally raping an 8 year old. The trial also took place in Jefferson Parish a very Catholic locale.
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Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 8:48:17 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 3065
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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What is there to say? It just makes me sickhearted, and the majority opinion made me ill.
We need to be praying.
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Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 8:57:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4391
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
If society could stomach a bit of punishment, the deterrent would have meaning.
The death penalty doesn't deter murderers, why would it make a difference in the case of child rapists?
I will have to read the decision, but I am leaning towards agreeing with the dissent. I am anti-death penalty, but this issue is better left up to the states to decide.
I stand by my statement. If the punishments were actually administered, they would be a deterrent. If you threaten your child but never deliver the spanking, they will learn to ignore you. Same principle applies here. There are basic fundamentals to human nature, and it starts with a child.
I think those are two very different things and where is anyone suggesting that criminals receive no punishment. If you think life in prison is easy or fun, like Stephanos suggests, then you should visit one or talk to people that have been in one. I still stand by my statement that the death penalty is not a good deterrent. Here is some links to research
The punishment doesn't have to be a deterrent to have merit... The thief on the cross was justly put to death for his deeds... If that detered another from following in his footsteps that's great, but if it didn't or doesn't it didn't change the fact he justly received his due reward...
The view that the death penalty is not a good deterrent means nothing... A just punishment doesn't need to be a deterrent to be just...
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 9:06:15 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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A man raped two of my children (both under the age of 10), his brother and tried with my other two children.... He received 1 year in county jail and 6 years probation(Even though the folks in the prison system rated him a Class A predator during a 45 day eval)... Only because he didn't bother to re-register is he now serving about 13 years in prison...
Don't talk to a person about what it's like in regards to life in prison, ask my children why their rapist was walking the streets within a year of him raping them...
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 9:08:01 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 552
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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There should absolutely be the death penalty for this vile crime. It seems to me that this kind of sin is different from any other. I have never in my life heard a testimony of salvation by a former rapist or former pedophile.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 9:18:08 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 552
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
A man raped two of my children (both under the age of 10), his brother and tried with my other two children.... He received 1 year in county jail and 6 years probation(Even though the folks in the prison system rated him a Class A predator during a 45 day eval)... Only because he didn't bother to re-register is he now serving about 13 years in prison...
Don't talk to a person about what it's like in regards to life in prison, ask my children why their rapist was walking the streets within a year of him raping them...
John
As a father of four your story breaks my my heart john, i can only pray that the Lord does a mighty work for you children, and i can only wish Gods wrath on the one responsible for the crime done to them.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 9:32:08 PM
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PhunkD
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Precedent is very clear. It's amazing that there were four dissenters (and even more surprising is the the four dissenters call themselves "strict constructionists!") There has never been a death penalty for rape.
Practically, this decision also makes sense. Sadly, most of those who rape children are related to them. This makes it hard for the victims to come forward. They are less likely to come forward if they think that their testomony may result in the death of a family member--even one that raped them.
Finally, testimony from children, especially abused children, is hardly reliable. As much as you hate feeding guilty people (something God does all the time), I would feel far having my tax dollars putting an innocent person to death!
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 9:46:08 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Practically, this decision also makes sense. Sadly, most of those who rape children are related to them. This makes it hard for the victims to come forward. They are less likely to come forward if they think that their testomony may result in the death of a family member--even one that raped them.
That is your opinion. It is statistically proven however that a child rapist let go out into the public again is likely to re-offend.
quote:
Finally, testimony from children, especially abused children, is hardly reliable. As much as you hate feeding guilty people (something God does all the time), I would feel far having my tax dollars putting an innocent person to death!
Well, we'll see how you feel if it ever happens to your children I suppose. We'll see if you "believe" them or if you believe the monster accused of their rape instead. For the sake of the child I hope it is the former and not the latter.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 10:07:18 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1888
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Precedent is very clear. It's amazing that there were four dissenters (and even more surprising is the the four dissenters call themselves "strict constructionists!") There has never been a death penalty for rape.
Practically, this decision also makes sense. Sadly, most of those who rape children are related to them. This makes it hard for the victims to come forward. They are less likely to come forward if they think that their testomony may result in the death of a family member--even one that raped them.
Finally, testimony from children, especially abused children, is hardly reliable. As much as you hate feeding guilty people (something God does all the time), I would feel far having my tax dollars putting an innocent person to death!
Wrong the last execution for rape was 44 years ago and it was ruled unconstitutional in 1977.
As far as the Louisiana statute it was for aggravated rape. I posted the link to the actual case with the graphic description of the crime. It wasn't a he said/she said thing. This girl was injured so badly that she required surgery to repair the internal damage. This was the girl's STEPfather who had just married her mother the same year. Most of these kinds of cases involve stepfather or mom's boyfriends.
Here's the statute for the law where only one other person has been convicted and given the death sentence since 1995.
http://www.babcockfirm.com/statutes/aggrape.html
< Message edited by StephK -- 6/25/2008 10:13:43 PM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 10:16:45 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
Joined: 2/17/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Practically, this decision also makes sense. Sadly, most of those who rape children are related to them. This makes it hard for the victims to come forward. They are less likely to come forward if they think that their testomony may result in the death of a family member--even one that raped them.
That is your opinion. It is statistically proven however that a child rapist let go out into the public again is likely to re-offend.
quote:
Finally, testimony from children, especially abused children, is hardly reliable. As much as you hate feeding guilty people (something God does all the time), I would feel far having my tax dollars putting an innocent person to death!
Well, we'll see how you feel if it ever happens to your children I suppose. We'll see if you "believe" them or if you believe the monster accused of their rape instead. For the sake of the child I hope it is the former and not the latter.
This is my opinion, and also the opinion of those that work with abused children.
I have already made it clear to my family that whatever happens to me (or my family) I do want the death penalty. I want every attempt to be made at forgiveness and reconciliation. It is hard to be reconciled to a dead person.
It's not that I would not believe my child, its just that traumatized children are especially open to suggestion. Take the case before the court as an example--the victim changed her story, and said it is because the police wanted her to blame her step-father.
As I have already stated, I don't believe the state should be putting anybody to death, but if we do, it should be a crystal clear case--which is difficult when the only witness is a victimized child.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 10:18:55 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
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ps. Sorry about getting my history wrong. I must have heard the radio incorrectly.
But there was still a precedent.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 10:29:30 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1888
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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The bigger issue really is about the fact that the unelected 5 has once again overridden their authority and trounced on the states rights.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 10:36:37 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Practically, this decision also makes sense. Sadly, most of those who rape children are related to them. This makes it hard for the victims to come forward. They are less likely to come forward if they think that their testomony may result in the death of a family member--even one that raped them.
That is your opinion. It is statistically proven however that a child rapist let go out into the public again is likely to re-offend.
quote:
Finally, testimony from children, especially abused children, is hardly reliable. As much as you hate feeding guilty people (something God does all the time), I would feel far having my tax dollars putting an innocent person to death!
Well, we'll see how you feel if it ever happens to your children I suppose. We'll see if you "believe" them or if you believe the monster accused of their rape instead. For the sake of the child I hope it is the former and not the latter.
This is my opinion, and also the opinion of those that work with abused children.
I have already made it clear to my family that whatever happens to me (or my family) I do want the death penalty. I want every attempt to be made at forgiveness and reconciliation. It is hard to be reconciled to a dead person.
It's not that I would not believe my child, its just that traumatized children are especially open to suggestion. Take the case before the court as an example--the victim changed her story, and said it is because the police wanted her to blame her step-father.
As I have already stated, I don't believe the state should be putting anybody to death, but if we do, it should be a crystal clear case--which is difficult when the only witness is a victimized child.
Ok, well I understand where you're coming from then but as far as the remark about the children being unreliable, I think if the police or anyone else is coercing the victim to change the story it is the police who are unreliable, not the child. But rape of a child has no excuse and there are no circumstances where it is any less henious in my eyes.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 10:36:52 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
Joined: 2/17/2008
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Upholding the constitution is not overstepping their authority. It is doing their job.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 10:40:36 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
Joined: 2/17/2008
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A kid won't naturally talk about such a thing, so some coercion is almost always necessary. The police were likely doing the best they can.
I am not arguing that the crime is not horrible, I just think that the established law is best.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 10:48:37 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1888
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Upholding the constitution is not overstepping their authority. It is doing their job.
Obama, the most liberal senator even said that it was a bad decision. That ought to tell you something about the over stepping of the USSC on this issue.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 10:51:43 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1888
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
A kid won't naturally talk about such a thing, so some coercion is almost always necessary. The police were likely doing the best they can.
I am not arguing that the crime is not horrible, I just think that the established law is best.
There was physical evidence in this case. Again, the criteria is very hard to meet for this particular charge. The law has been on the books for 13 years and only 2 convictions have been given.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 11:08:22 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Upholding the constitution is not overstepping their authority. It is doing their job.
Obama, the most liberal senator even said that it was a bad decision. That ought to tell you something about the over stepping of the USSC on this issue.
Or that he is pandering in an election year. Can you imagine the ads if he were to seem soft on child rapists?
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 11:29:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4391
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
As a father of four your story breaks my my heart john, i can only pray that the Lord does a mighty work for you children, and i can only wish Gods wrath on the one responsible for the crime done to them.
For the record my children are doing ok and they didn't spend one hour in the care of a secular counselor... Lots of prayer and hugs and the fact their parents stood up for them in court for almost two years.
Btw... To add something to the pot... The person who did this was my nephew... Whom I treated like the little brother that I never had... He used that to gain access to my children... He lied to defend himself and mocked the love he was shown by many... Not an ounce of remorse... Thankfully God will not be mocked...
John
PS Thanks for the prayers...
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 11:31:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4391
Joined: 4/15/2005
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For the sake of the truth....
http://lakeconews.com/content/view/1325/742/
Hackler-Knight receives 13-year sentence
On April 27, Judge Hedstrom sentenced Jeffery Lee Hackler-Knight, age 22, to six years in prison for failing to register as a sex offender.
Det. Curran investigated the Hackler-Knight case. In doing so, Curran obtained evidence that Hackler-Knight had moved from his Middletown residence to Clearlake without notifying the authorities. The Lake County Sheriff’s Office has jurisdiction over registrants in Middletown and should have been notified by Hackler-Knight within five business days of any change of residence.
On March 9, Hackler-Knight pleaded guilty to failing to register as a sex offender in violation of Penal Code section 290. He also was required to admit a prior felony strike conviction at the time of his plea, which doubled the sentence to six years pursuant to applicable law. Committing Lewd and Lascivious Acts with a Child under the age of 14, in violation of Penal Code section 288(a), was the prior strike Hackler-Knight admitted.
Because Hackler-Knight was on felony probation for his underlying sex offenses at the time he violated the registration law, he also was found in violation of that probation and was simultaneously sentenced to state prison for his underlying sex crimes.
In total, Hackler-Knight was sentenced to 13 years and four months in prison.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 11:33:00 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4391
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
A kid won't naturally talk about such a thing, so some coercion is almost always necessary. The police were likely doing the best they can.
Wrong...
quote:
I am not arguing that the crime is not horrible, I just think that the established law is best.
The only true established law doesn't agree...That being God's law...
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/25/2008 11:45:41 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline
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You think this should be the law?
Deuteronomy 22:28-29:
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24:
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
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