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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/26/2008 10:24:41 PM
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RENEGADEPS10V15
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If you disagree with the death penalty for this type of crime how about castration. Isn't that fitting. If not to be jailed for life they should have to wear a sign around their neck that says I am a child rapist/sexual predator keep back 50 feet. Violent crimes have to be dealt with harshly because that is just. God says in His word death for the murderer is appropriate and should be the penalty for shedding innocent blood. Those against the death penalty are not scripturally sound in their reasoning because they forget the just ness/justice of God which goes along with His love and mercy(grace.
Ren.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/26/2008 10:51:11 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
Joined: 2/17/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
John?
Patience.
I don't think any amount of patience will help. He has been on for a while, but he made a claim that he couldn't back up, and now he is ignoring it.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/26/2008 11:09:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3807
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
John?
Patience.
I don't think any amount of patience will help. He has been on for a while, but he made a claim that he couldn't back up, and now he is ignoring it.
How hard did YOU look?
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/26/2008 11:10:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3807
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Btw... It was right next to verses you posted...
Deuteronomy 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/26/2008 11:28:11 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
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But if we applied the case the court considered--this girl was not engaged. The death penalty would not be applied according to Biblical law in this case. Instead, the verdict would be marriage/bride price.
So, do you still think we should go with Biblical law regarding the rape of a child?
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 8:58:34 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
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quote:
I am not arguing that the crime is not horrible, I just think that the established law is best.
The only true established law doesn't agree...That being God's law...
John
You said that God's law doesn't agree. How do you think that American law should be brought into line with God's law?
Under God's law, the death penalty is only adminstered when the victim is pledged to be married, and raped where nobody can hear a scream.
God's law limits the use of the death penalty, yet you want to expand it, and yet you maintain that God's law supports your position. How does it support you?
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 9:41:27 AM
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StephK
Posts: 1801
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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The last time I looked the US wasn't a theocracy.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 10:07:51 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1672
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The last time I looked the US wasn't a theocracy.
Exactly, and using secular reasoning, it doesn't make sense to take life for crimes that do not kill.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 10:23:06 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
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I agree--theocracy isn't the way to go, but John was advocating for it, in order to defend the US's use of the death penalty. Ironically, the way John wants the US to apply the death penalty is wider than that of the OT. I was wondering how he could justify using the death penalty even in cases that the Bible did not prescribe it.
(Part of the problem was I got the quotes in my post wrong.)
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 10:25:51 AM
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brainbuckets
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I don't understand all of you many bleeding hearts. First of all I am a victom of sexual violence. Second of all I am not a hateful person. We all know the facts so lets get to the main points. Those who molest spend a lifetime learning how to do it better, how to approach their targets better. No amount of prison time will end that drive. Other than the violence done to me the sex act was by far the most scaring and emotional. In my mind the most simple method way to prevent it from happening again is to either castrate them or render them totally useless sexually. Isn't that simple? Any man who thought about that would hesitate if he had a brain in his head. Those who are hateful and violent and do damage to any child needs simply to be dead. That kind of evil will not heal in this life. There is no hope for them in this life. Only the return of Christ can make things better. All of our bickering about what is right or wrong does not help the victom. My attacker was never punished because she was a relative and only came at me again. My brain and heart and soul hurts and there was never justice. I am 55 now, the pain runs deep and wide and has troubled me all these years. I have been able to live a somewhat normal life and have a wonderful family, but the pain inside still lurks. So all of you do-gooders just whine on because you have not a clue and I pray that you never do. Until then, if we don't have the guts to do what is merciful for all concerned and kill them, make those perverts sexually useless, that will at least prevent them from doing the same sex acts over again.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 10:46:53 AM
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StephK
Posts: 1801
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The last time I looked the US wasn't a theocracy.
Exactly, and using secular reasoning, it doesn't make sense to take life for crimes that do not kill.
According to secular "reasoning" and Justice Kennedy, the evolving standards of decency deem it cruel and unusual for putting down a predator* who victimizes children. How he could say that with the facts of this case sitting in front of him is mind boggling. The other issue at stake here is the overstepping the boundaries of states rights.
*In the court documents for the sentencing procedure there was another victim who came forward who said that he had raped her too. She wasn't as injured as the victim was so she didn't report it but she was 8 years old at the time.
quote:
New Column: Evolving Standards of Indecency
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The Supreme Court's barring of the death penalty for child rapists in Kennedy v. Louisiana underscores the hazards in the court's abandonment of moral absolutes in favor of "evolving standards of decency" and the court's unbridled arrogance in substituting its subjective judgment for the legislatively enacted will of the people.
In Kennedy, the court reversed the decision of the Louisiana Supreme Court to uphold the capital punishment of a convicted child rapist, holding that the Eighth Amendment's cruel and unusual punishment clause prohibits executing such offenders "where the crime did not result, and was not intended to result, in the victim's death."
A United States Supreme Court with a majority of Constitution-respecting justices would have evaluated the Louisiana statute in light of the originally understood meaning of the cruel and unusual punishment clause.
Instead, today's sometimes Obama-inclined liberal activist majority subordinated to the lowest rung the clause's original meaning in favor of "the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society."
And how does the majority identify that new, enlightened standard applicable to child rape cases not resulting or intended to result in death?
Simple. "The Court is guided by 'objective indicia of society's standards, as expressed in legislative enactments and state practice with respect to executions.'" And the majority, in its infinite wisdom, concluded that there exists a "national consensus against capital punishment for the crime of child rape."
The only consensus that should matter to the court is that reflected by the Louisiana legislature -- a consensus that ought not be circumvented, in any event, by the national will when it involves a matter of state law.
< Message edited by StephK -- 6/27/2008 10:53:56 AM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 11:44:48 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2287
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
I agree--theocracy isn't the way to go, but John was advocating for it, in order to defend the US's use of the death penalty. Ironically, the way John wants the US to apply the death penalty is wider than that of the OT. I was wondering how he could justify using the death penalty even in cases that the Bible did not prescribe it.
(Part of the problem was I got the quotes in my post wrong.)
I don't think child rapists (or ANY rapist) be put to death. I'm probably in the minority, but I'm used to that. :)
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 11:50:16 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 179
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I am with you, solo.
As for this repeated cry of "states rights," it is false.
The prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment is in the federal constitution.
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 7:53:19 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 539
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The last time I looked the US wasn't a theocracy.
Exactly, and using secular reasoning, it doesn't make sense to take life for crimes that do not kill.
These states would differ with you:
Crimes Punishable by the Death Penalty
Louisiana. First-degree murder; aggravated rape of victim under age 13; treason (La. R.S. 14:30, 14:42, and 14:113).
Florida. First-degree murder; felony murder; capital drug trafficking; capital sexual battery.
Montana. Capital murder with 1 of 9 aggravating circumstances (Mont. Code Ann. § 46-18-303); aggravated sexual intercourse without consent (Mont. Code Ann. § 45-5-503).
Oklahoma. First-degree murder in conjunction with a finding of at least 1 of 8 statutorily-defined aggravating circumstances; sex crimes against a child under 14 years of age.
South Carolina. Murder with 1 of 12 aggravating circumstances (§ 16-3-20(C)(a)); criminal sexual conduct with a minor with 1 of 9 aggravators (§ 16-3-655).
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=144
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 8:11:57 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3807
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The last time I looked the US wasn't a theocracy.
Exactly, and using secular reasoning, it doesn't make sense to take life for crimes that do not kill.
God is senseless?
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 8:18:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3807
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Under God's law, the death penalty is only adminstered when the victim is pledged to be married, and raped where nobody can hear a scream.
According to you...
quote:
God's law limits the use of the death penalty, yet you want to expand it, and yet you maintain that God's law supports your position. How does it support you?
Expand it what? People that rape?
He limits it to what?
. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 6/27/2008 8:25:40 PM >
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 8:21:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3807
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
I am with you, solo.
As for this repeated cry of "states rights," it is false.
The prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment is in the federal constitution.
What is cruel and unusual about putting a rapist to death?
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 8:30:42 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2200
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
I don't think child rapists (or ANY rapist) be put to death. I'm probably in the minority, but I'm used to that. :)
Ah, yes, more liberal defense of the criminal with apparently little or no regard for the victim.
But then, coming from a crowd that supports the murder of babies, why should we be surprised?
I'm curious, solo, how would YOU punish the child rapist? Invite them in for tea and crumpets?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 8:51:02 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2287
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
I don't think child rapists (or ANY rapist) be put to death. I'm probably in the minority, but I'm used to that. :)
Ah, yes, more liberal defense of the criminal with apparently little or no regard for the victim.
But then, coming from a crowd that supports the murder of babies, why should we be surprised?
I'm curious, solo, how would YOU punish the child rapist? Invite them in for tea and crumpets?
The death penalty, if at all, should be used for murderers. I'm not sure what penalty I'd use, but death isn't one. Maybe being locked away for life or something to do the equivalent. I don't support the murder of babies; it's not murder when there is no person. You can think it's murder and try to guilt people all you want; it doesn't work when you and the other person are not agreeing that biology=personhood. Like I said you get mad because people disagree with you, when you don't know what God thinks on the matter. You're trying to criticize and attack because I disagree with you, but it's not going to phase the other person when the other person is sure you are wrong (and I DO think you are wrong by God's standars on the matter 100%). I'm pro-life. I do not believe the same as you do about personhood. You call that being pro-choice because we disagree. I don't support murder in the least. However, your picking should be reserved for the abortion thread. It's against TOS to drag that in when there is already a thread for it. This thread is about punishment for child rapists, not abortion. Just because it bothers you that I believe differently doesn't mean that every thread we're both in has to come to such things. Goodness.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 9:01:05 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2287
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Under God's law, the death penalty is only adminstered when the victim is pledged to be married, and raped where nobody can hear a scream.
According to you...
quote:
God's law limits the use of the death penalty, yet you want to expand it, and yet you maintain that God's law supports your position. How does it support you?
Expand it what? People that rape?
He limits it to what?
. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
John
PhunkD meant that death penalties for rape according to Deut. involves betrothed women, using those verses you just quoted.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 9:03:51 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 539
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
I don't think child rapists (or ANY rapist) be put to death. I'm probably in the minority, but I'm used to that. :)
Ah, yes, more liberal defense of the criminal with apparently little or no regard for the victim.
But then, coming from a crowd that supports the murder of babies, why should we be surprised?
I'm curious, solo, how would YOU punish the child rapist? Invite them in for tea and crumpets?
The death penalty, if at all, should be used for murderers. I'm not sure what penalty I'd use, but death isn't one. Maybe being locked away for life or something to do the equivalent. I don't support the murder of babies; it's not murder when there is no person. You can think it's murder and try to guilt people all you want; it doesn't work when you and the other person are not agreeing that biology=personhood. Like I said you get mad because people disagree with you, when you don't know what God thinks on the matter. You're trying to criticize and attack because I disagree with you, but it's not going to phase the other person when the other person is sure you are wrong (and I DO think you are wrong by God's standars on the matter 100%). I'm pro-life. I do not believe the same as you do about personhood. You call that being pro-choice because we disagree. I don't support murder in the least. However, your picking should be reserved for the abortion thread. It's against TOS to drag that in when there is already a thread for it. This thread is about punishment for child rapists, not abortion. Just because it bothers you that I believe differently doesn't mean that every thread we're both in has to come to such things. Goodness.
Can we kill the rapist if we do not recognize his personhood?.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 9:10:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3807
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
I don't think child rapists (or ANY rapist) be put to death. I'm probably in the minority, but I'm used to that. :)
Ah, yes, more liberal defense of the criminal with apparently little or no regard for the victim.
But then, coming from a crowd that supports the murder of babies, why should we be surprised?
I'm curious, solo, how would YOU punish the child rapist? Invite them in for tea and crumpets?
The death penalty, if at all, should be used for murderers. I'm not sure what penalty I'd use, but death isn't one. Maybe being locked away for life or something to do the equivalent. I don't support the murder of babies; it's not murder when there is no person. You can think it's murder and try to guilt people all you want; it doesn't work when you and the other person are not agreeing that biology=personhood. Like I said you get mad because people disagree with you, when you don't know what God thinks on the matter. You're trying to criticize and attack because I disagree with you, but it's not going to phase the other person when the other person is sure you are wrong (and I DO think you are wrong by God's standars on the matter 100%). I'm pro-life. I do not believe the same as you do about personhood. You call that being pro-choice because we disagree. I don't support murder in the least. However, your picking should be reserved for the abortion thread. It's against TOS to drag that in when there is already a thread for it. This thread is about punishment for child rapists, not abortion. Just because it bothers you that I believe differently doesn't mean that every thread we're both in has to come to such things. Goodness.
Can we kill the rapist if we do not recognize his personhood?.
I am rolling...
John
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 9:11:04 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2287
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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He (or she) has a soul. It happens during embryologic development. :) There's actually a personhood thread in morality/ethics (if it hasn't gotten too old); it's just not at the top anymore.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: No death penalty for child rapists - 6/27/2008 9:11:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3807
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Under God's law, the death penalty is only adminstered when the victim is pledged to be married, and raped where nobody can hear a scream.
According to you...
quote:
God's law limits the use of the death penalty, yet you want to expand it, and yet you maintain that God's law supports your position. How does it support you?
Expand it what? People that rape?
He limits it to what?
. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
John
PhunkD meant that death penalties for rape according to Deut. involves betrothed women, using those verses you just quoted.
I know that... And I don't agree...
John
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