|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/28/2008 9:14:13 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3509
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
There are several Scriptures that clearly state no person can turn an unholy thing into a holy thing.
Would you mind sharing their references? I'm sure it would add immensely to the discussion.
In reading through this thread to see how we may have gone off-subject, I realized I had not answered this question. Would you prefer that I not answer your question?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/29/2008 1:11:54 AM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
Would you prefer that I not answer your question?
No, please do! I feel it would be on-topic, since the idea of turning something unholy into holy is certainly along the same lines as the question asked in the first post.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/29/2008 2:11:48 AM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
|
When you research the orgins of alot of things, places, names in our culture, you'll just give up as to what to follow. I believe the naming of days is pagan. Sunday, Monday, etc.
An idol nowadays can be almost anything!
I see doll clubs, garden clubs, gambling, etc. Anything you want to do in this culture you can do excessively. That which takes time away from the Lord is an idol to me.
Should we try to live by the Word, Yes.
Pork is just not good for you anyways.
Do I eat a little once in awhile? YES. Bacon and Ham.
I try to err on the side of caution. I should'nt be lying , murdering, coveting or even want to.
Do I do it, YES.
That's when Grace steps in. Jesus Christ!
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/29/2008 4:45:14 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1155
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
In Ha Torah, the Balaam and the gold calf incidents stand out.
Those are entirely different situations than this thread should be addressing. That is not taking something with questionable backgrounds and using them for God - it's taking something with questionable backgrounds and using them against God.
I think there probably were many who thought that they were "evangelizing" the moabites when they adopted some of their practices. Does slippery slope sound familiar?
I also think that some saw the golden calf as "redeeming" the practices they had seen in Eygpt.
Ex 32:4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt." 5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord."
Adonai brought them out of Eygpt. That they misunderstood Adonai is one is still a common misconception among some. If nothing else it is important that we not foster misconception(stumbling blocks).
quote:
URForgiven:
There is a difference between mixing or compromising, and taking something negative captive and changing it to a positive.
And isn't that exactly what God does by taking what Satan means for evil and turning it to a use that is good?
No, Adonai created everything as good and Ha Satan corrupted it, but Adonai mitigated that corruption by blessing His people. So, rather than take things in their corrupted form and restate them in what we think are Adonai's terms, it might be better to look for the orginal that Ha Satan corrupted and do what Adonai originally told us to do. In that way we can mitigate Ha Satan's corruption through the blessings Adonai has promised.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/29/2008 4:52:11 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/29/2008 12:00:51 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3509
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles' original question
...can something's origins determine whether or not a Christian should participate in/partake of it?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
There are several Scriptures that clearly state no person can turn an unholy thing into a holy thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Would you mind sharing their references? I'm sure it would add immensely to the discussion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
This thread is getting grossly off-topic (which, I will admit, I am partially responsible for). There is a one-stop thread for keeping the law or not - please take any further discussion of that topic there!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Would you prefer that I not answer your question?
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
No, please do! I feel it would be on-topic, since the idea of turning something unholy into holy is certainly along the same lines as the question asked in the first post.
Well, I still hesitate, because in order to understand the Scriptures that you will accept (those in the Apostolic Scriptures), one has to understand the Scriptures in Torah.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/29/2008 9:13:30 PM
|
|
|
9drtr
Posts: 1582
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Toronto the Good
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
in order to understand the Scriptures that you will accept (those in the Apostolic Scriptures), one has to understand the Scriptures in Torah.
That I agree with! The OT in general, and Torah in particular are vital to understanding the NT.
But I can not agree that we are still under Torah.
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/29/2008 9:38:28 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3509
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
in order to understand the Scriptures that you will accept (those in the Apostolic Scriptures), one has to understand the Scriptures in Torah.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 9drtr
That I agree with! The OT in general, and Torah in particular are vital to understanding the NT.
But I can not agree that we are still under Torah.
YES!!! Thank you. What some people don't seem to be able to understand is that we who celebrate Torah, and live Torah-observant lives, are not "under the Law." We live it for love of the L-rd but understand, and live out, that Torah never saved anyone. There is one salvation, only one, through only one Savior, and that one Savior is Messiah who live, died, and rose again for our salvation.
As it has been from the beginning of time, anyone who is under Law is under damnation. As it has been from the beginning of time, anyone without salvation through the gift of faith in Messiah is under Law and therefore under damnation. It is good to see someone who understands that simple concept.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/29/2008 10:50:24 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
What some people don't seem to be able to understand is that we who celebrate Torah, and live Torah-observant lives, are not "under the Law." We live it for love of the L-rd but understand, and live out, that Torah never saved anyone. There is one salvation, only one, through only one Savior, and that one Savior is Messiah who live, died, and rose again for our salvation.
Heh, trust me, I know you don't think observing the Law grants salvation. If that was my impression, I would be taking the subject much more seriously, because then it would literally be a dead-serious matter.
quote:
Well, I still hesitate, because in order to understand the Scriptures that you will accept (those in the Apostolic Scriptures), one has to understand the Scriptures in Torah.
I accept all Scripture - I just do not accept that all parts of the Old Testament need to be literally fulfilled for the Christian.
----
quote:
I think there probably were many who thought that they were "evangelizing" the moabites when they adopted some of their practices. Does slippery slope sound familiar?
I'd be interested in you finding Scriptural support for that. I'm pretty sure they knew perfectly well what they were doing - committing idolatry. Not because they were taking cultural, morally neutral aspects of the culture and integrating them into their own. Nuh-uh. It was because they were taking pagan practices, and using them for pagan purposes. The problem was not the origins of the practices - the problem was the pagan application the Israelite nation gave them.
They were not content with God, so they sought after gods. This is completely different from taking something with questionable origins and using it in either a morally neutral, or God-honoring way.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/30/2008 12:52:31 AM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3509
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
What some people don't seem to be able to understand is that we who celebrate Torah, and live Torah-observant lives, are not "under the Law." We live it for love of the L-rd but understand, and live out, that Torah never saved anyone. There is one salvation, only one, through only one Savior, and that one Savior is Messiah who live, died, and rose again for our salvation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Heh, trust me, I know you don't think observing the Law grants salvation. If that was my impression, I would be taking the subject much more seriously, because then it would literally be a dead-serious matter.
Okay. I just didn't want to broach this on any other level. Thank you.
So, since you asked, and I have no idea what you already know, understand, and connect regarding what I am going to write, I am going to write as though you have never even thought about this subject.
First of all, from the beginning of the Bible, the L-rd repeatedly has His prophet write about how He separated things. The land from the water, light from dark, etc., then later the godly from the ungodly, the general population through language confusion, Israel from Gentiles, the tribes within Israel, etc.
It is amazing how He demonstrated His intentions by separating, separating, separating, but He does nothing without deliberate purpose, in order to teach His people. Everything He does for population, for the eras, is with multiple purpose, because He is meticulous toward bringing forth His purpose in every generation.
So He Gave His instruction for life. Within it, he cautioned the people to separate the holy from the profane and the common and the profane things. The Tabernacle's area were separated by curtains, the dishes used there were separated from common dishes, as was the oil, the sacrifices, etc., the holy from the common and the profane. The Temple was separated by curtains and doors -- the holy from the common and the profane. The priests were separated from the people in their clothing: the common folk were not to mix wool and linen, because that was what the priests' garments were made from; the common people were not to try to reproduce the incense used in worship, etc.
Then, when people began to mix in the worship of the gods of the nations, G-d made specific rules for this, including not boiling a young goat in its mother's milk (Ex 23:19), don't round the corners of their beards, don't make other gods, etc.
Now, down to 1 Sam 15, which more specifically answers the question. Saul is told to bring nothing back from the battle, but he claims he did what the L-rd said, and the beasts are for sacrifice. He had a better idea than G-d: use the things of the wicked Amalekites to serve G-d. Then he says they really did do what the L-rd said, but the people (now) had wanted to use these things for G-d! But it won't work. Samuel says that obeying is first in G-d's sight, and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, stubbornness as iniquity and idolatry.
Does the L-rd still require sacrifice here? Yes. But as in Isaiah and the Psalms, the sacrifice must be done from a heart separate unto G-d, using those beasts that were separated unto G-d. No mixture of the holy (set apart) and the common or profane.
Because G-d's intention, from the beginning, was to bring about Messiah, He also told the people not to mingle with those of other nations who were not following Him. When a Gentile chose to be part of the community in order to serve their G-d, they were to take on Israel's ways. A “mixed multitude” left Egypt with Israel, and that was fine, as long as they followed G-d’s rules. After all, the whole idea from the beginning was that G-d would bless not only the nation of Israel but also the Gentiles – that is clear throughout the Scriptures.
The idea was not so much to keep the physical seed of Israel pure but to keep the spiritual seed pure. But the psalmist wrote that Israel mixed with the nations and learned their ways (Ps 106:35). They were to be holy, sanctified unto the L-rd. They were not to learn the ways of the wicked. Other Scriptures that may be consulted are those around and including Lev 19:19 and chapter 21 and 22:2, 32; Deut 22:11.
For what reason did the sons of Eli die? For mixing the holy with the profane. What did Ezekiel decry in Eze 22:26? That the priests had mixed the holy with the profane. Ezekiel looked forward to the time when the holy would be separated from the profane (Eze 44:23).
So, now, Ephesians 4:17 - 24 from the NASB: So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. 20 But you did not learn Christ in this way 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Don’t do as the nations do, because they do what they do out of the hardness of their hearts, doing all kinds of impure things. Instead, do those things that are learned from Messiah and drop off the things of your former life. Be renewed in those things that are of Him, living the new life in the likness of G-d, in righteousness and holiness and truth.
And 1 Cor 6:13b - 20 from the NASB: Yet the body is not for immorality, but for R225 the Lord, and the R226 Lord is for the body. 14 Now God has not only raised R227 the Lord, but will R228 also raise us up through His power. 15 Do R229 you not know that your R230 bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May R231 it never be! 16 Or do R232 you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE R233 TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one R234 spirit with Him. 18 Flee R235 immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral F63 man sins against his own body. 19 Or do R236 you not know that your R237 body is a temple F64 of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, F65 and that you R238 are not your own? 20 For you R239 have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your R240 body.
Don’t mingle with immorality, because you are now of Messiah. Don’t you understand that when you lie with a prostitute, you become one with the prostitute? But you are now joined with Messiah, and your body is His temple, so don’t mix the holy with the profane. You are not your own; you were purchased with His blood, so glorify Him with your body.
The Mixing the profane or common with the holy will not make the profane or common things holy. It is strongly taught through the Bible that it will not work to mix the two. We, as believers, are to avoid these things in worship.
I hope I have answered your question, then, Mr. Fribbles. It’s getting late.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 6/30/2008 1:00:04 AM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/30/2008 2:16:28 AM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
First, Covaan, thank you for your reply. You obviously put a great deal of thought and effort into it!
quote:
First of all, from the beginning of the Bible, the L-rd repeatedly has His prophet write about how He separated things. The land from the water, light from dark, etc., then later the godly from the ungodly, the general population through language confusion, Israel from Gentiles, the tribes within Israel, etc.
But you also see Him unifying things - man and woman, brother and brother (well, He tried, but Cain had other ideas...), man and nature (through Adam's naming of the animals), etc. Also, you'll notice that, at the end of all things, people from every tongue, tribe and nation are brought together - God is interested in unifying diversity, not continuing it.
quote:
The Mixing the profane or common with the holy will not make the profane or common things holy. It is strongly taught through the Bible that it will not work to mix the two. We, as believers, are to avoid these things in worship.
How do you square this with the teaching of Romans 14? It seems clear that some elements, which some clearly found "common and profane," were considered entirely acceptable for other believers.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/30/2008 2:49:27 AM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3509
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
Can't believe I'm still here!!  
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
First, Covaan, thank you for your reply. You obviously put a great deal of thought and effort into it!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
First of all, from the beginning of the Bible, the L-rd repeatedly has His prophet write about how He separated things. The land from the water, light from dark, etc., then later the godly from the ungodly, the general population through language confusion, Israel from Gentiles, the tribes within Israel, etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
But you also see Him unifying things - man and woman, brother and brother (well, He tried, but Cain had other ideas...), man and nature (through Adam's naming of the animals), etc. Also, you'll notice that, at the end of all things, people from every tongue, tribe and nation are brought together - God is interested in unifying diversity, not continuing it. Yes, absolutely! He brought things together. But this was His work, not human work. He can legitimately join things together. He can sanctify the unholy person. He can unify people and nations. But that is His work -- that's what He does. But we, through our own desire, cannot turn spiritually unclean things and ideas into clean ones.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
The Mixing the profane or common with the holy will not make the profane or common things holy. It is strongly taught through the Bible that it will not work to mix the two. We, as believers, are to avoid these things in worship.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
How do you square this with the teaching of Romans 14? It seems clear that some elements, which some clearly found "common and profane," were considered entirely acceptable for other believers.
Well, which part, particularly? There's a lot there.
As far as the foods he was bringing up, one would have to ask, "What is food to Paul?" In Israel, pork, buzzard, clams, shark, etc. were not even considered to be food. Some were pushing the vegetarian or near-vegetarian diet, (2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables...21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.") but Paul was saying that what G-d has said is food is food. So stop it, both of you, and be at peace!
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 6/30/2008 2:56:32 AM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/30/2008 11:54:39 AM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
Yes, absolutely! He brought things together. But this was His work, not human work. He can legitimately join things together. He can sanctify the unholy person. He can unify people and nations. But that is His work -- that's what He does. But we, through our own desire, cannot turn spiritually unclean things and ideas into clean ones.
So, if I understand you correctly, we can do the separating, but not the joining? Is this correct?
quote:
Well, which part, particularly? There's a lot there.
There is indeed! I was thinking specifically of the examples given - those who choose to celebrate certain holy days, and those who do not, and those who either indulge in, or abstain from, meat. Both "sides" probably thought the other was sinning (or else Paul wouldn't have felt the need to address the issue!), but Paul makes it clear that as long as they are doing what they are doing to honor God, and aren't directly causing others to sin, then God approves.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/30/2008 1:14:25 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3509
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
So, if I understand you correctly, we can do the separating, but not the joining? Is this correct?
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles' original question
...can something's origins determine whether or not a Christian should participate in/partake of it?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
There are several Scriptures that clearly state no person can turn an unholy thing into a holy thing.
Especially considering the original question, only G-d is able to determine whether or not something is of value to be used by His people, especially in worship. He is the only one who can separate something to Himself -- make it holy. Even in our own lives, although He tells us to sanctify ourselves, He has to begin the process, or we are futilely working for our sanctification.
_____________________________
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
I was thinking specifically of the examples given - those who choose to celebrate certain holy days, and those who do not, and those who either indulge in, or abstain from, meat. Both "sides" probably thought the other was sinning (or else Paul wouldn't have felt the need to address the issue!), but Paul makes it clear that as long as they are doing what they are doing to honor God, and aren't directly causing others to sin, then God approves.
I think that (and you know this) we have to look at the history in order to understand the letter he was writing. There was a fuss between Judaisms of the time regarding when to celebrate the holy days. The group of new believers in Messiah was made up of people from all these factions, plus Greeks and other Gentiles. They were squabbling about when everyone else was doing the holy days, because they had different understandings, and apparently, many were condemning those who did not use their days.
(I already wrote about the food issue above.)
But what I think we need to understand and grasp is that the letter he wrote was to them, specifically, dealing with their issues. It was about their specific issues: is Yom haKippurim, a non-seventh-day Sabbath (for example) on the day I was taught or on the day you were taught? Should everyone else eat only vegetables like I do, in order to be sure I do not sully myself with unacceptable meats, or should they go ahead and eat the meats they are assuming are kashrut? This was a problem with the attitude of "I fast twice a week and give tithes of everything including even the wild herbs that grow on my land, so if you don't, you are not as holy as I."
But I believe it needs to be emphasized that originally, it was his letter to specific people with specific problems in a specific era in a spicific place. So we look at the letter and apply it to today, but we have to apply it through its historic context. What is it saying to us?
It is dealing with when do we observe the holy days G-d has given us in the Bible. And should we tell people they are wrong not to be vegetarians. That's it.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/30/2008 5:43:09 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
But what I think we need to understand and grasp is that the letter he wrote was to them, specifically, dealing with their issues. It was about their specific issues
quote:
It is dealing with when do we observe the holy days G-d has given us in the Bible. And should we tell people they are wrong not to be vegetarians. That's it.
That's putting a fairly tight net around Scripture. I suppose that, since we are told to not get drunk with wine, then bourbon would be acceptable? Looking at someone in lust is forbidden, but looking at a picture or someone in lust seems to not be explicitly condemned - surely it's outside the realm of application, since Jesus was speaking to a specific group about a specific issue!
Absurd, of course. But I feel that, taken to it's conclusion, your interpretive method would open the door to interpretations such as this.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/30/2008 6:26:41 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3509
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
Well, I don't think so, if their intention is to serve G-d as He describes in the Bible. Surely, when we add to Scripture, we are not just on proverbial thin ice, but we are drowning or drowned.
But in the specific regards you have brought up, lust is a form of coveting, and coveting is specifically prohibited. (Hey, by the way, have you ever heard people say, "We covet your prayers"? Oh, we all know what they intend, but I always snicker inside and think, "You could have used another term!" I know -- I'm bad!) Also the Scriptures are very clear that lust in any form is unacceptable before G-d.
Regarding the wine you brought up, there are plenty of Scriptures that also broach the issue of drunkenness. But drinking is also one issue that people tend to play with -- either making it more stringent than Scripture intended or going the other way.
quote:
I feel that, taken to it's conclusion, your interpretive method would open the door to interpretations such as this.
In both cases, we could all be either as Pharisees toward the issues or as Epicureans. We obviously have to be wise in all these things.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/30/2008 7:44:25 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
Heh, I had a nice little reply written up, but then the internet ate it. : ( Ah well.
quote:
In both cases, we could all be either as Pharisees toward the issues or as Epicureans. We obviously have to be wise in all these things.
Careful, Epicures was a pagan - you may not want to reference him. ; ) I kid, I kid.
But seriously, I still see your negative examples as God's people taking pagan things, and using them for pagan purposes. Paganism for paganism's sake. That's like saying it would be wrong for a Christian to celebrate Easter as a festival to a fertility goddess - obviously that is the case!
But that does not rule out the possibility of pagan things being taken, removed from their pagan connotations, and used to glorify God in a way. Paul himself quoted a pagan poet to teach a truth about God, did he not?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/30/2008 10:02:02 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3509
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Heh, I had a nice little reply written up, but then the Internet ate it. : ( Ah well. Nice. That happens to me, too.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
In both cases, we could all be either as Pharisees toward the issues or as Epicureans. We obviously have to be wise in all these things.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Careful, Epicures was a pagan - you may not want to reference him. ; ) I kid, I kid. Hee-hee!
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
But seriously, I still see your negative examples as God's people taking pagan things, and using them for pagan purposes. Paganism for paganism's sake. That's like saying it would be wrong for a Christian to celebrate Easter as a festival to a fertility goddess - obviously that is the case! Some have, upon studying this, come to the conclusion that they will not practice these things. I happen to be one of those who does not practice them. But I do call the days and months of the year by their commonly-accepted English names for clarity's sake. I just don't observe those ideas their names represent, as most of us don't. I do use dimes in spite of their reference to Mercury, a god. (Boy, that dates me!) I use the term galvanize, I admit that I had a Buick Apollo at one time, etc. , but I don't have the little fishy on my back bumper, I don't think about karma, and I don't use the yin yang sign .
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
But that does not rule out the possibility of pagan things being taken, removed from their pagan connotations, and used to glorify God in a way. Paul himself quoted a pagan poet to teach a truth about God, did he not? For me, I would avoid doing this. Consider, for example, these, and please forgive me for quoting myself:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Then, when people began to mix in the worship of the gods of the nations, G-d made specific rules for this, including not boiling a young goat in its mother's milk (Ex 23:19), don't round the corners of their beards, don't make other gods, etc. It's unacceptable to mix pagan practice with worship of our holy G-d.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
The idea was not so much to keep the physical seed of Israel pure but to keep the spiritual seed pure. But the psalmist wrote that Israel mixed with the nations and learned their ways (Ps 106:35). They were to be holy, sanctified unto the L-rd. They were not to learn the ways of the wicked. Other Scriptures that may be consulted are those around and including Lev 19:19 and chapter 21 and 22:2, 32; Deut 22:11. Some of such holidays came directly from the pagans, including their colors, their decorative items, etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
For what reason did the sons of Eli die? For mixing the holy with the profane. What did Ezekiel decry in Eze 22:26? That the priests had mixed the holy with the profane. Ezekiel looked forward to the time when the holy would be separated from the profane (Eze 44:23). Not only did they die for mixing the profane into the holy, for bringing the profane into the worship of G-d, but their father also died upon hearing of his sons' death. It could have been different.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
So, now, Ephesians 4:17 - 24 from the NASB: So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, ... 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
The Mixing the profane or common with the holy will not make the profane or common things holy. It is strongly taught through the Bible that it will not work to mix the two. We, as believers, are to avoid these things in worship.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 6/30/2008 10:13:18 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
please forgive me for quoting myself
Not a problem, not a problem. Anything for clarity's sake. : )
quote:
It's unacceptable to mix pagan practice with worship of our holy G-d.
Under the Law, correct. But that's getting into that whole sticky issue again.
Perhaps that's what it mostly hinges upon? Those who believe that something's origins do not make it inherently ungodly do not adhere to the Christian following the Torah literally, while those that do lend more towards a literal Torah-keeping? Could that be it, or am I way off-base here?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 7/1/2008 12:25:19 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3509
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
It's unacceptable to mix pagan practice with worship of our holy G-d.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Under the Law, correct. But that's getting into that whole sticky issue again.
According to Torah, a person shall not mix the holy with the profane, and according to Torah, a person cannot turn the unholy into something holy. Yes, I agree. But where did this end? Where did G-d say, "Okay, now you can do it"?
I certainly do understand that some believe that there was a time for "living under the Law," followed by a time being "under grace." However, grace always was. Grace was always extended. Grace and truth came by Messiah. So we have to ask, "When did He come?" According to the Bible, He was from the beginning. John says that without Him, nothing was created. Genesis says that Moses found grace in the sight of the L-rd, and grace was throughout the first Scriptures, available to those whom G-d would accept.
I also understand that some believe that the sacrifices saved the people in the first Scriptures. But according to the Bible, there is one way of salvation, and that is through Messiah, Messiah only. That is for all time. The prophets understood this and looked forward to Him, the sacrifices were meaningless, unless they looked forward to Him, thus G-d often said, of some who sacrificed, that their sacrifices stank.
Some say that the ancient prophets and people were not saved at all but were lost in order to show us the way. The Bible, again, disagrees: the eleventh chapter of Hebrews is clear that they all walked by faith in Messiah.
But in all the Scriptures, G-d does not change His mind about what is holy and what is unholy, about grace, about the intention of the sacrifices, or about salvation. Indeed, this is what He says through Paul re the Gentiles who were coming into the faith. Some were telling them that they could not be saved because they had not fully converted to Judaism:
quote:
Acts 15:19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
In other words, "They're baby-believers, for good night! Tell them the most important things first! They go to synagogue every Sabbath -- they'll learn the rest there in time!" So they were expected to continue as was taught in the synagogue, and some of these synagogues were taught by believers in Messiah. For the others, they would learn, then I would think they would try to either help those who did not believe in Him yet or would gravitate toward those synagogues that did believe in Messiah.
Then there's this Scripture about the seder table where the wine and unleavened bread are served on Passover. The question is asked:
quote:
18 Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? 19 What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.
So, he is saying that when Israel sacrifices, and the priests and people eat that sacrifice, they share together in our L-rd. When the pagans sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and share in demons.
quote:
21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we?
And this Scripture:
quote:
Eph 4:17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. 20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 7/1/2008 12:38:10 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 7/2/2008 2:27:06 PM
|
|
|
endless_night
Posts: 74
Joined: 6/17/2008
Status: offline
|
I think when a Christian gets a tattoo, it is the intentions at why they are getting it. I don't think they are getting a tattoo to follow some pagan ritual.
And for me, I do not celebrate Christmas because it is not biblical. But I do love the Christmas season and spirit. :)
Would it be wrong for someone to get a tattoo or celebrate Christmas? I don't know. But I do know that Christmas can give Christians a really good opportunity to spread the gospel. :)
_____________________________
The Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praises endures forever.
Psalms 111:10
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Origins and Morality - 7/2/2008 7:34:04 PM
|
|
|
DougHorton
Posts: 914
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
I won't even begin to address everything that has been posted since last week, so I'll just jump in right here. 
I think it is safe to say that we all agree that God has, so to speak, drawn a circle in the sand and said that all within the circle are holy, or set apart for God.
There are those that say that this circle never changes, and that we are not allowed to add, subtract or change anything within the circle.
On the other hand, I believe that the circle was the beginning and that we are mandated to expand that circle until it includes the whole of creation. this was the first commandment given to mankind.
Genesis 1:28
God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Mankind was meant to begin in the garden and move out from there.
The blessing to Abraham was to be a blessing to all people through his family. The Jews interpreted this to mean that all people were blessed if they became Jews as the Jews defined Judaism. They got it wrong as the book of Galatians makes clear. New believers were to remain Gentiles, only now they were added to the seed of Abraham by faith, not by circumcision and the keeping of certain traditions.
We are to take that circle of sanctification and expand it, bringing an ever increasing inheritance into the circle of sanctification, a.k.a. the Kingdom of God.
People will object that we will try to sanctify that which is evil. However, we must remember that light cannot be overcome by darkness. Darkness is not a thing, but the absence of light. Wherever light goes, darkness must flee. Similarly, wherever God's holiness goes, unholiness must flee.
Now, I will address one point:
quote: | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
