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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 5:46:48 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
This is true, except for the fact that the assumption is void of the supernatural. You assume that the universe began materialistically and observationally, assuming the supernatural was not involved.
Actually, I don't know how the universe started and I assume nothing. What I do know is that filling gaps in our knowledge with deities has not worked in the past, and I see no reason to do so when it comes to our ignorance of how the universe started.
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Most Atheists (idk if this includes you) will conclude that the supernatural was not involved because there is no evidence for it, but like I said before, there can never be evidence for a supernatural event, because it supersedes our natural world.
I don't see why this is true. It would seem to me that it would be quite easy for an omnimax deity to prove to everyone that it exists and is all powerful.
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And since science attempts to explain this natural world, it will not and can not explain something outside of our observations.
What are miracles? Water to wine? Water from stone? Manna from heaven? It would seem to me that proof of the supernatural can be observational and part of the natural world, can it not?
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Ponder the following: Imagine a person who was born and raised in a white room with 1 chair and white clothes on. Put a psychologist in that room and perform and ink test. How much can that person really know? A person cannot possibly have a thought that has not been revealed to them already. That person cannot possibly think up the color blue until he has observed it. All of his dreams would consist of a chair, the colors white, black, gray, and whatever skin tone he happens to be, and other objects that are manifestations of what he has seen.
This is a poor analogy. You claim that something exists for which you have no evidence. This is analogous to the person in the white room inventing the existence of unicorns.
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Science will never be able to explain something that has not been intellectually observed by mankind.
Science does so all of the time. No one has ever observed an electron and yet they are well described by science.
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I'm speaking of human capabilities and limitations, and science will always be limited by what man has observed.
Only our amassed knowledge is a limitation, and that becomes less of a hurdle every day.
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The supernatural is something mankind can not observe, and is therefore impossible for science to explain.
So are leprechauns.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 8:14:09 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
What I do know is that filling gaps in our knowledge with deities has not worked in the past,
My country was formed upon this, and it turned out pretty good. Perhaps those "gaps" are gaps reserved only for God. So actually, it has worked.
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It would seem to me that it would be quite easy for an omnimax deity to prove to everyone that it exists and is all powerful.
And it is! Does Jesus Christ and his ministry ring any bells?
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What are miracles? Water to wine? Water from stone? Manna from heaven? It would seem to me that proof of the supernatural can be observational and part of the natural world, can it not?
Like I said before, the effects can but the cause can not. God is not science and is not limited by it either.
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You claim that something exists for which you have no evidence.
Well, could this be true? I don't mean to plead ignorance as a virtue, but you can not deny that there are aspect of this world that you can not understand. My analogy shows the finiteness of the human mind. This is something you simply must accept.
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Method:
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Science will never be able to explain something that has not been intellectually observed by mankind.
Science does so all of the time. No one has ever observed an electron and yet they are well described by science.
No it has not. They are describe by the effects, consequences, and characteristics they produce. But, we have no possible idea as to what they look like because we have not observed them.
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Only our amassed knowledge is a limitation
As opposed to what?
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and that becomes less of a hurdle every day.
There will always be hurdles which we can not jump. Again, this is something you're just going to have to accept. Humans are not ultimate beings. Only God is.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/8/2008 3:03:28 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
My country was formed upon this, and it turned out pretty good. Perhaps those "gaps" are gaps reserved only for God. So actually, it has worked.
Which country is that? In my country we do not fund scientists that fill "I don't know" with "God Did It".
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And it is! Does Jesus Christ and his ministry ring any bells?
Never met him.
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Like I said before, the effects can but the cause can not.
Then the supernatural is no different than gravity. Gravity can be studied through science, so should the supernatural (if it existed).
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Well, could this be true? I don't mean to plead ignorance as a virtue, but you can not deny that there are aspect of this world that you can not understand. My analogy shows the finiteness of the human mind. This is something you simply must accept.
There are certainly aspects that I do not currently understand. The whole point of life is to figure these things out, not give up and proclaim "God did it" and walk away.
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They are describe by the effects, consequences, and characteristics they produce. But, we have no possible idea as to what they look like because we have not observed them.
Sounds like a deity, doesn't it?
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Only our amassed knowledge is a limitation
As opposed to what?
As opposed to enforced ignorance which some creationists seem to prefer.
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There will always be hurdles which we can not jump.
I still don't see why this is true.
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Humans are not ultimate beings. Only God is.
I say Uber God is the ultimate. So there. I can make stuff up too.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/8/2008 3:18:37 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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From: North Carolina!
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quote:
My country was formed upon this
What country? Israel? Just kidding.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 1:18:16 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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Never met him.
Never asked if you did, but you should, and I know plenty of people here who would be more than willing to help you do just that. I guarantee you it will change your life - FOR THE GOOD!
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 11:09:47 AM
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Method
Posts: 1162
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
Never met him.
Never asked if you did, but you should, and I know plenty of people here who would be more than willing to help you do just that. I guarantee you it will change your life - FOR THE GOOD!
I will be going home for lunch. Have him meet me there. He should know the address.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 1:41:25 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
I will be going home for lunch. Have him meet me there. He should know the address.
If you have a Bible at home, He's waiting for you.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 2:10:17 PM
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hellohellohi
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From: North Carolina!
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ery1needsgod,
quote:
quote:
Never met him.
Never asked if you did, but you should, and I know plenty of people here who would be more than willing to help you do just that. I guarantee you it will change your life - FOR THE GOOD!
But what about when Jesus warns that following Him will ultimately lead to persecution and suffering and such? Isn't perhaps more accurate to say that our worldy LIVES may be adversely affected, but eternal life will be won?
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 2:32:23 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
But what about when Jesus warns that following Him will ultimately lead to persecution and suffering and such? Isn't perhaps more accurate to say that our worldy LIVES may be adversely affected, but eternal life will be won?
Persecution yes, but I'd hardly call that suffering. Paul counts it a blessing, and so do I. There is absolutely no suffering in the love of Jesus Christ. The only suffering I went through were in the days without Him, and I'm so grateful for the newfound love of Christ. The absence of Christ's love is suffering enough.
< Message edited by evry1needsgod -- 7/9/2008 2:50:17 PM >
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 2:52:49 PM
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evry1needsgod
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That is, from the perspective of the rebel against God, there appears nothing to be gained from following Christ but life to lose!
This is definately true until this person is shown from another life how this is not so, and my life is a perfect example of "once I was blind, but now I see."
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 3:03:31 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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From: North Carolina!
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quote:
and my life is a perfect example of "once I was blind, but now I see."
Word! ...
'Preciate the testimony! Always heartening.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 5:34:43 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
If you have a Bible at home, He's waiting for you.
I do, and Jesus wasn't there. I will eat lunch at home tomorrow. Tell him to wear bells on his shoes this time so I can track him down.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 5:55:21 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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I do, and Jesus wasn't there. I will eat lunch at home tomorrow. Tell him to wear bells on his shoes this time so I can track him down.
No, He's there, you just choose not to see Him. He won't force you to see Him. He will leave you to your ignorance if that's what you wish.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 6:00:54 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
No, He's there, you just choose not to see Him. He won't force you to see Him. He will leave you to your ignorance if that's what you wish.
For me to miss him he has to hide, be invisible, or not exist. Which is it?
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 6:33:27 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
But what about when Jesus warns that following Him will ultimately lead to persecution and suffering and such? Isn't perhaps more accurate to say that our worldy LIVES may be adversely affected, but eternal life will be won?
Persecution yes, but I'd hardly call that suffering. Paul counts it a blessing, and so do I.
Bingo. If I were to hazard a guess, this is exactly why so many of you seem jump at the chance to be the victims of imaginary oppression from imaginary conspiracies.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 7:02:32 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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For me to miss him he has to hide, be invisible, or not exist.
Or hard-hearted.
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Bingo. If I were to hazard a guess, this is exactly why so many of you seem jump at the chance to be the victims of imaginary oppression from imaginary conspiracies.
Huh? Were we playing the victim?
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 7:10:52 PM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Huh? Were we playing the victim?
See the OP. There's a few common themes in these parts; that evolution is an atheist conspiracy meant to 'rid the world of god/religion', that ID'ists are persecuted and somehow prevented from doing research, brave creationists are silenced and made martyrs by "evilutionists" etc etc.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 9:13:13 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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that evolution is an atheist conspiracy meant to 'rid the world of god/religion'
Evolution was an Atheistic science until recently when Christians began to jump on the bandwagon. So this is not entirely false.
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that ID'ists are persecuted and somehow prevented from doing research
This has been shown to be fact is parts of the world. There are threads that have been started on this subject, and this does and has happened, and you can not simply deny it.
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brave creationists are silenced and made martyrs by "evilutionists"
Their voice has NEVER been completely silenced, and no creationist I know claims so.
Btw, I love that word "evilutionists." I've never heard that one before (funny that the first time I hear that word is from an EVOLUTIONIST! Perhaps they are crying for attention that does not exist?) and I'll have to use that sometime! Thanks drj11!!!
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 9:48:40 PM
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Carico
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Evolution is indeed an atheist belief for the sole reason to deny God. If Darwin had believed the biblical account of creation, it would never have even occurred to him to form the impossible scenario of evolution. No one even went looking for evidence of his ridulous theory until 50 years after he first published it. So his theory wasn't based on evidence, but his desire to disagree with God.
And Jesus said there will be many who call him Lord who aren't true Christians and they will increase the closer we get to end times. These so-called "Christians" don't believe genesis 2:7 but have changed it to read; "For the Lord God formed man from the wombs of apes."
So it's unbelievers who believe in evolution whether they are open about their unbelief or disguised as sheep. In fact, the theory of evolution proves that Satan exists because no rational person would believe that apes can turn into people unless they were greatly deceived. So Satan is the only explanation for the theory of evolution. 
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 10:49:18 PM
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ianz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Evolution is indeed an atheist belief for the sole reason to deny God. If Darwin had believed the biblical account of creation, it would never have even occurred to him to form the impossible scenario of evolution. No one even went looking for evidence of his ridulous theory until 50 years after he first published it. So his theory wasn't based on evidence, but his desire to disagree with God.
And Jesus said there will be many who call him Lord who aren't true Christians and they will increase the closer we get to end times. These so-called "Christians" don't believe genesis 2:7 but have changed it to read; "For the Lord God formed man from the wombs of apes."
So it's unbelievers who believe in evolution whether they are open about their unbelief or disguised as sheep. In fact, the theory of evolution proves that Satan exists because no rational person would believe that apes can turn into people unless they were greatly deceived. So Satan is the only explanation for the theory of evolution.
Terms of service spring to mind, Carico:
I imagine you are breaking this one (although it's not me who is personally affected by this one):
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From 9:
If another Christian disagrees with you theologically do not immediately jump to the conclusion that they are not truly saved just because they disagree, as there are differences of opinion in translating Biblical doctrine.
You're definitely breaking these two by posting the same drivel constantly:
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11. You will not post disruptive content, such as chain letters, all caps, unnecessarily long messages, or meaningless text.
- No posting long meaningless messages in the community. (Going round in round in circles in a long post and not really saying anything would be considered meaningless text as would someone posting gibberish.) When posting in Forums try condensing your message as this will help to ensure people will read it in its entirety. Be sure to post your topic in the appropriate forum.
12. You will not attempt to "spam", "crack," "hack," or "bomb" the community. You will not attempt to access moderator-only sections or features.
-Posting the same or similar message in more than one place in the community is considered spamming and is not permitted.
Regards, Ian
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 10:51:28 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
So it's unbelievers who believe in evolution whether they are open about their unbelief or disguised as sheep. In fact, the theory of evolution proves that Satan exists because no rational person would believe that apes can turn into people unless they were greatly deceived. So Satan is the only explanation for the theory of evolution.
You and I are much alike Carico (I'm not neither an animal nor a evolutionist by ANY means), but this is something I just don't believe. I don't think that a requirement for salvation is to believe in the literal account of creation, even though it is what I believe. I think one is sadly fooled if they put their trust in evolution, but nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus require a rejection of evolution to be a Christian. Is Satan in evolution? Possibly, but he is also in sin. So does that mean when one sins, even after he has received Christ, needs salvation all over again? No, Christ saves us from those sins. If I were you I'd look at evolution as mere sin, and I'd stop condemning those who believe it. When witnessing to someone on the street, you do not need to teach them a biology class on creation before you share them the Gospel, and before they can be saved.
But, if you can show me any scripture to support that one must reject evolution to be saved, I will humbly admit I'm wrong.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 11:21:11 PM
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Method
Posts: 1162
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Evolution was an Atheistic science until recently when Christians began to jump on the bandwagon. So this is not entirely false.
You seem to forget that Darwin was a christian.
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This has been shown to be fact is parts of the world. There are threads that have been started on this subject, and this does and has happened, and you can not simply deny it.
You can't show that it happens.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 11:22:55 PM
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Method
Posts: 1162
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
For me to miss him he has to hide, be invisible, or not exist.
Or hard-hearted.
My heart has nothing to do with how my eyes work.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 11:24:26 PM
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Carico
Posts: 532
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
So it's unbelievers who believe in evolution whether they are open about their unbelief or disguised as sheep. In fact, the theory of evolution proves that Satan exists because no rational person would believe that apes can turn into people unless they were greatly deceived. So Satan is Who are you or who is any man to change the Word of God? the only explanation for the theory of evolution.
You and I are much alike Carico (I'm not neither an animal nor a evolutionist by ANY means), but this is something I just don't believe. I don't think that a requirement for salvation is to believe in the literal account of creation, even though it is what I believe. I think one is sadly fooled if they put their trust in evolution, but nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus require a rejection of evolution to be a Christian. Is Satan in evolution? Possibly, but he is also in sin. So does that mean when one sins, even after he has received Christ, needs salvation all over again? No, Christ saves us from those sins. If I were you I'd look at evolution as mere sin, and I'd stop condemning those who believe it. When witnessing to someone on the street, you do not need to teach them a biology class on creation before you share them the Gospel, and before they can be saved.
But, if you can show me any scripture to support that one must reject evolution to be saved, I will humbly admit I'm wrong.
God is very clear how he created the world, how long it took him to create the world, how He created man in Genesis. In fact, it takes delieberate effort to change genesis 2:7 into; " For the Lord God created man from the wombs of apes.".
Also, when humans die, our flesh and bones decay into dust which proves that we are composed of dust. But unfortunately, many people who call themselves Christians want to belong to the world which is run by Satan because the majority of people belong to the world, not to God. So they believe what the world says. But here's what God says about the world; "For the wisdom of the world is foolishness in God's sight." Jesus also says; "What is highly valued by the world is detestable in God's sight."
So there's absolutely no excuse to change Genesis to make it say what itching ears want it to say. If we do that, then we give ourselves permission to change the whole bible to make it say what we want it to say. Then we might as well throw it out and worship a god of our imaginations instead of knowing the God of the bible. Jesus also says; "he who is not with me is against me." So one cannot both believe God and not believe God at the same time. That's a divided house that will crumble.
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