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Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 1:03:23 AM
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SILVERNAME
Posts: 78
Joined: 2/23/2008
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'If they shut down our ability to speak, they shut down the Gospel'
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Posted: June 28, 2008
12:25 am Eastern
© 2008 WorldNetDaily
A man arrested for preaching on a public sidewalk too close to the one of the nation's premiere representations of freedom, the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia, is appealing his conviction and $400 fine.
Liberty Bell in Philadelphia
On Oct. 7, Michael A. Marcavage, director of the evangelistic organization Repent America, was arrested while preaching on the sidewalk outside the Liberty Bell Center and urging Americans to halt abortion.
"We need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ," he told the crowd.
But he soon was approached by a police officer who gave him a verbal permit to preach in a different area, a so-called "free speech zone." He declined, saying such restrictions violated his freedom of speech.
Then on June 13, U.S. Magistrate Judge Arnold C. Rapoport found Marcavage guilty of violating a verbal permit granted to him by the police officer
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=68182
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 2:57:10 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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The Word of God will go forth from Mount Zion as written regardless of what Governance ordinance becomes instituted on earth. The fine, here, is relatively nominal and the gentleman is probably disturbing the peace of sightseers..... However, the right to peaceful demonstration and protest and the right to gather in public places within the valid constraints of form and order is constitutional amendment.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SILVERNAME
'If they shut down our ability to speak, they shut down the Gospel'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: June 28, 2008
12:25 am Eastern
© 2008 WorldNetDaily
A man arrested for preaching on a public sidewalk too close to the one of the nation's premiere representations of freedom, the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia, is appealing his conviction and $400 fine.
Liberty Bell in Philadelphia
On Oct. 7, Michael A. Marcavage, director of the evangelistic organization Repent America, was arrested while preaching on the sidewalk outside the Liberty Bell Center and urging Americans to halt abortion.
"We need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ," he told the crowd.
But he soon was approached by a police officer who gave him a verbal permit to preach in a different area, a so-called "free speech zone." He declined, saying such restrictions violated his freedom of speech.
Then on June 13, U.S. Magistrate Judge Arnold C. Rapoport found Marcavage guilty of violating a verbal permit granted to him by the police officer
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=68182
< Message edited by cybrjewls -- 6/30/2008 3:06:29 AM >
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 10:24:12 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3928
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SILVERNAME
'If they shut down our ability to speak, they shut down the Gospel'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: June 28, 2008
12:25 am Eastern
© 2008 WorldNetDaily
A man arrested for preaching on a public sidewalk too close to the one of the nation's premiere representations of freedom, the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia, is appealing his conviction and $400 fine.
Liberty Bell in Philadelphia
On Oct. 7, Michael A. Marcavage, director of the evangelistic organization Repent America, was arrested while preaching on the sidewalk outside the Liberty Bell Center and urging Americans to halt abortion.
"We need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ," he told the crowd.
But he soon was approached by a police officer who gave him a verbal permit to preach in a different area, a so-called "free speech zone." He declined, saying such restrictions violated his freedom of speech.
Then on June 13, U.S. Magistrate Judge Arnold C. Rapoport found Marcavage guilty of violating a verbal permit granted to him by the police officer
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=68182
I never met a street preacher that wasn't either mentally ill or just a plain nuisance. As long as the ordinance is administered consistently, I see no problem. "Free speech" as protected in the US is not unlimited.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 12:22:13 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
I never met a street preacher that wasn't either mentally ill or just a plain nuisance. As long as the ordinance is administered consistently, I see no problem. "Free speech" as protected in the US is not unlimited.
I agree about street preachers' mental stability, but isn't the idea of a "free speech zone" reprehensible? How can you have limited "zones" where the Constitution applies, outside of which it doesn't? The very idea that the state can "grant" you the right to speak your mind, but only in certain areas, is completely opposite to the notion of freedom of speech.
The ACLU has defended street preachers before. Maybe this guy should call them.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 12:37:26 PM
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Marcus.
Posts: 1314
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When you have to ask permission to exercise a right, it is no longer a right.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 1:16:30 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3928
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
When you have to ask permission to exercise a right, it is no longer a right.
A right is always limited to the extent it interferes with the freedom of others. That's why there are laws against slander, incitement to riot, etc.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 1:53:53 PM
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Marcus.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
When you have to ask permission to exercise a right, it is no longer a right.
A right is always limited to the extent it interferes with the freedom of others. That's why there are laws against slander, incitement to riot, etc.
I agree with that. My concern is with the move to silence critics of the culture war we are in. Re: Colorado SB200
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 2:36:09 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
Free speech doesn't give anyone the right to say whatever they want wherever they want. Like the adage of yelling "fire" in a movie theatre, free speech comes with responsibility. If I'm wearing a "turn or burn" sandwich board and am standing in the middle of a busy intersection with a bullhorn telling every driver or pedestrian that I see that they're going to hell, I would hope that the local authorities (and perhaps some of the mental health people) step in and stop me. You're right that freedom is limited by content and location in situations where it would compromise public safety or infringe on other people's rights, but there doesn't seem to be any indication that in this case that was happening.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 2:38:12 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3928
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
Free speech doesn't give anyone the right to say whatever they want wherever they want. Like the adage of yelling "fire" in a movie theatre, free speech comes with responsibility. If I'm wearing a "turn or burn" sandwich board and am standing in the middle of a busy intersection with a bullhorn telling every driver or pedestrian that I see that they're going to hell, I would hope that the local authorities (and perhaps some of the mental health people) step in and stop me. You're right that freedom is limited by content and location in situations where it would compromise public safety or infringe on other people's rights, but there doesn't seem to be any indication that in this case that was happening.
We would have to know a bit more about the ordinance. The key is that the guy was in violation, regardless of what he was speaking about.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 2:45:08 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Greetings! The gentlemen was warned, though, or informed that there was an appropriate area for the sake of order and law! I would venture to say that this is a very minor infraction, though, and hardly worth wasting tax dollars over; as long as he did not resist arrest.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
Free speech doesn't give anyone the right to say whatever they want wherever they want. Like the adage of yelling "fire" in a movie theatre, free speech coemes with responsibility. If I'm wearing a "turn or burn" sandwich board and am standing in the middle of a busy intersection with a bullhorn telling every driver or pedestrian that I see that they're going to hell, I would hope that the local authorities (and perhaps some of the mental health people) step in and stop me. You're right that freedom is limited by content and location in situations where it would compromise public safety or infringe on other people's rights, but there doesn't seem to be any indication that in this case that was happening.
We would have to know a bit more about the ordinance. The key is that the guy was in violation, regardless of what he was speaking about.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 3:43:41 PM
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Starbucks880
Posts: 148
Joined: 3/11/2008
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I think the guy's fine was deserved. I do agree it was minor and would rather we focus more time on chasing real criminals than these nutty street preachers, unless he was making a huge disturbance or some such thing.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 6:11:49 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1100
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: SILVERNAME
'If they shut down our ability to speak, they shut down the Gospel'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: June 28, 2008
12:25 am Eastern
© 2008 WorldNetDaily
A man arrested for preaching on a public sidewalk too close to the one of the nation's premiere representations of freedom, the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia, is appealing his conviction and $400 fine.
Liberty Bell in Philadelphia
On Oct. 7, Michael A. Marcavage, director of the evangelistic organization Repent America, was arrested while preaching on the sidewalk outside the Liberty Bell Center and urging Americans to halt abortion.
"We need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ," he told the crowd.
But he soon was approached by a police officer who gave him a verbal permit to preach in a different area, a so-called "free speech zone." He declined, saying such restrictions violated his freedom of speech.
Then on June 13, U.S. Magistrate Judge Arnold C. Rapoport found Marcavage guilty of violating a verbal permit granted to him by the police officer
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=68182
I never met a street preacher that wasn't either mentally ill or just a plain nuisance. As long as the ordinance is administered consistently, I see no problem. "Free speech" as protected in the US is not unlimited.
Define "street preacher" please...For my Seminary has several mission evangilism teams that go into several areas of our city, and share the gospel. Sometimes they just hand out tracks, sometimes someone does "preach" the message of the Gospel to those who will listen. Is my seminary and those who go on these teams "mentally ill" or a "nuisance"?
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 7:19:47 PM
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PhunkD
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What seminary is it?
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 7:21:32 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
Joined: 2/17/2008
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While I agree that freedom of speech should not be limited, I wonder if the response here would be different if a war protester set up next to the liberty bell.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 7:30:17 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1100
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
What seminary is it?
Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City Missouri. And we ARE the BEST SBC Seminary! lol...Just because one added a "The" to the name means nothing! lol!
Seriously though, we have several teams that go into different parts of Kansas City, some of the areas that have the busier clubs, bars, theaters, ect. Actually, a class that is required for most Masters level degrees, Basic Evangelism, requires you to go on several teams during the semester to get hands on experience in evangelism.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 6/30/2008 9:53:13 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
Joined: 2/17/2008
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It doesn't necessarily look to be full of crazy people.
But as a seminary graduate myself, I can tell you that most seminaries are.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 7/1/2008 11:40:56 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 228
Joined: 7/20/2006
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To those who applaud the arrest of the preacher, remember- next time it could be you.
If we don't defend our liberties as spelled out in the constitution we will lose those liberties.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 7/1/2008 11:59:10 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3928
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
To those who applaud the arrest of the preacher, remember- next time it could be you.
If we don't defend our liberties as spelled out in the constitution we will lose those liberties.
Well, if I ever stand on a public street corner shouting at people, I would deserve to be arrested.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 7/1/2008 12:03:01 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3928
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
What seminary is it?
Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City Missouri. And we ARE the BEST SBC Seminary! lol...Just because one added a "The" to the name means nothing! lol!
Seriously though, we have several teams that go into different parts of Kansas City, some of the areas that have the busier clubs, bars, theaters, ect. Actually, a class that is required for most Masters level degrees, Basic Evangelism, requires you to go on several teams during the semester to get hands on experience in evangelism.
Witnessing on a personal level is not the same, although I found them annoying as well. They typically work from a script an have a salesman's schtick. A lot I encountered when I lived near a large university were so green they couldn't carry on an intelligent theological discussion.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 7/1/2008 12:07:08 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6386
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
....A lot I encountered when I lived near a large university were so green they couldn't carry on an intelligent theological discussion.
You must not frequent the Theo folders on this forum if you think that's uncommon. I just read some in one thread where a self-proclaimed apostate is giving Bible lesssons and the other posters are gleefully agreeing...
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 7/1/2008 2:00:08 PM
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upNORTder
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To set aside a zone for the right of freedom of speech is to deny that right everywhere else.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 7/1/2008 2:40:37 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3928
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
To set aside a zone for the right of freedom of speech is to deny that right everywhere else.
A misunderstanding of the term "right". If rights were unlimited, there would be no laws, period. Do the Phelps have a "right" to disrupt the funeral of a serviceman?
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 7/1/2008 5:57:16 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
To set aside a zone for the right of freedom of speech is to deny that right everywhere else.
A misunderstanding of the term "right". If rights were unlimited, there would be no laws, period. Do the Phelps have a "right" to disrupt the funeral of a serviceman?
You know that's exactly who I thought of when I read this story. It's nice to think that everyone would be able to say whatever they want wherever they want in any manner they want, but that would lead to nothing short of complete chaos. There have to be limitations.
Why didn't the preacher obey the police officer? He would not have been arrested if he did.
And what about the Phelps? I have seen a documentary about them entitled "The Most Hated Family in America" or something along those lines, and they do more than simply picket funerals. They are on the street corners harrassing passing motorists with obscene signs and gestures. Would it be ok if they came to your street corner and did so? Would you applaud their right to freedom of speech, or would it seem quite threatening to you? I wouldn't want them doing it around me, I can tell you that.
Anyway, there have to be limitations. The preacher should have first of all found out if he was able to stand where he chose, or at least listened to the police officer who told him he had to move. Plain and simple.
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RE: Fine for preaching in public challenged - 7/2/2008 11:54:24 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 228
Joined: 7/20/2006
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The last "right" a person has is that last breath of air they take. When they are done restricting your other rights that may be the only "right" you have left, til they come and take that right from you.
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