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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 4:53:59 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2654
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I think you might be confusing birdshot and buckshot. Take a look at the test results at http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2007/12/05/texas-shooting-joe-horn-s-911-call.aspx using birdshot. Even using the heaviest birdshot available (#4) in a 12-gauge at a 3 yard range, effective penetration of birdshot into ballistic gel was 6.5 inches.
I know precious little about guns, but I've shot enough 12 gauge loads at 50 feet to know it's got good odds of being lethal. 6.5 inches at 3 feet with a full load of shot is a heck of a lot of damage. (FYI - largest 12 guage shot size is actually #2.) Maybe not up to the FBI's minimum standard, but not anything I'd be anxious to test personally. Major point there being that firing off double shots on target in rapid succession isn't that hard - I use normal duck/goose loads on a modified choke and regularly hit double birds.
I don't even want to think about firing a shotgun that would get 12-18" of penetration! That's gotta hurt. As it is I get huge bruises after a box or two of shells.
I remember we had an old antique waterfowl gun - the interior diameter of the barrel was about 2". The fellow that bought it from us loaded it up and fired it using a fence post instead of his shoulder. It cracked the fencepost.
quote:
Granted I'm not sure why we're having this discussion, as only an idiot would load their shotgun with birdshot for home defense.
Pretty much!
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 4:56:48 PM
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ken1906_4
Posts: 294
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Maryland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Hard to say.
It's interesting, though, that you're willing to give 2 illegal immigrant burglars caught in the act, one of whom had a felony drug charge already on his record, the benefit of the doubt, and not this 61 year old man who's terrified and trying to defend his house after watching them rob his neighbor.
you misjudge me. I'm not on anyone's side here. I just don't feel right about how things went down. The 2 illegal immigrants were wrong and paid for it with their lives and they probably deserved it. I also believe that he could have stayed in his house because as soon as he shot the guys the police was there. He could have waited 30 more seconds and pointed out the direction the to burgulars ran to the police. They would have been caught and justice would have been served.
So once again I ask the question, is it ok to be a good samaritan at the expense of a life?
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 4:57:19 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2235
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Hard to say.
It's interesting, though, that you're willing to give 2 illegal immigrant burglars caught in the act, one of whom had a felony drug charge already on his record, the benefit of the doubt, and not this 61 year old man who's terrified and trying to defend his house after watching them rob his neighbor.
Terrified people stay inside. Vigilantes chase people down and shoot them in the back.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 5:00:54 PM
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ken1906_4
Posts: 294
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From: Maryland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
The man was acting within the Castle law of Texas, and I am so glad that some of you bleeding liberals were not on the Grand Jury to try and legislate by decree.
I deer hunt in Texas and I just love the posted signs on the property;
"Tresspaser will be shot, survivors will be prosecuted".
But I saw one on the adjoning property I liked even better.
"Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again".
Don't mess with Texas.
Thanks
RC
Good grief, why everyone that don't share your opinion have to be a bleeding heart liberal 
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 5:02:59 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 612
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Horn called 911 and told the dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the men. The dispatcher pleaded with him not to go outside, but Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back.
And for this reason alone Mr. Horn is a pre-meditated murderer! He told the 911 dispatch that he was going to kill them!
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Horn's attorney, Tom Lambright, has said his client believed the two men had broken into his neighbor's home and that he shot them only when they came into his yard and threatened him.
He's an attorney for the accused...what else could he be expected to say?
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I'd love to hear that 911 tape where he went with the intention of killing! This killing is no different than a gang banger gunning down someone who's in "su barrio".
Shot them in the back. What were they doing to threaten him? Mooning him? Killing with a shotgun has to be done at a closer range as well. Looks like he went hunting for some latinos!
I think he just wanted t shoot someone because he thought he could get away with murder....sadly it appears he was right
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 5:06:47 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1310
Joined: 7/31/2007
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Penetration on ballistic gel is rather different from penetration when there are bones involved. Fortunately. ;)
quote:
I also believe that he could have stayed in his house because as soon as he shot the guys the police was there. He could have waited 30 more seconds and pointed out the direction the to burgulars ran to the police.
Actually if you listen to the call, the dispatcher asks him which way they're going and he doesn't know because he can't see... that's when he goes outside to find out and stop them.
quote:
Terrified people stay inside. Vigilantes chase people down and shoot them in the back.
You can be terrified and still try to do what you think is right. *shrug*
The guy didn't chase them down. They were in his yard, when they frankly shouldn't have even been in this country, much less his neighborhood. Then he told them not to move, and they didn't listen.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 5:07:49 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1868
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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Again, if people don't want to get shot in an attempted burglary, DON'T STEAL in the first place, especially in places where people have the right to defend their homes and property.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 5:11:16 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 612
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Killing with a shotgun has to be done at a closer range as well.
It's interesting that you would point this out in your argument.
Obviously they were close enough to be a threat to him if they were within killing range of a shotgun, since, as you say, a shotgun is pretty much a close-range weapon (unless you have a specific type of choke, but that's another conversation). Close enough that he could aim, shoot, pump, aim, shoot, which, frankly, unless you're a star shotgun artist, takes a bit. Either they weren't actually in a hurry to leave or they were quite literally in his face when he started. Either way, definitely "plausible threat" material.
Uhhh NO! I can fire off two rounds from a pump 12 gauge in a matter of seconds and I'm no star shotgun artist!! Try shooting one sometime you'll see what I mean
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 5:24:30 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2367
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I'd love to hear that 911 tape where he went with the intention of killing! This killing is no different than a gang banger gunning down someone who's in "su barrio".
Shot them in the back. What were they doing to threaten him? Mooning him? Killing with a shotgun has to be done at a closer range as well. Looks like he went hunting for some latinos!
I think he just wanted to shoot someone because he thought he could get away with murder....sadly it appears he was right
Su barrio. Lol. (Not mocking; I love Spanish. :)
I think that's what he was up to also.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 5:25:09 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
You seriously have to be crazy or stupid to commit a crime in Texas. Residents have the right to shoot to kill and if you make it past that, we put more people to death than anyone else.
We have those laws here too. After a rash of carjackings in New Orleans the law was expanded to include your car. When a serial killer was killing LSU students a few years ago, Gov. Foster reminded the students that this was a conceal/carry state and by all means do what you have to in order to protect yourselves. There were lots of new permits needless to say.
< Message edited by StephK -- 7/1/2008 5:31:19 PM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 5:45:32 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1310
Joined: 7/31/2007
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I would say that aim, shoot, pump, aim, shoot, would take the average person about 10 seconds.
A highly motivated person (which is generally the case when a person decides to run away from a guy holding a shotgun) can make it quite a ways in that time.
Granted perhaps I'm just not very good with our single-shot 12-gauge. ;)
I prefer the rifle anyway.
To accuse someone of wanting to get away with murder is frankly a pretty nasty and probably unfair accusation. The guy was scared, he wanted to stop a robbery, he was afraid they were coming after him (especially since the dispatcher was telling him they might shoot him).
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 5:50:38 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2654
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I would say that aim, shoot, pump, aim, shoot, would take the average person about 10 seconds.
Granted perhaps I'm just not very good with our single-shot 12-gauge. ;)
Ah. Single shot would make it LOTS tougher. I've no idea how slow I'd be with a single shot - VERY slow would probably cover it.
I use an old Remington model 12 that holds 3 shells. A reasonably adept user could do 3 shots in about 3-5 seconds. I can usually get 3 shots done before the last clay pigeon falls (assuming I missed on one of the two first shells.) I figure about 1-2 seconds per shell to track, center, and fire. The last pigeon is AWFULLY low to the ground by the time the 3rd shot comes though.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 6:21:07 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2235
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
The man was acting within the Castle law of Texas, and I am so glad that some of you bleeding liberals were not on the Grand Jury to try and legislate by decree.
I deer hunt in Texas and I just love the posted signs on the property;
"Tresspaser will be shot, survivors will be prosecuted".
But I saw one on the adjoning property I liked even better.
"Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again".
Don't mess with Texas.
Thanks
RC
Good grief, why everyone that don't share your opinion have to be a bleeding heart liberal
Just be thankful he didn't use the conservative coup de gras "pinko, commie".
Some people believe of rule of law. Texans believe in rule of gun.
Here's another person that believed in 2nd Amendment rights, RTC and all that stuff. But will I say everyone who champions the 2nd amendment is like this? Hardly!
[Timothy] McVeigh spent time on the gun show circuit. He sold copies of The Turner Diaries, and a flare gun which he said could shoot down an "ATF helicopter".[8][9] One author said, "In the gun show culture, McVeigh found a home. Though he remained skeptical of some of the most extreme ideas being bandied around, he liked talking to people there about the United Nations, the federal government, and possible threats to American liberty." The Case of a Right Wing Nut
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 6:22:45 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
I use an old Remington model 12 that holds 3 shells. A reasonably adept user could do 3 shots in about 3-5 seconds.
Sounds about rijght, maybe quicker at a large target close up.
I would advise taking the plug out of the model 12 when it is used at home for protection, gives a total of 5 rounds.
But you already knew that.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 7:44:55 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2119
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
Again, if people don't want to get shot in an attempted burglary, DON'T STEAL in the first place, especially in places where people have the right to defend their homes and property.
Taking money. . .
taking lives. . .
in Texas, the latter seems more acceptable.
maybe some ya'll can drop your Texan pride and realize that two human lives were forever lost that never had to be. It was an avoidable situation. He didn't have to shoot. He didn't have to go in the yard. Even if he did have to shoot, he didn't have to aim to kill.
Regardless of the fact that they were stealing. . .
Human life is still more important than your puking laws.
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love.ben
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 7:49:10 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1947
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Well, I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere, and I was trained from a very young age to protect family before all else. Gun safety started at 4 years old. At 12, I was standing on the porch with my mother casually holding a high-powered rifle while my dad went out to tell the drunken hunters that they weren't going to be allowed to rampage through our farm trying to shoot the pheasant they just saw. I'm a crack shot. I didn't want to shoot anyone (for that matter I don't even like the thought of shooting animals unless I really have to), but if they had threatened my father I came to terms very early with the fact that I would have. The price of having to kill someone is high, but the price of my sisters and I losing our father was unacceptable if I could prevent it. Fortunately our mere presence was always enough to make them behave and leave with at worst a few hurled curses.
When you grow up like that, you don't have the recourse of police. By the time they could get there, your entire family would be dead and the murderers would be done with what they came to do and long gone. So you understand the fact that if a known criminal threatens your family and obviously knows where you live, you're not going to be staying awake every night behind the window bars and deadbolts and steel doors and burglar alarms you just installed trembling and hoping they don't carry through, you're going to take care of it and have done with it. They made their choice when they decided on a life of crime, and better to make them suffer the consequences than your innocent family members.
An excellent example of the purpose of the 10th amendment and why laws shouldn't always be uniformly applied to everyone. I wouldn't be suprised if you had a few pit bulls out there either.
However in my suburban area please put your guns away and keep any dogs you may have locked up. ; )
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 8:23:44 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3894
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Regardless of the fact that they were stealing. . .
Human life is still more important than your puking laws.
I'm sorry two people were killed.
I'm sorry they didn't think "We'd better not break into a house because we might get shot." Of course, they were here illegally, so they may not have been up to speed on the law.
What the law does is make a criminal's life the risk in any crime. What we will never know is how many crimes don't get committed because someone does think ahead to the possibility that someone nearby has a gun and will use it.
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I'm tired of signatures.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 8:29:00 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2367
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
He didn't have to shoot. He didn't have to go in the yard. Even if he did have to shoot, he didn't have to aim to kill.
Absolutely.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 8:36:33 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
Again, if people don't want to get shot in an attempted burglary, DON'T STEAL in the first place, especially in places where people have the right to defend their homes and property.
Taking money. . .
taking lives. . .
in Texas, the latter seems more acceptable.
maybe some ya'll can drop your Texan pride and realize that two human lives were forever lost that never had to be. It was an avoidable situation. He didn't have to shoot. He didn't have to go in the yard. Even if he did have to shoot, he didn't have to aim to kill.
Regardless of the fact that they were stealing. . .
Human life is still more important than your puking laws.
When these people break the law over and over and over again they can't expect not to come across someone who has had enough. Why in the heck was an illegal alien with felony drug charges out and about robbing neighborhoods during the work hours????
I've been robbed and it's not the loss of things that is the most disturbing it's the loss of security in your own home that is the biggest issue. The law was not helpful in putting the career criminal behind bars in my case. I did get a gun and a guard dog afterwards. It was the person I thought it was that the law "couldn't do anything about". He nearly got his meth addicted head chewed off when he tried to break into my house again. This person will not stop his criminal behavior until he murders someone and then the law may just keep him locked up. Unfortunately it's a relative. He's a sociopath. Other people don't matter to him.
< Message edited by StephK -- 7/1/2008 8:45:40 PM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 9:30:31 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2119
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
What the law does is make a criminal's life the risk in any crime. What we will never know is how many crimes don't get committed because someone does think ahead to the possibility that someone nearby has a gun and will use it.
Oh, of course. They never had any other options in life but to continue to steal. . .
They could never change, never find Christ, never have a soul that anyone would care about. . .
They are just two dirty, worthless robbers who got what they deserved.
To be brutally murdered.
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love.ben
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