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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 10:24:16 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1324
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
An excellent example of the purpose of the 10th amendment and why laws shouldn't always be uniformly applied to everyone. I wouldn't be suprised if you had a few pit bulls out there either.
However in my suburban area please put your guns away and keep any dogs you may have locked up. ; )
Pit bulls are dangerous to the family and are therefore unacceptable.
As for guns, I will keep them where I always keep them until I have to use them. *shrug* It's not like I walk around all day with one in a hip holster. It's like a screwdriver, you don't even think about the fact you have one, unless you happen to need it.
quote:
They are just two dirty, worthless robbers who got what they deserved.
To be brutally murdered.
Technically, the reason they were shot was because they disregarded an order to not move, and threatened a 61 year old man holding a shotgun in his own front yard.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 10:46:59 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
It was an avoidable situation.
Yes, it was. The thieves could have avoided it by refraining from breaking into someones house to steal their belongings.
quote:
Human life is still more important than your puking laws.
Well obviously the burglars disagree with you. After all, they risked theirs in defiance of the law.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 11:02:43 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 615
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
An excellent example of the purpose of the 10th amendment and why laws shouldn't always be uniformly applied to everyone. I wouldn't be suprised if you had a few pit bulls out there either.
However in my suburban area please put your guns away and keep any dogs you may have locked up. ; )
Pit bulls are dangerous to the family and are therefore unacceptable.
As for guns, I will keep them where I always keep them until I have to use them. *shrug* It's not like I walk around all day with one in a hip holster. It's like a screwdriver, you don't even think about the fact you have one, unless you happen to need it.
quote:
They are just two dirty, worthless robbers who got what they deserved.
To be brutally murdered.
Technically, the reason they were shot was because they disregarded an order to not move, and threatened a 61 year old man holding a shotgun in his own front yard.
You keep ignoring the fact that he shot them in the back. Why?
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Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/1/2008 11:12:54 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1324
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I don't know. I do know that he was considered justified by both the plainsclothes detective who saw the entire thing happen, and the Grand Jury who acquitted him. I know that Horn believed that at least one of the men was about to charge him, so he fired the first shot. I imagine that Horn was pretty twitchy and scared for his own life after the dispatcher had just suggested that the men were going to shoot him if he went out there, so I am not surprise that he reacted at the first sign that they might do something.
There's an interesting interview with Horn at http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5866865.html, explaining what Horn says he saw and why he reacted as he did.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 1:08:45 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2135
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I don't know. I do know that he was considered justified by both the plainsclothes detective who saw the entire thing happen, and the Grand Jury who acquitted him. I know that Horn believed that at least one of the men was about to charge him, so he fired the first shot. I imagine that Horn was pretty twitchy and scared for his own life after the dispatcher had just suggested that the men were going to shoot him if he went out there, so I am not surprise that he reacted at the first sign that they might do something.
There's an interesting interview with Horn at http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5866865.html, explaining what Horn says he saw and why he reacted as he did.
Obviously you didn't listen to the dispatcher tape. . .
Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7jqLie6-Y0
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 1:41:33 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2370
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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The man seemed trigger-happy to me. He should have stayed in his own house. <shrugs> Especially listening to the audio again...
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 3:15:16 AM
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Marcus.
Posts: 1314
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I practice with my weapons for self defense regularly and have been through the carry permit classes a few times. Here's a few points to consider that wasn't brought up.
*Firing a warning shot or shooting to wound is considered proof in many states that the situation wasn't life threatening. If it was you would shoot to kill. People defending
themselves have been criminally prosecuted for playing the Lone Ranger that way. Nice idea unfortunately you will get into legal trouble doing this.
**When you fear for your life, even trained professionals don't hit where they aim and they may empty the entire magazine or cylinder during the fight.
**All training programs (I'm former military also) I know of train to shoot for the center of mass. You may miss and still get a non lethal but debilitating hit.
Only snipers train for head shots.
*Folks who use and practice with pump action shotguns for defense can be as fast as a semi-auto. Go check out a 3 gun shoot at a practical shooting competition. Most
cycle the action on the recoil and use some of the energy of the recoil to speed up the motion.
*The distance that this took place over isn't mentioned nor is the kind of ammunition mentioned. Granted a shotgun is a short range weapon similar to pistols/revolvers.
My bet is they were close enough to grab the old guy in a few strides. It sounds like a close confrontation to me. Anyone within 5 or 6 large strides should always be
considered a threat. It doesn't take that long to cover the distance and your reaction time would put them on you by the time you reacted. More info is needed.
*The specific location the men were hit in wasn't mentioned. Back could also be the side. More info is needed to know. They could have been running past and not directly
away. Again more info is needed.
*Did he have combat experience in his past? Even if he did, at his age protecting himself from a couple of criminals and having them outside his house would have made
him anxious, nervous, scared, etc. Even soldiers get carried away when they get scared enough. Some battle field heroics are adrenaline induced fear reactions. Fight
or flight response. He may have been deathly afraid. How many of you have faced a similar situation? I have. It's not what TV makes it out to be. Armchair quarter-
backing what happened in a few minutes when you aren't in fear for your life is no where close to what he was going through. The thought processes aren't the same.
*How many times had the neighborhood been burglarized? I'm curious about that. I have experience having lived in a rural neighborhood that had a family of thieves move
in. After multiple break-ins the whole neighborhood was jumpy. After a while folks where just waiting for one of those family members to make a no notice visit.
**Maybe the criminals did threaten him as they left, we don't know. Again more info is needed. That may have added to his reason to shoot.
*Not mentioned in the article but it was on the dispatch tape was that the neighbor was an ethnic minority so save the condescending comments.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 7/2/2008 3:28:08 AM >
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 4:59:03 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2253
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I don't know. I do know that he was considered justified by both the plainsclothes detective who saw the entire thing happen, and the Grand Jury who acquitted him. I know that Horn believed that at least one of the men was about to charge him, so he fired the first shot. I imagine that Horn was pretty twitchy and scared for his own life after the dispatcher had just suggested that the men were going to shoot him if he went out there, so I am not surprise that he reacted at the first sign that they might do something.
There's an interesting interview with Horn at http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5866865.html, explaining what Horn says he saw and why he reacted as he did.
Obviously you didn't listen to the dispatcher tape. . .
Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7jqLie6-Y0
After listening to the 911 tape it reinforces that he wanted to play vigilante and had every intention of killing those guys. He didn't have to leave the house, the cops were already on scene. He even told the guy "You're dead" before he shot him. He had every intention of doing only one thing - killing someone. I hope he feels like a REAL man now!  This is not an example of responsible gun ownership!
BTW, I wouldn't want this paranoid nut job living next to me either! He might shoot my Mexican cleaning lady! We give her bags of old toys for her kids and she take them out in plastic bags after we've left the house. He'd think she was robbing the house and go "do something"!
Marcus, the amount of crime in the neighborhood was alluded to in the tape - not a whole lot.
< Message edited by mapachito13 -- 7/2/2008 5:07:01 AM >
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Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 5:51:09 AM
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rlj
Posts: 1952
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
You keep ignoring the fact that he shot them in the back. Why?
The law is moot anyway if the Grand Jury doesn't indict. They didn't. I applaud them and the state that actually allows people to defend themselves.
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1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 6:10:49 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 204
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Even if he did have to shoot, he didn't have to aim to kill.
Yeah that would have been smart, then he could be drug over the coals by a lawyer for violating the rights of these two criminals.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 6:25:46 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 204
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
*The specific location the men were hit in wasn't mentioned. Back could also be the side. More info is needed to know. They could have been running past and not directly
away. Again more info is needed.
Or they could have been coming at the man and turned to run when he raised the gun to shoot and got shot. We don't know but the cop who witnessed the shooting does and obviously he saw nothing wrong with the events leading up to the shooting.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 8:07:49 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2253
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Even if he did have to shoot, he didn't have to aim to kill.
Yeah that would have been smart, then he could be drug over the coals by a lawyer for violating the rights of these two criminals.
Make up your mind. Was it "legal" for him to shoot them in "Wild West" Texas or not? He shouldn't have to worry about being "drug over the coals" since it was "legal", right?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 9:09:07 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10857
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From: Lone Star State
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Of course anybody is going to be worried about being "drug over the coals" when you have this mindset that is so prevalent here that the only thing to do to better your community is to hid yourself in a closet in your house to avoid bad things when they happen right next door to you! That's why this law was created so that people could LEGALLY react to situations that endanger their lives.
Give me Joe Horn as a neighbor any day. At least I know he's watching my back. And yours too in case you didn't realize.
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We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 9:11:00 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10857
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From: Lone Star State
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Pit bulls and shotguns...
Instruments of EVIL! 
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We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 9:12:05 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3913
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
What the law does is make a criminal's life the risk in any crime. What we will never know is how many crimes don't get committed because someone does think ahead to the possibility that someone nearby has a gun and will use it.
Oh, of course. They never had any other options in life but to continue to steal. . .
They could never change, never find Christ, never have a soul that anyone would care about. . .
They are just two dirty, worthless robbers who got what they deserved.
To be brutally murdered.
They had every option besides stealing and didn't take them; they chose to break into someone's home and take their belongings. The gun owner had every option and chose to shoot, for whatever reason. The law is on his side, not the robbers.
Again, even by your own logic, it's entirely possible that many many would-be criminals are thinking twice about taking their lives into their own hands, turning their lives around and making better choices.
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I'm tired of signatures.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 9:20:37 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10857
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From: Lone Star State
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quote:
"I don't agree with Stellaluna..." -- miasma
Well, in this case I don't agree with miasma. 
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We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 9:23:10 AM
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ken1906_4
Posts: 295
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From: Maryland
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So now we know Mr. Horn's response, what would have been the Christian response to this? Would you wait and let the Holy Spirit guide you to make a decision or would you just react? 
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 9:48:42 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1324
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
After listening to the 911 tape it reinforces that he wanted to play vigilante and had every intention of killing those guys. He didn't have to leave the house, the cops were already on scene. He even told the guy "You're dead" before he shot him. He had every intention of doing only one thing - killing someone. I hope he feels like a REAL man now! This is not an example of responsible gun ownership!
*sigh*
He didn't know the cops were on the scene at the time. The only cop on the scene when he went out the door was a plainsclothes officer accross the street. The dispatcher did not inform him about that plainsclothes officer until he came back in the house after the shooting (at which point it seems other police finally showed up).
He didn't just say "You're dead", he yelled "Move, you're dead". There's a big difference there, one is intent to kill someone, the other is giving someone a warning. Unfortunately for them, the criminals decided to move.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 9:50:39 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1633
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
You keep ignoring the fact that he shot them in the back. Why?
The law is moot anyway if the Grand Jury doesn't indict. They didn't. I applaud them and the state that actually allows people to defend themselves.
How can you play this off as simple self-defense? It's not like this guy was sitting on his couch minding his own business. He went looking for a gunfight against the repeated instructions of a police officer.
quote:
They had every option besides stealing and didn't take them; they chose to break into someone's home and take their belongings. The gun owner had every option and chose to shoot, for whatever reason. The law is on his side, not the robbers.
Should we use that argument in the abortion threads? The law is on the side of the mother & doctor, so therefore, it's ok?
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 10:03:56 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2253
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Of course anybody is going to be worried about being "drug over the coals" when you have this mindset that is so prevalent here that the only thing to do to better your community is to hid yourself in a closet in your house to avoid bad things when they happen right next door to you! That's why this law was created so that people could LEGALLY react to situations that endanger their lives.
Give me Joe Horn as a neighbor any day. At least I know he's watching my back. And yours too in case you didn't realize.
No, I'd be doing what Mr. Horn started to do. I would talk with the police from INSIDE MY HOUSE and report descriptions and all that was happening and I'll leave catching the bad guys to the police! He endangered HIS OWN LIFE by being agressive and going outside! If he stayed indoors like the police told him REPEATEDLY they probably wouldn't have even noticed him and the police arriving on scene would have apprehended them and I bet they wouldn't have fired one shot!
I'm of a different color so the only thing Mr. Horn would see on my back was a target thinking I was some illegal alien!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 10:06:11 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6386
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I'm of a different color so the only thing Mr. Horn would see on my back was a target thinking I was some illegal alien!
That's a racist remark unless you have some actual evidence that that is Mr. Horn's mindset...
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 10:06:38 AM
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SteveSund
Posts: 588
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Here is the Castle Doctrine Law that this case is all about. There is no mention of night or day or dusk or dawn in it.
Correct, but was this law mentioned by the Grand Jury? I don't see how it would apply in this situation, as it wouldn't apply if you were using lethal force in regards to someone else's property. It only applies if you are defending your own property.
This law would protect him, though:
quote:
"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to pervent the other who is fleeing after committing burglary, robbery, or theft during the nighttime, from escaping with the property and he reasonable believes that the property cannot be recovered by any other means; or, the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the property would expose him or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. (Nighttime is defined as the period 30 minutes after sunset until 30 minutes before sunrise.)"
Basically, the gist is that deadly force can be used for the protection and/or recovery of personal property even when the assumed burglar is running away - under two conditions:
1) it's "nighttime", or
2) if during the day, the use of non-deadly force would result in a substantial risk of death or serious injury
#1 gives the safe-harbor right to protect property during the night,
#2 gives the right to use deadly force to protect property, but is conditioned on the risk of serious personal injury to recover the property.
I do want to point out the mistake in the analysis. Nighttime only applies in the case of theft, as the writers of this law used the word or between theft and robbery. The three crimes listed are distinct and theft is not as serious, which is probably why deadly force can only be used at night in that situation.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/2/2008 10:09:40 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1324
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I'm of a different color so the only thing Mr. Horn would see on my back was a target thinking I was some illegal alien!
That's a racist remark unless you have some actual evidence that that is Mr. Horn's mindset...
Not to mention that the burglars in question weren't ethnically hispanic, they were Afro-latino Columbians. In other words... they were black.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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