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mvic -> How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 8:41:30 AM)

Judas repented. He returned the money he received for betraying Jesus. He was deeply sorry for what he had done, so much so, that he took his own life.

Did God forgive him?



armydude -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 8:43:47 AM)

The sorrow of Judas drove him to suicide, but not to Jesus. If our sorrow drives us to Jesus we find life. If our sorrow drives us away from Jesus we cannot because only He has the words of life.


ETA: The question is this. Where does sorrow drive us?



mvic -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 9:05:29 AM)

Hi Armydude,

Judas repented. Presumably in his heart he said sorry to Jesus/God for what he did to Him. We don't know that because it isn't recorded in the Bible; but we can assume that his repentance was admittance that he did wrong, and regret for what he had done. Hence seeking forgiveness for a sin committed.

Assuming this is so - did God then forgive him?

On the Cross Jesus said "Forgive them, they don't know what they're doing."

Does this apply to Judas too?



armydude -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 9:12:55 AM)

I'm going to point out a couple of big words in your post.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Judas repented. Presumably in his heart he said sorry to Jesus/God for what he did to him. We don't know that because it isn't recorded in the Bible; but we can assume that his repentance was admittance that he did wrong, and regret for what he had done. Hence seeking forgiveness for a sin committed.

Assuming this is so - did God then forgive him?

On the Cross Jesus said "Forgive them, they don't know what they're doing."

Does this apply to Judas too?
When we assume anything about God's word we're treading on dangerous ground. Was forgiveness offered? Of course it was. Forgiveness was offered to everyone (For God so loved the world...)
But was it accepted? Judas was indeed sorry for his actions, but did that sorrow drive him to Jesus for forgiveness? That's not recorded in the bible anywhere, so I can't find anything to support the idea that he did.

Having said that, I have to add this. He may very well be in heaven when we get there. That would be a surprise to me, but then again my presence will be a surprise to some, I'm sure.



BerianAardvark -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 9:39:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Judas repented. He returned the money he received for betraying Jesus. He was deeply sorry for what he had done, so much so, that he took his own life.

Did God forgive him?


According to Easton’s Bible Dictionary, there are a couple of Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance.

(1.) The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. (This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas in Matthew. 27:3).

This is the sort the world loves, it is the sort that many people wallow in before they find Christ (and some times even after, unfortunately.)

True repentance differers from the world’s counterfeit:

(2.) Metanoeo, meaning to change one’s mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge. This verb is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised. Evangelical repentance consists of (1) a true sense of one’s own guilt and sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God’s mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred of sin (Psalms. 119:128; Job 42:5, 6; 2 Corinthians. 7:10) and turning from it to God; and (4) a persistent endeavor after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments.

The true penitent is conscious of guilt (Psalms 51:4, 9), of pollution (Psalms 51:5, 7, 10), and of helplessness (Psalms 51:11; 109:21, 22). Thus he apprehends himself to be just what God has always seen him to be and declares him to be. But repentance comprehends not only such a sense of sin, but also an apprehension of mercy, without which there can be no true repentance (Ps. 51:1; 130:4). (Emphasis added)

That is the sort of repentance Peter after his betrayal of Jesus.

The enemy of our souls, Satan, uses the former, worldly, sort of “repentance” to accuse and torment us, to keep us hopelessly sick and wounded by our sins.

It does so because, while there is the recognition of sin, and regret for its commission there is no hope contained within that pain, no understanding that God can show mercy and forgiveness and that very a real possibility for change that can come from that pain.

By denying the possibility of mercy and forgiveness, Satan thus produces in place of change, despair. In place of a drawing near to God for strength to overcome, false repentance produces a feeling of hopelessness that MAY produce a desire to change, but that desire is immediately followed by the back of the mind surety of future failure since it is based solely on OUR strength.

Godly repentance recognizes our weakness, but also God's strength and mercy, and His willingness to both forgive and to change us.

For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, a repentance not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world finally produces death. 2 Corinthians 7:10

Judas felt metamelomai, but not Metanoeo true repentance. Just as Judas acted in the flesh by betraying Jesus, he repented in the flesh only, which does not lead to forgiveness.

Tim



mvic -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 9:54:21 AM)

Thanx Armydude,

I agree with your interpretation. I will not be surprised to see you in Heaven!

Hi Berian Aardvark,

Thanx for the explanation. I see your point regarding Metamelomai and Metanoeo. There is no way that Matthew knew which repentance Judas felt; albeit he used the word Metamelomai in his Gospel. So Armydude may well be right regarding Judas being in Heaven.

We'll wait and see.



deermousie -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 10:46:17 AM)

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

My understanding is that this refers to Judas. Comments?



mvic -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 1:22:12 PM)

Hi Deermousie,

If you are right - and I believe you are; then this opens up a totally new question.

Did Judas have a choice regarding the betrayal? Was he just following a pre-determined path so "that the Scripture might be fulfilled"?

If so then: How great is thy mercy Lord? This man was following Your instructions.

Comments anyone?



BerianAardvark -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 2:00:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Hi Berian Aardvark,

Thanx for the explanation. I see your point regarding Metamelomai and Metanoeo. There is no way that Matthew knew which repentance Judas felt; albeit he used the word Metamelomai in his Gospel. So Armydude may well be right regarding Judas being in Heaven.

We'll wait and see.


Since scripture is inspired then wouldn't Mathew's choice words in this case have been inspired as well?

Matthew could not have known Judas' heart, but the Holy Spirit certainly would.

Tim



Lufia -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 9:13:31 PM)

Just my opinion: God knew Judas would betrade Jesus. Judas had free will to do it or not but he did, and God knew it. I dont understand all but one thing is sure God doesn't force us to do evil work. In the case of Judas it is indeed very hard to understand ( God had to choose someone as a betrayer??? ) But i'm sure that we all have free will to believe or not in God. I don't believe in predestination.



delete123 -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 9:17:08 PM)

I have to agree with Berian and DeerMousie.
To my understanding Judas believed that Jesus would be glorified here and when he realized that was not going to happen, he betrayed Jesus.

In Luke 22:22 Jesus said, "And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determinded, but Woe to that man (Judas) by whom He is betrayed.

Now if you refer to John 13:27 it states that satan entered Judas. The truth was not in him.


He was looking for wordly recognition, so his heart was not after God.

I don't remember right off hand, but there is something else that made me believe that he won't be in heaven.

CRH



justasheep -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/6/2008 11:49:51 PM)

Lufia,
I know you're adamantly against predestination and all but you might want to avoid passages such as Acts 2:23

23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Judas was the one prophesied in Psalm 41:9 and reiterated here in John 13:18 18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, [1] ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’

Judas was part of this definite plan of God to hand over His son to be crucified. So who crucified Jesus anyways? I would say in the end - God did. That should make your mouth drop in awe. We will forever be marveling and praising God for his glorious grace and the fact that He bruised his son for our sake and for His glory.

I'm afraid that free will had nothing to do with Judas' betrayal altough he most certainly was willing and is completely guilty before a Holy God. Just as has been previously quoted,
11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

This passage is part of the high priestly prayer to God. Jesus is asking God to keep those who were given to him by God. Apparently Judas was not one of them.



Liveloved -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/7/2008 1:43:16 AM)

God's word tells us that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That is true for all.

So did Judas confess his sin to God? Others have spoken to what true repentance is. One of the best biblical illustrations of true repentance and confession is found in Psalm 51 by David. David confesses his sin and pleads with God to cleanse him thoroughly. If this were all of his confession, it would not be enough. But it continues. In verse four, David says, "Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, and done what is evil in Thy sight, so that Thou art justified when Thou dost speak, and blameless when Thou dost judge." You see, David's not looking at himself, his own pain over his wrongdoing. David knows that this is not about him. Sin is against God. Sin is evil done to God. David confesses the sinfulness of sin and its damaging, destroying, deathwielding power and is deeply grieved. And his lament continues. He knows only God can cleanse him, wash away this evil and bring the restoration he is so needful of. That is a picture of true repentance.

Do we hear that kind of confession from Judas? Do we hear him grieved over the evil he has done to God? Or do we hear a man who is sorry because he's done something evil? It is in that difference that we come to understand what true repentance is.

Others have brought up the subject of Judas' choice. Certainly Judas had the choice. Right up to the end, the Lord Jesus invited and encouraged, giving Judas every opportunity to change his mind, his heart. He called him friend. He fed him his body. God's foreknowledge in no way negates Judas' freewill. God knew how Judas would choose. But Judas was given the choice and every opportunity to choose rightly.

No man is predestined for evil. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus (Romans 8:29-30). That is the beauty, the glory and the mercy of God. Yes, indeed, His mercy is great!



mvic -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/7/2008 9:11:41 AM)

Hi Justasheep and Liveloved,

I am not here as an advocate for Judas. But what you say has left some questions in my mind.

"Judas was part of this definite plan of God to hand over His son to be crucified." Justasheep.

"I'm afraid that free will had nothing to do with Judas' betrayal altough he most certainly was willing and is completely guilty before a Holy God." Justasheep.

" ... and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." Justasheep quoting the Bible.

"So did Judas confess his sin to God?" Liveloved.

If, as you say, Judas was part of God's plan, (and I suspect you're right), then Judas had no choice really - did he?

Had he decided NOT to betray Jesus, he would have ruined God's plan and all the prophecies about his role in Christ's betrayal. Hence he had NO choice - and consequently he had NO sin to confess or be repentant of. One might say he was a robot following a pre-programmed set of instructions.

We can't have it both ways. Either he had a free choice and could have ruined God's plan if he opted for it. Or he didn't have a free choice at all and was following a pre-set destiny.

Hence the question in my title: How great is thy mercy Lord? Did You set him up and then forgave him, or did you not forgive him?



BerianAardvark -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/7/2008 11:31:57 AM)

quote:

Had he decided NOT to betray Jesus, he would have ruined God's plan and all the prophecies about his role in Christ's betrayal. Hence he had NO choice - and consequently he had NO sin to confess or be repentant of. One might say he was a robot following a pre-programmed set of instructions.

We can't have it both ways. Either he had a free choice and could have ruined God's plan if he opted for it. Or he didn't have a free choice at all and was following a pre-set destiny.


There is no shortage of betrayers (real or potential) in this world.

It doesn't matter if Jesus or God knew before hand that Judas would betray Jesus.

The ONLY way that Jesus' foreknowledge that Judas would betray Him would have effected his ability to do so is if He had stopped Judas from betraying Him.

That would have changed the choice that Judas made, interfering with his free will, because Judas' choice was to betray Jesus.

Judas had a choice to make, Jesus didn't interfere with that choice even though He know what that choice would be (and the pain it would bring to Him personally).

He treated Judas just like He did His other disciples, favoring him over most by allowing him into his inner circle of twelve. If anything He made it harder for Judas by giving him no reason or excuse for betraying Him.

Since God is omniscient, He knows of ALL of our sins before we commit them, are we relieved from the need repent and confess our sins because He knew we would do them and didn't stop us?

If we have no such plea, why would Judas?

Tim



Liveloved -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/7/2008 1:06:05 PM)

quote:

If, as you say, Judas was part of God's plan, (and I suspect you're right), then Judas had no choice really - did he?

Had he decided NOT to betray Jesus, he would have ruined God's plan and all the prophecies about his role in Christ's betrayal. Hence he had NO choice - and consequently he had NO sin to confess or be repentant of. One might say he was a robot following a pre-programmed set of instructions.

We can't have it both ways. Either he had a free choice and could have ruined God's plan if he opted for it. Or he didn't have a free choice at all and was following a pre-set destiny.

Hence the question in my title: How great is thy mercy Lord? Did You set him up and then forgave him, or did you not forgive him?


Do we understand what foreknowledge is????????????? I think not.

Foreknowledge does not mean God made you do it.

Foreknowledge does not mean you had no choice.

Foreknowledge means God knows before you. God has given us freewill. We choose. He knows how we will choose---that is foreknowledge.

To attribute evil motives to God comes from not knowing Him. Our God is the man with a hundred sheep and one goes astray. He leaves the ninety nine and goes and searches for the one. And if He finds it, he rejoices over it MORE than over the ninety nine which did not go astray. Thus it is not God's will that any one perish.

You could change that to a God who picks twelve disciples. And one goes astray, Judas. He searched for Judas by loving him to the end and giving him every opportunity to return to His love. Judas was not found. God grieves because one is lost.

That is the great mercy of our God. And those mercies are new and waiting to be found every morning.[:)]



justasheep -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/7/2008 2:04:36 PM)

mvic,
You have brought some of the most complex and deepest mysteries in the bible. I think you're seeing the scriptures for what they are but maybe your presuppositions differ from mine. You seem to agree that God had a definite plan in place and it included Judas as the betrayer. This plan certainly included his forknowledge but I believe it wasn't God as merely a bystander seeing Judas' heart and thus including him in God's plan. No there was a definite plan of God and even the requirement that Judas' betrayal would be the fulfillment of scriptures. So just how does "free will" enter into the picture. Can God's plans be thwarted? I say no. Judas' betrayal was not coerced in any way, he was only doing what seemed right in his own eye. He was a devil from the beginning, the son of perdition. This tension must be resolved, and I don't think we should presume that God is going to let Judas off the hook just because he was part of God's definite plan.

Remember when Joseph confronted his brothers and comforted them with the truth that "what you meant for evil, God meant for good." From your deduction, this would absolutely let the brothers off the hook so to say. Since it was God's intention to bring good out of the heinous act of selling a brother off to slavery. There is a tension here that shouldn't be missed. While the brothers are most certainly guilty before God and their consciences, God was still moving in and amongst this great evil. Remember in Romans 8 that God has said that he is working all things for good for those who love him and are called according to His purpose. I believe this to be the most comforting and hope producing passage in all of scripture. See here for a better explanation of these glorious truths.

All this to say that I believe God is completely sovereign, even over the calamaties and evil that most assuredly will come. This does in no way negate human responsibility but is a great comfort that the world is not spinning out of control as often seems to be the case. My intention is not to derail this thread but I think your questions required an honest response. See the thread on "free will or God's will" for further debate.



mvic -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/7/2008 2:35:03 PM)

Thank you BerianAardvark, Liveloved and Justasheep for your full and well thought out answers. Unfortunately, when communicating via the internet we miss out on the facial expressions and body language that face to face communications provide. So you must think of me as a real obnoxious so and so for continually asking questions. Believe me - I'm not. I'm trying to understand - although perhaps it is better to just accept without understanding. Hence "Faith".

BerianAardvark: you say that Jesus' foreknowledge could have affected the outcome if Jesus had stopped Judas. This implies that Judas was destined to be the betrayer from birth. This being so, and Jesus knew it, why did Jesus choose him as a disciple instead of someone else? By choosing him he put him in the position to betray him.

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. Let's look at the facts:

The betrayal was prophesied long before Jesus was born.

Jesus knew He would be betrayed.

Jesus knew the betrayer would be Judas.

Yet he chose Judas as a disciple instead of Fred or Barney.

This very act of choosing Judas surely set in motion a chain of events that Judas could not get out of. As Justasheep put it: "He was a devil from the beginning, the son of perdition." If Jesus knew this, then why choose him as a disciple if it is not to set in motion a pre-determined plan.

I can't understand how you (BerianAardvark), Liveloved and Justasheep maintain that Judas did have a choice and he could NOT have betrayed Jesus.

Let's follow your argument for a bit: let's assume that Judas exercised his free will and did NOT betray Jesus. What then?

Would God have provided another betrayer instead from amongst the other disciples?

Do you see my difficulties in understanding here?

If it's any consolation; I put this question to a priest once. He too insisted that Judas DID have a choice and he could NOT have betrayed Jesus if he wanted to.

Maybe I'm too obtuse to understand it.



justasheep -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/7/2008 4:15:22 PM)

mvic,
quote:

I can't understand how you (BerianAardvark), Liveloved and Justasheep maintain that Judas did have a choice and he could NOT have betrayed Jesus.


I've never said as much, maybe I'm being misunderstood. I maintain that while Judas was responsible, it was also God's plan from the beginning as the scriptures are clear to point out. You have rightly understood the problem. No I don't think God had another desciple in mind as the betrayer. My proposal is our will isn't as free as you see it, otherwise God wouldn't be God in this circumstance nor in any other. Either He is sovereign or he isn't. That's why I directed you to the other thread, so as not to derail this one.



mvic -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/7/2008 4:55:40 PM)

Hi Justasheep,

Thanx for the link to the John Piper site. I think we're more in agreement than we realise. You're right : "our will isn't as free as (I) see it". He is Sovereign and He allows us free will within certain parameters. What these parameters are, I suppose He will tell us when we get to meet Him.

I also agree your premise that ultimately it was GOD who crucified Jesus. Others such as Judas, Pilate, the Pharisees, the Romans etc ... were willing (within the parameters of their individual free wills) "actors" in the overall plan that Jesus was to be crucified and then resurrected.



BerianAardvark -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/7/2008 7:42:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Thank you BerianAardvark, Liveloved and Justasheep for your full and well thought out answers. Unfortunately, when communicating via the internet we miss out on the facial expressions and body language that face to face communications provide. So you must think of me as a real obnoxious so and so for continually asking questions. Believe me - I'm not. I'm trying to understand - although perhaps it is better to just accept without understanding. Hence "Faith".


If I thought you were merely being obnoxious, I wouldn’t spend time replying to you.


quote:

BerianAardvark: you say that Jesus' foreknowledge could have affected the outcome if Jesus had stopped Judas. This implies that Judas was destined to be the betrayer from birth. This being so, and Jesus knew it, why did Jesus choose him as a disciple instead of someone else? By choosing him he put him in the position to betray him.


Let’s look at it a bit differently. Jesus and God know full well every sin I have ever done, as well as any that I may do in the future. Does the fact that They did not stop me from sinning in the past, nor will They stop me in the future mean that They have interfered with my right to chose? Or does it mean that They have respected my right to chose?

Can I offer in mitigation of my sin that They allowed me to get into a position to sin?

quote:

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. Let's look at the facts:

The betrayal was prophesied long before Jesus was born.

Jesus knew He would be betrayed.

Jesus knew the betrayer would be Judas.

Yet he chose Judas as a disciple instead of Fred or Barney.

This very act of choosing Judas surely set in motion a chain of events that Judas could not get out of. As Justasheep put it: "He was a devil from the beginning, the son of perdition." If Jesus knew this, then why choose him as a disciple if it is not to set in motion a pre-determined plan.


To be the disciple of a Rabbi was, in that day, an honor as much sought after as we would today seek to study under a noted scholar or leader in some field that interested us. Judas would have attached himself to Jesus of his own free will; to be invited into the twelve closest disciples was a signal honor, Jesus did do that.

But Judas could as easily betrayed Jesus as one of the faceless mass of followers (who are seldom mentioned, but assuredly followed Him as “wanna be” disciples followed other Rabbis).

Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. (Luke 10:1)


If he had then people would be saying that he did so because he was disgruntled since Jesus didn’t pick him as one of the twelve.

The only way to stop Judas from betraying Jesus would have been for someone to have killed Judas, or crippled him, or run him off...so much for allowing Judas to exercise his free will.

You seem to think that because Jesus didn’t make sure that Judas couldn’t betray Him, He is somehow complicit in that betrayal....all the while bewailing Judas’ lack of choice.

Jesus allowed Judas to make the choice, He didn’t chase him off, didn’t coerce him in any way size shape or form.
To make it so Judas could not be in a position where he could make the choice would be to interfere with Judas’ free choice.

Free choice means not influenced EITHER way, such influence would have been to use foreknowledge to remove the right to choose.


quote:

I can't understand how you (BerianAardvark), Liveloved and Justasheep maintain that Judas did have a choice and he could NOT have betrayed Jesus.

Let's follow your argument for a bit: let's assume that Judas exercised his free will and did NOT betray Jesus. What then?

Would God have provided another betrayer instead from amongst the other disciples?

Do you see my difficulties in understanding here?

If it's any consolation; I put this question to a priest once. He too insisted that Judas DID have a choice and he could NOT have betrayed Jesus if he wanted to.

Maybe I'm too obtuse to understand it.


You are confusing foreknowledge with coercion.

Judas was never FORCED to betray Jesus. To force the issue (either way) would have meant that Judas had no choice. If there was neither force nor coercion, what prevented Judas from making his own choice? Someone knowing about it in advance didn’t deter Judas’ in the slightest (after all Jesus TOLD Judas that He knew Judas would betray Him before Judas left to do it).

Tim



BerianAardvark -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/7/2008 7:46:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Hi Justasheep,

I also agree your premise that ultimately it was GOD who crucified Jesus. Others such as Judas, Pilate, the Pharisees, the Romans etc ... were willing (within the parameters of their individual free wills) "actors" in the overall plan that Jesus was to be crucified and then resurrected.


"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:17-18)

Jesus says as much Himself.

Tim



mvic -> RE: How great is thy mercy Lord? (7/8/2008 6:01:17 AM)

Thank you BerianAardvark (Tim) for your well considered replies above. I really appreciate that you took the time to answer every one of my points.

I believe I'm beginning to understand the difference between foreknowledge and free will.

God bless.

Vic M



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