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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/10/2008 10:10:52 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1856
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
Greetings,
quote:
Rom 4:15 "... for where no law is, there is no transgression." God did not hold people accountable for laws enacted after the fact.
That’s true, God in the beginning condemned the one who caused Adam to fall, which is the serpent, and is called the righteous judgment, not like it is today when the guilty one seems to always go free.
quote:
The "witness" law you reference did not come into being until mu.u.u.u.ch later. So it did not apply.
So you believe God is not the same yesterday, today and forever?? Because it did not apply does not mean it didn’t exist.
Further more if God; as you mentioned; did not hold people accountable for laws enacted after the fact and proceeded to say that God “most certainly did condemn” Adam;….. then by what justification did He condemn him by?
??
quote:
No other verse of reference denies or changes that. Though Paul also said "sin entered by one man" it has been explained how that can be. The fact that the explanation is rejected has no bearing upon the legitimacy of the explanation. It may be valid, but is possible. I am not obligated to provide many explanations if one will do the job. Well were not comparing secular reasoning by false witnesses to the Biblical understanding… for God does nothing without first revealing it to his prophets, otherwise it would be murder.
quote:
Paul tells us specifically "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." [I Tim 2:11-14]
but the woman being deceived was in the transgression has nothing to do with who committed the first sin, ......nor is your applying it to that... found anywhere else in the scriptures as a witness to that assumption…..
It has to do with Adam heeding the voice of his wife, and the voice of his wife was the serpent which = the deception…. as Tim just said…. but the woman “being deceived” (the Voice)….. was in the transgression, that meant “the deception” (listening to the voice) was the transgression and it still is to this day!!!
Romans 4 Read This Chapter
4:15
Because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
So if the woman was in transgression for listening to the wrong voice, then that is not telling us of the Law that is, or is to come, it is telling us of the Law “that was”, simply by Gods reactions to it…. dictates clearly of the Law.
....Paul knew his OT.... 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/11/2008 11:04:27 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
(theo) Rom 4:15 "... for where no law is, there is no transgression." God did not hold people accountable for laws enacted after the fact.
(LoyalGypsy) That’s true, God in the beginning condemned the one who caused Adam to fall, which is the serpent, and is called the righteous judgment, not like it is today when the guilty one seems to always go free.
(theo) The "witness" law you reference did not come into being until mu.u.u.u.ch later. So it did not apply.
(LoyalGypsy) So you believe God is not the same yesterday, today and forever?? Because it did not apply does not mean it didn’t exist.
(theo) "Where there is no law there is no transgression" MEANS that the law did not exist. There was no transgression BECAUSE there was no law prohibiting, or demanding. Not because there was no APPLICATION of law.
And it has nothing to do with God being the same yesterday, today, and forever. God changes all the time. The reference you quote is about Jesus, not the Father. And the Father changes his mind, changes his intent, changed his covenant with Abraham, changed his relation to his creation, and etc.
I think you may be thinking of a different reference wherein is stated "God changes not" but that was not a reference to God not changing per se, it is a reference to the fact that God is not fickle like men, changing with every blow of wind.
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(LoyalGypsy) Further more if God; as you mentioned; did not hold people accountable for laws enacted after the fact and proceeded to say that God “most certainly did condemn” Adam;….. then by what justification did He condemn him by???
Justiofied by the fact Adam ate of that about which he had been instructed to refrain from eating; i.,e., the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. About THAT there was indeed a law in the instruction God gave to Adam. The law that was not enacted until much later is related to "at the mouth of two or three witness much every word be established." That law has nothing to do with the problems developed in the garden of Eden.
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(theo) No other verse of reference denies or changes that. Though Paul also said "sin entered by one man" it has been explained how that can be. The fact that the explanation is rejected has no bearing upon the legitimacy of the explanation. It may be valid, but is possible. I am not obligated to provide many explanations if one will do the job.
(LoyalGypsy) Well were not comparing secular reasoning by false witnesses to the Biblical understanding… for God does nothing without first revealing it to his prophets, otherwise it would be murder.
(theo) I don't think so. God enacted many laws after the need became apparent. He did not first reveal it to his prophets, but when his prophet approached him with a need, he provided a law by which to deal with the problem.
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(theo) Paul tells us specifically "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." [I Tim 2:11-14]
(loyalGypsy) but the woman being deceived was in the transgression has nothing to do with who committed the first sin, ......nor is your applying it to that... found anywhere else in the scriptures as a witness to that assumption…..
(theo) "Adam was not deceived BUT..." proceeded your reference. And IT
is an application to who committed the first sin or "transgression." "Sin" IS "transgression of the law." [I John 3:4]
quote:
(LoyalGypsy) It has to do with Adam heeding the voice of his wife, and the voice of his wife was the serpent which = the deception…. as Tim just said…. but the woman “being deceived” (the Voice)….. was in the transgression, that meant “the deception” (listening to the voice) was the transgression and it still is to this day!!!
(theo) I think you are putting to and too together and getting two. You are reasoning approximately "since Eve was beguiled when she listened to the serpent, and Adam listened to his wife, therefore, Adam listened to the voice of the Serpent." But that is not a realistic developement of events. God instructed Adam. Adam passed on those instructions to Eve, possibly with embellishment. Eve quoted the instructoins to Satan. Satan contradicted the understanding of Eve, beguiling her. Adam listened to his wife contrary to his instruction from God. Eve being beguiled, was in the transgression. If Adam did nothing else, Eve still sinned. Since Adam followed her example by sinning himself, sin now entered the world in that the garden was no longer their refuge. They were cast out into the world. They were not cast out into the world after Eve sinned, but only after Adam joined in her sin. I think that becomes significant. By the time Adam joined her in her sin, they together exited their refuge from the world, and entered into the world outside that refuge. It is in THIS capacity that it is said "By one man sin entered the world."
quote:
(LoyalGypsy) Romans 4 Read This Chapter
4:15 Because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
So if the woman was in transgression for listening to the wrong voice, then that is not telling us of the Law that is, or is to come, it is telling us of the Law “that was”, simply by Gods reactions to it…. dictates clearly of the Law. ....Paul knew his OT....
(theo) I agree Paul knew his o.t. I am not as sure however that your conclusion reflects what Paul knew.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/11/2008 2:41:31 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11115
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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If Cain committed the first sin, then Adam and Eve were sinless. Why, then, does Scripture say that sin entered the world through Adam, and by Adam all have sinned? Why wouldn't it be through CAIN all sinned?
Also, does that mean that Seth was sinless?
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/11/2008 3:56:05 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1149
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
Of course childbearing will save women. It was through childbearing that the generations brought humanity to Mary's generation, through whom Messiah was born. THAT is the "salvation through childearing" scripture is referencing. Messiah brought about the salvation from sins for the whole world and all generations.
Why is it future tense, though? "The woman WILL BE saved through childbearing" when Jesus' birth was in the past at that point?
If looked at in the context of Genesis, this "salvation through childbearing" may not be refering to eturnal salvation, but the salvation of each woman from the persute evil, much like eating by the sweat of ones brow keeps a man out of trouble.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/11/2008 9:59:11 PM
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creationtalk
Posts: 608
Joined: 6/9/2005
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quote:
The women was found to be guilty in what the bible calls a witness,
if she did not eat; and Adam did; …..Then there would have been no witness to accuse her. (This is reiterated in John 8)
In like manner the command of God gave to Adam had no witness of sin, because there is no sin in God,
So the expression In the command given to Adam only expressed the ladder…. which was death,
……..God did not say in the day you sin and eat of the tree I commanded you not to eat of, you will surly die.
So there was no witness to Adams sin but the women because there is no sin in God, which was later reiterated as the Law of sin and death, ....because everything has to be established by 2 or 3 witnesses, therefore God could not condemn Adam because there was no witness as it is reiterated in John 8
So in actuality the first sinner was Cain, because Cain had the witness of his parent’s examples.
Whereby Adam did not have that witness in God ….because there is no sin in God.
HUH???
GOD does not require a witness to identify sin in a person--God knows our every thought and action before we do. That is why Jesus said that if we say in our hearts we hate our brother, we are guilty of murder. I may never act on the thought; there will never be a witness of the transgression, but in God's eyes I am as guilty as if I had carried out the act.
The requirement for witnesses was for use in a court of law, which did not exist and did not need to exist when there were only two people.
Sin is disobeying God whether or not the exact act is written down. For example, if I know in my heart that God has called me to go to the mission field, but instead I choose to support a missionary, I am sinning. I may be doing good in the sight of man, but if it is contrary to God's instruction, it is sinning.
Both Adam and Eve sinned well before Cain's actions. And Cain's act in killing Abel was not his first sin. His first sin was not following God's instructions for making an acceptable sacrifice.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/11/2008 10:05:32 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1202
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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Good post, creationtalk. I quite agree.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/12/2008 8:00:23 AM
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creationtalk
Posts: 608
Joined: 6/9/2005
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quote:
If looked at in the context of Genesis, this "salvation through childbearing" may not be refering to eturnal salvation, but the salvation of each woman from the persute evil, much like eating by the sweat of ones brow keeps a man out of trouble.
If looked at in the context of the whole Bible and Genesis, "salvation through childbearing" refers to the fact that Jesus was born of a woman.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/12/2008 9:16:21 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: creationtalk
quote:
If looked at in the context of Genesis, this "salvation through childbearing" may not be refering to eturnal salvation, but the salvation of each woman from the persute evil, much like eating by the sweat of ones brow keeps a man out of trouble.
If looked at in the context of the whole Bible and Genesis, "salvation through childbearing" refers to the fact that Jesus was born of a woman.
I think you are correct. If the text had related to Adam, "HE shall be saved through children" or "He shall be saved through begetting" I might differ, but I rather think it is a direct reference to Jesus being "made of a woman," kind of like Eve was made from a man. I think it came full circle.
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