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So say the human writers.

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Right, and my dead great grandmother still talks through her letters she left behind in a loud voice that reverberates through the room. Give me a break. Double speak will not get you anywhere. The Bible was written by humans just like every other religious text that you reject.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, if humans wrote it, then dozens of them did so consistently though seperated by hundreds of years, national boundaries, life experiences, languages, at risk to their own lives reporting things that could easily be dismissed had they not occurred, in a way that has endured through thousands of more years profoundly inspiring individuals, cultures, nations, and history.

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Words from which sprang modern Western civilization, hospitals, universities, scientific thought, schools of philosophy, as well as the transformation of billions of lives from every imaginable culture, even some two thousand years after they were written.

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If you think all that is the product of a few Semitic shepherds and wayward Jews, then by all means, keep believing that - I simply don't have that much faith.

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Your grandmothers words, however lovely, don't have, and never will have the universal impact of Scripture and never will have

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- your rejection of the truth of Scripture doesn't diminish the power of it in the least, and making that comparison is certainly more evidence of your ignorance than it is that Scripture is just another human derived text.

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As if the subsequent writers had no knowledge of the other texts, and the inconvenient fact that the books which did not jive were censored (e.g. gnostic gospels).

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Are we talking about the Qu'ran?

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So why do you reject the Qu'ran?

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At least I met my grandmother.

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It is no different than your rejection of the Qu'ran.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Only one way to find out.

Oh, believe me, I would love nothing more than for God to jump up and say, "Boo!" everytime an atheist voices doubts about His existence, but even if He wrote out that name on the desk in front of me I don't know that I would trust myself enough to deliver it.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
Oh, please, don't start giving us arguments out of the Da Vinci Code - it's utter nonsense.

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So why do you reject the Qu'ran?

I don't think a book written by a single individual which is obviously derived from Judaism and Christianity and promulgated by force quite compares to the whole of Scripture.

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And billions of people have met Christ.

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It is as I outlined above completely different. No Muslim claims to know the risen Muhammed, or to be transformed by the living Spirit of God.

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ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
What would your response be if I gave you your mother's name?

Only one way to find out.

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From: The shadowy D. H. (XXXXXXX@XXX.net)
Sent: Wed 7/09/08 1:05 PM
To: me

I ran across this search hit on my blog:

"[essentialsaltes' actual name]" mothers maiden name

Given how some online services use the mother's maiden name as a password change question, I thought you might want to know.

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I think God's trying to find out the answer! Which reminds me... I am quite sympathetic to the tenets of the Church of Google.

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Well, have you asked him any of hellohellohi's questions from the OP? Or something more direct, like "Did humans descend from non-human ancestors (possibly with some active tinkering by Yourself)?"

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The rejection of the gnostic gospels by the Council of Nicea is well known. For the record, I hated the Da Vinci Code.

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But Allah spoke directly to Mohammed. The Qu'ran proves it.

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No, they haven't. Let's at least try to be honest here.

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Mohammed claims as much inspiration as the gospel writers.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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I think God's trying to find out the answer! Which reminds me... I am quite sympathetic to the tenets of the Church of Google.

There you go - if I had given you your mother's maiden name you would simply have said I found it out otherwise.

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Well, have you asked him ... "Did humans descend from non-human ancestors (possibly with some active tinkering by Yourself)?"

I think He already answered this pretty clearly.

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That is not true. If you had answered the question correctly in your first post of 10-11 minutes after my question, I think I would have been quite mystified (having satisfied myself that a simple internet search was not going to provide the answer). But, really, the only way to know what my response would have been, would have been to provide the name.

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Christians appear to disagree on how directly he has answered this question in the Bible. Christians also disagree on what the physical evidence shows, in other words what God has 'said' in the material world. So have you asked this question? What answer did you receive?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think Scripture is clear that humans were humans from the beginning of the origin of humanity.

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Isn't that a tautology?

Do you think this is incompatible with common ancestry? (I don't think that is the case.)

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
So now you not only want God to answer trivial questions about your life, but to answer them on your time table. So you can be mystified. I can't figure out what difference this would make.

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So have you asked this question? What answer did you receive?

I think Scripture blah blah blah

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

Perhaps, so let me state it more clearly - there is no indication in Scripture that humans had non-human ancestors.

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Hhhi offered an interesting program of investigation of a conscious, omniscient deity. My telephone to the gods appears to be out of order. I've been told countless times in these forums that I am willfully or constitutionally deaf and blind to evidence of gods. So I am not a good principal investigator for this research program.

You say you talk to a deity on a daily basis. You would be an excellent PI for this research program. As you know, I am skeptical of the existence of gods, so I proposed a simple question that would provide me with some reassurance that this project could produce trustworthy results. I'm trying to rely on your relationship to provide some positive evidence of the existence of a conscious, omniscient being. If that's an unworthy parlor trick, then so be it. I may be deaf and blind, but I am not closed-minded. I am asking questions and getting no response.

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That is not how hhhi's research program operates.

Have you asked the question, "Did humans descend from non-human ancestors (possibly with some active tinkering by Yourself)?", of your deity?

What answer did you receive?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
You can talk to God as well. In fact I would highly recommend any non-believer with a sincere heart ask God to reveal Himself to them.

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Scripture is the ‘received’ answer; however anyone’s ‘research’ program works.

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ORIGINAL: hellohellohi

Since I already believe in God the Father and Co.

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I have done so. I doubt I could do so sincerely today, but at the time of which I'm thinking, I was utterly sincere.

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Can you give an example of a question he has answered during one of your daily talks?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
The 'gnostic gospels' as they were written long after the ones we have in Scripture - but I am not sure why an atheist would care either way - it's not as if you believe the gnostics either.

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It proves a single man and an army can advance any idea he wants; particularly if he borrows large portions of that idea from others.

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Yes, they have, I'm one of them, and I personally know hundreds of others, and have knowledge of thousands of others. One can't be a Christian without having encountered Christ in some manner.

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Interestingly, Mohammed never claimed to witness the events he wrote about, the gospels writers did.

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It is a bit of a hollow claim to state that the gospels are consistent when the inconsistent gospels were thrown out.

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Do American Muslims have a gun to their head?

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I can agree with "in some manner". That works just fine. What I grow tired of is people pretending that meeting Jesus is like meeting the President. It's not the same. It is a subjective and personal experience unlike meeting a living person face to face. While it may be as powerful, or even more powerful, as meeting a living person it is still not the same.

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Mohammed claims that Allah dictated the Qu'ran to him. It is as much of an eye witness as inspired writers of the OT and non-gospel writers in the NT.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

So you would say one witness is as reliable as two? Three? 500?