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[Poll]
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The Lake of Fire
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| The man or woman burns in a real, literal, physical fire for eternity. |
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| The fire is symbolic. |
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| The man or woman is destroyed by the fire. |
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Total Votes : 24
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(last vote on : 8/1/2008 9:28:17 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/14/2008 1:06:02 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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I know unsaved persons who believe like I do on abortion, so that in and of itself doesn't automatically nullify anything.
When did I dismiss any point in that story? I said that it is clearly before the second death. Am I wrong here? As for it being a parable, it's spoken just like a parable. It teaches a specific lesson like other parables.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/14/2008 2:05:49 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I know unsaved persons who believe like I do on abortion, so that in and of itself doesn't automatically nullify anything.
But they aren't considered heretics by Chrsitendom and they don't use the Bible to arrive at their position, now do they?
BTW, the Jehovah's Witnesses, using the same kind of scholarship and refusal to listen to elder brothers & sisters in the faith, concluded that Jesus isn't God, but a just another created being (Michael the archangel, to be specific) and brother to Satan.
I know, you don't care, your logic is good 'nuff to get by... 'Course, if you're wrong, you are telling folk they can party-hearty on earth and just undergo a teeny ZAP and it's all over. Imagine how they'll curse people throughout eternity for giving such bum advice.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/14/2008 2:21:00 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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You seem to assume a lot about me, Jimbo. Perhaps you're just trying to drive me away?
Since my spiritual rebirth, I have never denied that Jesus came in the flesh and that at the same time He is one hundred percent God.
Not being convinced by your attacking arguments and refusing to listen to my elders are very different things. I'm considering what you say, looking up scripture, and finding that I don't see an accord between the two.
When am I "telling folk they can party-hearty on earth"? My looking at Scripture without preconception is being confused with telling people to sin? Where did that even come from?
One more, I understand you don't believe what I see the Bible as saying is truth. The reverse is true as well. However, I'm not making light of your beliefs. I don't understand why, in a serious discussion, you have decided to be overly facetious about mine.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/14/2008 2:59:07 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
You seem to assume a lot about me, Jimbo. Perhaps you're just trying to drive me away?
I'm not assuming more than has been stated. You have a philosophy that has been historically rejected by Christendom as false but you don't care because it's your philosophy. What's to assume.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/14/2008 4:00:34 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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You assume I don't care about what others say, which is incorrect. I merely wanted something from scripture instead of hundreds of years of Christendom. In fact, for how long did the majority of Christendom pay to get their loved ones out of purgatory. I will know the true from the false by their fruits. The teachers which come from the spirit will exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. The ones who don't will probably lack some of these.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/14/2008 4:22:38 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
...In fact, for how long did the majority of Christendom pay to get their loved ones out of purgatory...
So should we scrap all the teachings of the Church Fathers because of error that was revealed over 500 years ago and start anew just like the Mormons and JWs and all the other mislead people that live in darkness?
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 1:01:12 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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You seem a bit obsessed with these other religions...
I don't know which "church fathers" you're talking about, to be honest, so I couldn't examine them for their fruits to tell you whether I believe their teachings should be considered or not.
Also, I asked earlier (maybe you didn't see it) where you got the idea that I was giving people leeway to "party hearty on earth". Would you let me know from where that came?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 9:24:22 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
You seem a bit obsessed with these other religions...
Just pointing out how error creeps into one's theology. If that's less important to you than having your own unique philosophy against the tide, then it's your call.
quote:
Also, I asked earlier (maybe you didn't see it) where you got the idea that I was giving people leeway to "party hearty on earth". Would you let me know from where that came?
Why, sir, that's the logical message of your position. You are essentially telling me if I'm lost that I don't have to worry my little head about eternal torment for a lifetime of trampling on the blood of Jesus and spitting in the face of God's grace; I can just do my own thing until I die and endure a brief burst of destructive energy.
That's one of the consequences of bad theology, it also affects others that hear it. Jesus indicated He doesn't overlook such stumbling stones placed in the way of others. But I'm sure you know that.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 10:02:34 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 201
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
...'Course, if you're wrong, you are telling folk they can party-hearty on earth and just undergo a teeny ZAP and it's all over. Imagine how they'll curse people throughout eternity for giving such bum advice.
Just a couple of thoughts on this (from an outsider). First, in the Mormon doctrine of heaven there are two lower kingdoms, the lowest of which--the telestial kingdom, being where the "aldulterers, liars, and whoremongers" will end up. Now say what you want about Mormonism's strange doctrines, but they tend to be pretty decent people, at least as decent as any other group, and they live a pretty clean lifestyle.
Why? The telestial kingdom sounds quite a bit better than annihilation, so why don't they all party-hearty?
Also, I can't think of any Christian who has said that they're Christian because they're scared of eternal damnation. Maybe lots are but when they're pressed on it they won't admit that's what it comes down to?
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 10:17:49 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
...Now say what you want about Mormonism's strange doctrines, but they tend to be pretty decent people, at least as decent as any other group, and they live a pretty clean lifestyle...
I appreciate your need to share what you know about Mormon doctrine to set this old codger straight, but I've known several Mormons up-close-and-personal and all I can say is that they have an excellent PR machine that spews forth some very nice family values, but it doesn't match reality. One of the heartiest partiers and whoremongers I've ever known was a thoroughgoing Mormon willing to spend hours debating the virtues of his cult. You may buy their hype, I may even have been willing to buy it when I was young and naive, but they are not what they claim.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 10:36:48 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 201
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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Here I could say, "Don't even get me started about my Christian neighbor..." but of course there are exceptions right? I grew up around them and know enough to know that, exceptions notwithstanding, they tend to be decent people, PR firm or not--comprable to any other group you might put out. And why wouldn't they all be like your friend?
Is the eternal lake of fire really what keeps you away from the party life, JimboFletch?
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 10:45:29 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Is the eternal lake of fire really what keeps you away from the party life, JimboFletch?
Unless you're projecting your position on me, where did you get such an idea? Surely it's not because I have a problem with giving the lost a different story than the Lord gave in the Gospels or that I find it disturbing some think God made people with mortal souls to be extinguished in the lake of fire and others with eternal souls to go to heaven.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 10:58:18 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Would it not be possible for God to extend someone's mortal soul into eternity if they were made righteous in Christ, or is God's power limited?
I don't give anyone a different story than the Lord gave in the Gospels. Believe me, I find the story to which you subscribe to be infinitely more disturbing than the one the Bible tells (though I actually realize that we BOTH get our views from the Bible... a fact you don't seem to be willing to acknowledge). I really wanted to discuss this without cynical remarks... why is this not possible?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 11:39:40 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Would it not be possible for God to extend someone's mortal soul into eternity if they were made righteous in Christ, or is God's power limited?
I don't give anyone a different story than the Lord gave in the Gospels. Believe me, I find the story to which you subscribe to be infinitely more disturbing than the one the Bible tells (though I actually realize that we BOTH get our views from the Bible... a fact you don't seem to be willing to acknowledge). I really wanted to discuss this without cynical remarks... why is this not possible?
If nothing else, it ought to give you serious pause to know who is in agreement with you on this.
I'm through rehashing something that believers far smarter than either of us have settled centuries before. Feel free to continue.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 11:53:22 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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The Bible doesn't tell me to take the side of whoever has the most supporters. I once did that, and I realize that isn't the way to go about things. I simply read the Bible and find out what it actually says, rather than what people want it to say.
I don't know who is smarter or who isn't. I am sure we will not agree on this, but there really isn't anything wrong with that. I don't know two Christians who agree one hundred percent on everything.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 12:12:59 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 201
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Is the eternal lake of fire really what keeps you away from the party life, JimboFletch?
Unless you're projecting your position on me, where did you get such an idea?
You wrote, "'Course, if you're wrong, you are telling folk they can party-hearty on earth and just undergo a teeny ZAP and it's all over." Like I wrote earlier, I've never heard a Christian actually say that the fear of eternal hell led them to their belief. Now you're asking where I got such an idea. So why did you write that?
quote:
Surely it's not because I have a problem with giving the lost a different story than the Lord gave in the Gospels or that I find it disturbing some think God made people with mortal souls to be extinguished in the lake of fire and others with eternal souls to go to heaven.
This is interesting, and definitely off-topic (sorry). You find that disturbing, but not that some eternal souls would go to heaven, and some eternal souls would go to hell? Why?
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 1:09:00 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 275
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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Here's my take on the "Lake of Fire"
Hades, Sheol, and Hell mean the same thing. They literally mean "abode/realm of the dead." (I think it's located in the center of the earth, but I guess that's debatable) We also know that this place is entirely different than the lake of fire because Re 20:14 says "And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Before Jesus' death all who died went to the realm of the dead including Abraham, Moses, and all the prophets. Jesus spoke of this place in Luke 16:19-31. We know that those in right standing with God were on side while those that weren't were on the other. These two sides were separated by a gulf which made it impossible to reach the other side.
Immediately after Jesus died on the cross, He descended to the "heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40), and revealed to OT saints that he was their Saviour. Right after that, the OT saints ascended from the ground and went to The New Jerusalem (Matthew 27:51-53). Those on the other side of the gulf are still there along with those that have rejected Christ and died. The opposite side is empty and will remain empty since those in the Church will ascend to Heaven after they die.
Those remaining in Hades (realm of the dead) will be cast into the lake of fire since there is no way exit Hades without Jesus as their Saviour. Unfortunately, they missed out to say the least.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 11:08:05 PM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Is the eternal lake of fire really what keeps you away from the party life, JimboFletch?
Unless you're projecting your position on me, where did you get such an idea?
You wrote, "'Course, if you're wrong, you are telling folk they can party-hearty on earth and just undergo a teeny ZAP and it's all over." Like I wrote earlier, I've never heard a Christian actually say that the fear of eternal hell led them to their belief. Now you're asking where I got such an idea. So why did you write that?
quote:
Surely it's not because I have a problem with giving the lost a different story than the Lord gave in the Gospels or that I find it disturbing some think God made people with mortal souls to be extinguished in the lake of fire and others with eternal souls to go to heaven.
This is interesting, and definitely off-topic (sorry). You find that disturbing, but not that some eternal souls would go to heaven, and some eternal souls would go to hell? Why?
Abraxas is your psuedonym and also the name of a demon.
When Christians get prideful and argue instead of edifying one another then the accuser gets a foothold.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 11:10:24 PM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
Status: offline
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McFatty,
Jimbofletch has a point but he doesn't need to be so pointed. Tell the truth in love.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/15/2008 11:13:25 PM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
Status: offline
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Jimbofletch,
McFatty is a brother in Christ by all accounts and doesn't deserve your ridicule, but iron should sharpen iron not try to break it. McFatty listen up.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/16/2008 1:43:07 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 201
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
Abraxas is your psuedonym and also the name of a demon.
When Christians get prideful and argue instead of edifying one another then the accuser gets a foothold.
Not exactly a demon, it symbolizes something more complex than that. It's a decidedly non-Christian symbolism, coupling Good and Evil, so I won't elaborate. Besides, I picked it because it was the album playing when I registered! (classic Santana!)
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/16/2008 9:56:07 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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I remember the film "Abraxas" with Jesse Ventura and James Belushi!
Anyhow,
Dan, I'm listening. I wouldn't have brought anything to this board if I didn't want to hear the reasons for beliefs other than my own. So far I haven't heard much of that, though.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/16/2008 5:02:42 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 275
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
Jimbofletch,
McFatty is a brother in Christ by all accounts and doesn't deserve your ridicule, but iron should sharpen iron not try to break it.
I agree with this statement. I have noticed Jimbo likes the ad hominem attack as well as the appeal to ridicule fallacies. Nothing against him, it's just an observation.
Anyway, back to the discussion. I was wondering if anyone agrees or disagrees with my earlier post (#42).
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/16/2008 5:05:13 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5842
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
I agree with this statement. I have noticed Jimbo likes the ad hominem attack as well as the appeal to ridicule fallacies. Nothing against him, it's just an observation.
Anyway, back to the discussion. I was wondering if anyone agrees or disagrees with my earlier post (#42).
I was going to, but I'm such an old, senile imbecile it wouldn't be of any value to any of you young, brilliant theologists.
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