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[Poll]
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The Lake of Fire
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| The man or woman burns in a real, literal, physical fire for eternity. |
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| The fire is symbolic. |
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| The man or woman is destroyed by the fire. |
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Total Votes : 24
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(last vote on : 8/1/2008 9:28:17 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/16/2008 6:05:31 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
Here's my take on the "Lake of Fire"
Hades, Sheol, and Hell mean the same thing. They literally mean "abode/realm of the dead." (I think it's located in the center of the earth, but I guess that's debatable) We also know that this place is entirely different than the lake of fire because Re 20:14 says "And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Before Jesus' death all who died went to the realm of the dead including Abraham, Moses, and all the prophets. Jesus spoke of this place in Luke 16:19-31. We know that those in right standing with God were on side while those that weren't were on the other. These two sides were separated by a gulf which made it impossible to reach the other side.
Immediately after Jesus died on the cross, He descended to the "heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40), and revealed to OT saints that he was their Saviour. Right after that, the OT saints ascended from the ground and went to The New Jerusalem (Matthew 27:51-53). Those on the other side of the gulf are still there along with those that have rejected Christ and died. The opposite side is empty and will remain empty since those in the Church will ascend to Heaven after they die.
Those remaining in Hades (realm of the dead) will be cast into the lake of fire since there is no way exit Hades without Jesus as their Saviour. Unfortunately, they missed out to say the least.
The only thing with which I disagree is that the Revelation says that Hades will be emptied for the judgment...
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/16/2008 6:37:09 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 277
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
Here's my take on the "Lake of Fire"
Hades, Sheol, and Hell mean the same thing. They literally mean "abode/realm of the dead." (I think it's located in the center of the earth, but I guess that's debatable) We also know that this place is entirely different than the lake of fire because Re 20:14 says "And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Before Jesus' death all who died went to the realm of the dead including Abraham, Moses, and all the prophets. Jesus spoke of this place in Luke 16:19-31. We know that those in right standing with God were on side while those that weren't were on the other. These two sides were separated by a gulf which made it impossible to reach the other side.
Immediately after Jesus died on the cross, He descended to the "heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40), and revealed to OT saints that he was their Saviour. Right after that, the OT saints ascended from the ground and went to The New Jerusalem (Matthew 27:51-53). Those on the other side of the gulf are still there along with those that have rejected Christ and died. The opposite side is empty and will remain empty since those in the Church will ascend to Heaven after they die.
Those remaining in Hades (realm of the dead) will be cast into the lake of fire since there is no way exit Hades without Jesus as their Saviour. Unfortunately, they missed out to say the least.
The only thing with which I disagree is that the Revelation says that Hades will be emptied for the judgment...
Can I ask for the specific reference? I am not agreeing or disagreeing with your statement, but wasn't Hades emptied (at least partly) in Matthew 27:51-53? I am not sure if it will be emptied any further, but it is an interesting point.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/16/2008 6:45:58 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Sure.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:13-15
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 8:17:13 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
I agree with this statement. I have noticed Jimbo likes the ad hominem attack as well as the appeal to ridicule fallacies. Nothing against him, it's just an observation.
Anyway, back to the discussion. I was wondering if anyone agrees or disagrees with my earlier post (#42).
I was going to, but I'm such an old, senile imbecile it wouldn't be of any value to any of you young, brilliant theologists.
You are brilliant!!! No taunting. I would like you to see this with regard to this debate.
1 Peter 3 (New American Standard Bible)
13(W)Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?
14But even if you should (X)suffer for the sake of righteousness, (Y)you are blessed (Z)AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
15but [a]sanctify (AA)Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready (AB)to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the (AC)hope that is in you, yet (AD)with gentleness and (AE)reverence;
16and keep a (AF)good conscience so that in the thing in which (AG)you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.
17For (AH)it is better, (AI)if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
18For (AJ)Christ also died for sins (AK)once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might (AL)bring us to God, having been put to death (AM)in the flesh, but made alive (AN)in the spirit;
19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20who once were disobedient, when the (AO)patience of God (AP)kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of (AQ)the ark, in which a few, that is, (AR)eight (AS)persons, were brought safely through the water.
21(AT)Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--(AU)not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a (AV)good conscience--through (AW)the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22(AX)who is at the right hand of God, (AY)having gone into heaven, (AZ)after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
1 Peter 3:19 is perhaps the most controversial topic in theology.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 8:22:28 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Sure.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:13-15
So if the damned will just be anhilated without suffering, why did these OT spirits become imprisoned, and not just anhilated. I must say that I agree with Jimbofletch that your argument is dangerous, because people will think they have nothing to suffer for. Just poof.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 8:31:26 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
Status: offline
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Let me posit this. Assume you only sinned once in your life. In fact you would even blush at the life of Job for his "brazen" sin. Your sin was this: One day your Mother asks you if she looks fat in this dress. You reply no, when in fact she is quite heavy and does look fat. The rest of your life you do not sin, but you never repent of your sin and you are damned. When you die, who have you sinned against? God alone, of course. Your sin is ever before eternal God. Your sin is eternal because God is eternal. How can your debt be repaid? Only by an eternal payment. You then, must be placed into the lake of fire, forever. Any lesser payment would be unjust. God is not unjust. I know God, he is always fair. Jesus is the Third Person of the Trinity of God. He is eternal, and so His payment is enough for all sin of all who would be saved.
To all those watching, turn from your sin or you will burn in hell. This may be your last warning.
< Message edited by Dan1138 -- 7/17/2008 8:40:37 AM >
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 8:57:58 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 198
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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Mother (crying hysterically): Please God! He only had my feelings in mind! It was one small untruth! He spent his life helping inner-city youth, and visiting children's hospitals! I forgive him, couldn't you?
God: Sorry, I'm a perfectly just God, and that wouldn't be just would it?
Mother: But--eternal hell from one small lie back when he was 11????
God: That's right. I'm eternal, remember, so the punishment must be eternal.
Mother: What does that even mean?!
God: It's, um, well that's why the punishment must be eternal...'cause I'm eternal....
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 9:04:23 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5739
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Mother (crying hysterically)....
Know what? There's not a solitary individual worthy of eternal life - including you or me. We no more deserve nor can attain eternal life than a block of granite. I think it is the height of false arrogance to ridicule God for not being made in your own image rather than the way it is.
Have your fun, make up your jabs at God, but, fortunately, you are not Him - and neither am I.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 9:10:35 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 198
Joined: 4/8/2008
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Now to take the tongue out of my cheek, I see here the second time someone has argued against annhilation because annhilation wouldn't provide enough "threat" to stop people from being bad.
As I said before, there are plenty of decent Mormon folks--why are there ANY? And seriously Dan, is that why you're good? Is that why you're Christian? Fear of eternal torture? Jimbo took offense when I asked but really isn't that what you're implying?
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 9:14:20 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 198
Joined: 4/8/2008
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I'm not ridiculing God, JimboFletch. I don't see God anywhere in that horribly evil analogy Dan gave. Seriously, forget whether we deserve "eternal life"--getting sent to a lake of fire forever for telling one small untruth (the old gray-area dilemma, no less)? The analogy was over the top.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 9:17:13 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5739
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Now to take the tongue out of my cheek, I see here the second time someone has argued against annhilation because annhilation wouldn't provide enough "threat" to stop people from being bad.
If it will set your mind to rest, the primary and only valid reason that believers disagree with annhilation is because annhilation is not scriptural and is the product of cults that futher pervert the Gospel and even the deity of Christ.
That it holds out a perverted kind of false hope is only a side issue.
Again, annhilation is argued against primarily because it is, simply, wrong doctrine invented by heretics that also defame Christ.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 9:27:05 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 198
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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So it's not a valid reason, and yet it's come up twice already on this small thread.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 9:29:59 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5739
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
So it's not a valid reason, and yet it's come up twice already on this small thread.
Valid? I dunno, but false hope, even of the perverted kind, may be worth mentioning in the course of 60 some-odd posts.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 9:39:50 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 198
Joined: 4/8/2008
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You were the only who said it wasn't valid, in post 61. Anyway as I've said, the Mormon destination for really, really bad people--the telestial kingdom--is purportedly better than this world here. For that and other reasons I don't think there's any substance to the rather popular but not actually valid argument that the doctrine of annhilation will give anyone a false sense of hope, and a green light to party-hearty in this life. Whew, that was a mouthful!
No more from me here. Sorry if you found my parody offensive. Seriously I don't see God preparing an eternal lake of fire for that poor dude who only wanted to spare his chubby mother's feelings.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 9:46:53 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5739
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
You were the only who said it wasn't valid, in post 61. Anyway as I've said, the Mormon destination for really, really bad people...
FWIW, I'm not remotely interested in the Mormon cult's take on the afterlife. They are so far from the basics of the Bible and Christendom that they aren't even Christian.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 9:55:00 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 198
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
FWIW, I'm not remotely interested in the Mormon cult's take on the afterlife. They are so far from the basics of the Bible and Christendom that they aren't even Christian.
But that wasn't really the point now, was it?
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 9:58:22 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 198
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
I don't see God anywhere in that horribly evil analogy Dan gave.
In truth, his analogy was entirely correct. The fact that you think it is evil displays your perceptions of fair and unfair. God does not have the same perceptions you do. You are willing to overlook a "small" thing when sin is sin; there is no "small" one. God will overlook what to you is a "huge" one for those who accept Him and are repentant.
Would you say then that I'm more forgiving than God? What does it mean for forgiveness to be a virtue?
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 11:45:09 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 198
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
I would not. I would say that you accept sin without the need for repentance...
You would be wrong. I don't think the guy in our admittedly far-fetched scenario sinned by withholding the fact of his poor mother's chubbiness. We could say that by withholding it he was honoring his mother. I would say that handling nuance is a virtue. I would also say that the inability to handle nuance in this case is adressed in the parable of the talents.
quote:
, and I would say that God does not.
Since a person can "repent" of his or her sins as a Muslim or Hindu or Mormon, I think we must be more clear on what need you believe there is. What if the guy did feel bad for what he said, and apologized to his mother, but was an atheist? I suspect you would say that God would not forgive him. So perhaps by "repent" you mean "believe a certain thing and repent"
quote:
Forgiveness is a virtue because we are imperfect. We need to forgive others because we are no better.
I believe the virtue of forgiveness goes far deeper than that. So be it. I know I've spun this discussion way off topic and I apologize. I am done.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 4:46:58 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 338
Joined: 6/12/2008
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To be honest, I'm not entirely sure if eternity for an unsaved person is literally burning in a fire or some other type of "burning". I do know that it means separation from God and none of us can even conceive of what that would be like. But...whoa..some of you people scare me! Or maybe I should say "woe!"
First of all, there have been many, many people that have turned to God out of fear of an eternity in hell. Granted, it may not be the best reason to accept the gift of salvation, but God's big enough to start with that. So while some may think it doesn't matter, it could be the seed that grows into eternal salvation for someone.
Secondly, I cannot believe a Christian would believe an unsaved person just ceases to exist upon death.
Next, someone brought up the point of the reason for hell's existance. (Forgive me...I've just read through all three pages of this, very quickly, so it's all muddled together right now.) Hell was created for the devil and his angels...not human beings. It is God's will that all come to repentance. However, those that "trample on blood of Jesus and spit in the face of God's grace" (great line, Jimbo!!!) will have made the same choice the devil did...to try to usurp God's authority. Therefore, they will receive the same fate as the devil.
Lastly, I don't see where Jimbo was ridiculing anyone. One thing I've seen since I've been around here is this: you can always see the point when one starts to recognize they are incorrect in their beliefs or opinions...when things start to get a little hot under the collar. It's precisely at that point that most people start accusing other people of ridiculing them and begin throwing personal attacks at the person that has pointed out the Truth to them. A sure sign of an immaturity and instability.
That's enough for now!
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 5:10:07 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
Secondly, I cannot believe a Christian would believe an unsaved person just ceases to exist upon death.
While you may think I'm immature and unstable for preferring not to be associated in print with heretics, I must disagree. That's fine, though. As for this statement, what makes you so you "cannot believe" that? Just curious.
I do not believe an unsaved person ceases to exist upon death. I believe they are destroyed in the lake of fire after the judgment. That's what the Bible says.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 5:12:21 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 277
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Sure.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:13-15
I think verse 15 is important. It says "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Question: Who will be cast into the lake of fire?
Answer: Anyone not found in the book of life.
Agree?
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/17/2008 5:13:35 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Beanteaser,
Most certainly.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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