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The Lake of Fire
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Total Votes : 25
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(last vote on : 9/15/2008 6:51:49 PM)
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/24/2008 10:10:00 AM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 423
Joined: 6/12/2008
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There are a lot of people that have a whole lot more knowledge out there than I do. That's aside from the many good books that help us dig deeper into the Word of God.
So, may I suggest, seek out the opinion of godly, learned men. One sure sign of spiritual maturity is having a teachable spirit and being willing to learn and willing to admit when one has been under a false assumption. There is much wisdom to be found in so many: Alistair Begg (one of my favorite teachers), Chuck Swindoll, J. Vernon McGee, Chuck Colson, Erwin Lutzer, Ravi Zacharias, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah...the list could go on and on.
We can be immature and prideful and decide we know all there is to know. Or we can honestly and humbly seek to grow in God's Word and knowledge. Which attitude will He honor?
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/24/2008 10:32:13 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
There are a lot of people that have a whole lot more knowledge out there than I do. That's aside from the many good books that help us dig deeper into the Word of God.
So, may I suggest, seek out the opinion of godly, learned men. One sure sign of spiritual maturity is having a teachable spirit and being willing to learn and willing to admit when one has been under a false assumption. There is much wisdom to be found in so many: Alistair Begg (one of my favorite teachers), Chuck Swindoll, J. Vernon McGee, Chuck Colson, Erwin Lutzer, Ravi Zacharias, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah...the list could go on and on.
We can be immature and prideful and decide we know all there is to know. Or we can honestly and humbly seek to grow in God's Word and knowledge. Which attitude will He honor?
Peter, do you really believe that someone who disagrees with you is being immature and prideful? If I taught you that God said there is no such thing as an elephant, would you be prideful for not listening to the teaching? Would you not have a teachable spirit and not be willing to admit that you'd been under a false assumption. You're indirectly accusing me of all of these things over a disagreement, no? Is that really the right thing to do?
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/24/2008 10:35:11 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
It seems these verses only back up eternal conscious torment if you already believe that they must.
To me, it seems that one can only hold your belief if one starts with the idea that maybe the Bible does not teach unending suffering for unbelievers and then tries to find support for that belief.
How do you get that? I started with the idea that I'm going to read the Bible without preconceptions and see what it really says. I found that unless you have that preconception, you can't get unending suffering out of the Bible's words. So your assumption that I tried to find support for something I preconceived to exist, whether you believe me or not, is wrong. That's what it seems others are doing.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/24/2008 2:39:38 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 351
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
It seems these verses only back up eternal conscious torment if you already believe that they must.
To me, it seems that one can only hold your belief if one starts with the idea that maybe the Bible does not teach unending suffering for unbelievers and then tries to find support for that belief.
How do you get that? I started with the idea that I'm going to read the Bible without preconceptions and see what it really says. I found that unless you have that preconception, you can't get unending suffering out of the Bible's words. So your assumption that I tried to find support for something I preconceived to exist, whether you believe me or not, is wrong. That's what it seems others are doing.
I did not say that this is what you did to arrive at your conclusion. I was just saying that to me this seemed like the only way one could arrive at the belief of annihilation. I basically was just stating the reverse of what you had already stated quote:
It seems these verses only back up eternal conscious torment if you already believe that they must. I too have studied this and other areas (such as eternal versus conditional security) while trying not to let preconceptions have an affect. What I found apparently is the opposite of what you found.
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http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/24/2008 2:56:46 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Fair enough.
By the way, I dig the signature. A great website!
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/24/2008 10:30:17 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 351
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Fair enough.
By the way, I dig the signature. A great website!
Thanks. My hope was that the name of the site would attract interest to find out what it was about. The site did this purposely for that reason. Did you see enough of the site to know what the name of the site means?
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http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/25/2008 11:31:04 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 245
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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I suppose if I end up being sent to an eternal lake of fire, at least one good thing in it all would be to be "in the know" about some the bigger picture things we all wonder/debate about. I wonder if God would be kind enough to answer a few of our questions, or grant us a better understanding of the grand scheme of things.
If I only get one question, it would have to be "If you knew I would end up in Hell forever, why did you create me?"
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/27/2008 11:38:27 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Yes but we're supposed to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling. I don't think we ought to cause fear in others.
Jude
22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
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My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/27/2008 11:42:36 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I suppose if I end up being sent to an eternal lake of fire, at least one good thing in it all would be to be "in the know" about some the bigger picture things we all wonder/debate about. I wonder if God would be kind enough to answer a few of our questions, or grant us a better understanding of the grand scheme of things.
If I only get one question, it would have to be "If you knew I would end up in Hell forever, why did you create me?"
Pauls' Letter to the Romans and to you
9One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
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My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/28/2008 10:21:39 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 245
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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Because he doesn't have a better answer?
ETA: Verse 21 is an interesting ethical question, and I don't think the answer is obviously 'no'. Unless it really is just clay, but if we drop the analogy and remember that we're talking about humans, Humans are sentient beings capable of a complex array of feelings and emotions. What does it mean when some organism feels pain, or joy, or fear?
So what the sentient clay is doing, in this instance, is asking why the potter brought into existence a vessel capable of feeling fear, pain, joy, love, even though he knew that eventually the vessel would be tossed into a kiln where it would remain, eternally roasting in the flames (Where we can presume it would feel only the worst of his feelings?
Now I know that if God is all-powerful then whatever he says goes, plain and simple. All I could do is pose the question but he's fully in control. But the ethical question remains. After all, who would argue that Might determines Morality?
< Message edited by abraxas -- 7/28/2008 10:44:20 AM >
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/28/2008 10:29:31 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I suppose if I end up being sent to an eternal lake of fire, at least one good thing in it all would be to be "in the know" about some the bigger picture things we all wonder/debate about. I wonder if God would be kind enough to answer a few of our questions, or grant us a better understanding of the grand scheme of things.
If I only get one question, it would have to be "If you knew I would end up in Hell forever, why did you create me?"
If you have rejected His best offer of forgiveness and redemption as mindless drivel, why do you feel God owes you a hearing on your petty concerns?
How does you exercising your free will make Him culpable for your choice? What a childish whiner!
BTW, if you have enough sense not to personally attack as unfair and point your mortal finger in the face of a Supreme Court Justice about to pronounce sentence on you, I seriously doubt you'll have the nerve to do so to Almighty God, creator and sustainer of the universe. You may think you have enough chutzpah to do so, but I sincerely doubt it.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/28/2008 10:53:20 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 245
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If you have rejected His best offer of forgiveness and redemption as mindless drivel, why do you feel God owes you a hearing on your petty concerns?
Mindless drivel? How so? I don't think that question is a petty concern at all, I think it's a powerful question and I'd like to hear answer for it.
quote:
How does you exercising your free will make Him culpable for your choice? What a childish whiner!
You're missing the point. A God with perfect knowledge of the future created a being capable of suffering, KNOWING that the being would suffer eternally. Why did the God choose to create that being? What level of free will is at work in that being is wholly irrelevant here.
quote:
BTW, if you have enough sense not to personally attack as unfair and point your mortal finger in the face of a Supreme Court Justice about to pronounce sentence on you, I seriously doubt you'll have the nerve to do so to Almighty God, creator and sustainer of the universe. You may think you have enough chutzpah to do so, but I sincerely doubt it.
What do I have to lose? 
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/30/2008 10:18:17 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 928
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I suppose if I end up being sent to an eternal lake of fire, at least one good thing in it all would be to be "in the know" about some the bigger picture things we all wonder/debate about. I wonder if God would be kind enough to answer a few of our questions, or grant us a better understanding of the grand scheme of things.
If I only get one question, it would have to be "If you knew I would end up in Hell forever, why did you create me?"
lets back up a minute... every single person was destined to go to hell. but God saved some in order to show his love and mercy... i was going to go there, but Jesus saved me and now i have escaped Hell and the Lake of Fire.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/30/2008 10:59:26 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 245
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
lets back up a minute... every single person was destined to go to hell. but God saved some in order to show his love and mercy...
Back up even further--was that before or after God created them out of nothing? Do you see what I'm saying? If God willed a being into existence that otherwise wouldn't exist, But He KNEW with his perfect foreknowledge that that being was going to spend all of eternity in absolute torment............why did He will that being into existence?
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/30/2008 11:38:34 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 928
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
lets back up a minute... every single person was destined to go to hell. but God saved some in order to show his love and mercy...
Back up even further--was that before or after God created them out of nothing? Do you see what I'm saying? If God willed a being into existence that otherwise wouldn't exist, But He KNEW with his perfect foreknowledge that that being was going to spend all of eternity in absolute torment............why did He will that being into existence?
YES its a terrible thing to think about such things,, but since it is set up that way, we must find out if we can escape it. AND WE CAN! if you hear the Lord Jesus Christ calling out to you, then answer that call and you will escape. God does not call out everyone. Since you know this, what is stopping you from the escape? Why wont you say yes to God and to Jesus who paid the price. RIGHT NOW. right now. ((we dont know all why God does certain things or why he would pick me or you to escape, but if he makes you that offer, TAKE IT!!))
OK picture this - would you be willing to hold your finger in a burning flame for 10 minutes if you could have ANYTHING in this world that you wanted? millions of dollars, fame, whatever, would you do it? imagine how hot that flame is for even one minute. yet, people take this chance every day - ... for stupid stuff, people take the chance of obtaining things on this earth, when in the end, they will be cast body and soul into the LAKE OF FIRE. if you dont think you can stand one minute of a fire burning just your pinkie, imagine how it will feel for your whole self to be burning in hell for ETERNITY!!!
escape it now! turn to Jesus. he will save you.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/30/2008 11:48:51 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 245
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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I suppose there's no answer to that question. I'm going to call it the million-dollar-moral-question. Does God in this scenario offer a moral justification for creating creatures unto eternal torment, or does he say "Who are YOU to question ME?" And of course, if He takes that route, there's little I can do about it, but it must be pointed out that there still has been no justification for -- I repeat again and it has to be the most heinous act imaginable -- creating a sentient being out of nothing KNOWING that that being will suffer eternal conscious torment.
I mean, really God, why not NOT create that being????
I'm sorry, IMA_CHRISTIAN but your posts have an uncomfortable flavor of "looking out for number one", and I just don't look at things that way, or at least try not to, when I examine things like this.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/30/2008 11:53:20 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 928
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
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unfortunately, now you are judging God.. you have now put the CReator of the universe on the seat where the criminal sits and now you are judging Him .. you say he is not fair.. you are judging God. We cannot do that.
God set up the system according to how he sees fit. we are just supposed to go along with it. God has his reasons. We will understand it one day if we go to heaven.
if you reject God you will never ever get to know why God does thigns the way he does.
all you can do is cry out for mercy.
Read the Book of Job chapters 39 and 40... "Where were you when God laid the foundations of the world" etc.
for us to question God is like a little tiny ant or beetle saying to a human "its not fair that you get to do this and that." What if that little tiny ant or beetle told you to do something.. would you do it.. or would you laugh at it's insolence?
PS... I just saw your little note to me... sorry if i came across that way. i should ask God to help me with my failures,,, however, I do want you to escape hell..and i had many of the same questions you have ,, but God showed me as I keep walking with Him.. the answers to many things.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/30/2008 1:00:02 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 245
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
unfortunately, now you are judging God.. you have now put the CReator of the universe on the seat where the criminal sits and now you are judging Him .. you say he is not fair.. you are judging God. We cannot do that.
Firstly I want to say thank you for your concern. Now as for judging God, well, if the above scenario actually turns out to be correct, then yes, I would ask God that question. If man was created in God's image then I suppose we possess sufficient autonomy and moral faculties to do that. Like I said, he's got all the cards power-wise, but we know God can only do all things that are possible, and if there is an objective moral standard, then God cannot change that standard arbitrarily--therefore, he'll either explain my question in terms of that objective moral standard, or he'll accuse me of judging him and ask me who do I think I am.
However, at this stage in the game neither I, nor you, nor anyone can prove this version of God over that one, or the other one. So I'm examining God-claims, and am judging God as much here as if I were asking where the 72 virgins came from, and how they felt about being "given" to a man in Muslim paradise.
I hope that made sense.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/30/2008 1:06:00 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 928
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
unfortunately, now you are judging God.. you have now put the CReator of the universe on the seat where the criminal sits and now you are judging Him .. you say he is not fair.. you are judging God. We cannot do that.
Firstly I want to say thank you for your concern. Now as for judging God, well, if the above scenario actually turns out to be correct, then yes, I would ask God that question. If man was created in God's image then I suppose we possess sufficient autonomy and moral faculties to do that. Like I said, he's got all the cards power-wise, but we know God can only do all things that are possible, and if there is an objective moral standard, then God cannot change that standard arbitrarily--therefore, he'll either explain my question in terms of that objective moral standard, or he'll accuse me of judging him and ask me who do I think I am.
However, at this stage in the game neither I, nor you, nor anyone can prove this version of God over that one, or the other one. So I'm examining God-claims, and am judging God as much here as if I were asking where the 72 virgins came from, and how they felt about being "given" to a man in Muslim paradise.
I hope that made sense.
hi - well at least you know the God I'm talking about has "all the cards" which is another way of saying "God is in control & sovereign". We know that this God is the ONLY God, by many ways. For one, when a person receives Jesus as their Savior and Lord, we then have the ability to know what He desires, what some of his attributes are, etc. First we have the Christian Bible. Thats the #1 place to find out about God.. Then - and this is the good part - God lives inside me and confirms what the Bible says is true.. its something that is a spiritual revelation to me. But basically the #1 proof is the bible. its all spiritually revealed. Thats why it makes sense to me and not an atheist for example. The atheist does not believe in God and so therefore, he cannot understand the things of God... God has not revealed it to them.
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