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RE: We need to be civilized - 7/13/2008 1:02:49 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 89
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It's hard to imagine a 'scientist' acting less civilized than PZ.
He has himself encouraged the use of physical violence against IDists and creationists.
Here's a pertinent question - was Christ acting civilized when he made a whip and started kicking butt, overturning tables etc.?
Civilized is a big subjective word. What does it really mean?
Ex. Were our fathers being civilized when they took 'up arms against a sea of troubles' called the Nazi war machine?
A lot of potential discussion on the idea of civility.
However I don't think PZ should not be subjected to death threats. Especially not from professing Christians.
Christ never threatened to kill anyone even when confronted with the most vile hypocrisy and murderous intent. He highly discouraged not only the use of the sword but all selfish anger. Yet there is such a thing as righteous anger and PZ certainly deserves it all.
"Do not return evil for evil" - "Vengeance is mine says the Lord."
That's because we are not omniscient and do not know or understand all the variables involved - thus are prone to error ourselves in our judgments.
_____________________________
"The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order." Sir F. Hoyle
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RE: We need to be civilized - 7/13/2008 1:57:36 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
Here's a pertinent question - was Christ acting civilized when he made a whip and started kicking butt, overturning tables etc.?
There is no indication in the text that he "kicked butt" or used the whip on any humans. He used it, as was common, to move animals out of their pens, and he opened the bird cages and overturned the moneychangers tables. There is no indication that he punched any moneychanger in the jaw or turned the whip onto a guard.
It may not have been exactly "civilized" but it only threatened property, not human lives.
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RE: We need to be civilized - 7/13/2008 2:55:04 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 89
Joined: 7/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
Here's a pertinent question - was Christ acting civilized when he made a whip and started kicking butt, overturning tables etc.?
There is no indication in the text that he "kicked butt" or used the whip on any humans. He used it, as was common, to move animals out of their pens, and he opened the bird cages and overturned the moneychangers tables. There is no indication that he punched any moneychanger in the jaw or turned the whip onto a guard.
It may not have been exactly "civilized" but it only threatened property, not human lives.
I never said he did. 'Kicking butt' is often used symbolically. It it often used to indicated superiority.
As in this rock musicians saying things like "this amp kicks butt" etc. so be careful you don't misinterpret common expressions.
If a kid comes to you and says, 'Man Jesus really kicks butt' what do you think he means? That he literally goes around kicking people? Of course not!
Maybe he did actually kick a butt or two and maybe he didn't - it doesn't give details. The whip of rushes was certainly used for driving out the animals.
Just as you say there is no indication he actually whipped someone or punched someone, there is also no indication he didn't.
I personally doubt he actually hit anyone except maybe a slap with the whip which was apparently made of rushes - who knows.
My point is that Christ was no passive, gutless wimp in the face of evil and so neither should we be. Thus our modern idea of civil is not necessarily his, and so we need to be cautious on what we call civilized or not.
Who gave the law of the 39 stripes? Is the giver of the law uncivilized for executing his own sanctions of that law?
That is, in sum, my point. The example of Christ.
_____________________________
"The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order." Sir F. Hoyle
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RE: We need to be civilized - 7/13/2008 3:42:43 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
I never said he did. 'Kicking butt' is often used symbolically. It it often used to indicated superiority.
In that case I still think it is inappropriate to use of Jesus. He did not go about flaunting superiority.
quote:
My point is that Christ was no passive, gutless wimp in the face of evil and so neither should we be.
Yes, people often mistake so-called "passive resistance" for "passivity"--putting the emphasis on "passive". The emphasis belongs on "resistance" and is better referred to as "peaceful resistance" or "non-violent resistance."
I like "peaceful resistance" best, as it points out that it is not just a matter of avoiding violence, but of healing conflict and restoring harmony.
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RE: We need to be civilized - 7/13/2008 3:52:24 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 89
Joined: 7/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
In that case I still think it is inappropriate to use of Jesus. He did not go about flaunting superiority. In that case I suggest you simply stop looking for fault where there is none. Here again you misinterpret conflate superiority with arrogance. And as if you really needed an explanation of 'kicks butt' and it's common usage in the first place.
quote:
Yes, people often mistake so-called "passive resistance" for "passivity"--putting the emphasis on "passive". The emphasis belongs on "resistance" and is better referred to as "peaceful resistance" or "non-violent resistance."
I like "peaceful resistance" best, as it points out that it is not just a matter of avoiding violence, but of healing conflict and restoring harmony. Of course, but what do you do when peaceful resistance doesn't work? So again, were our fathers uncivilized in taking up arms against Hitler? Or against slavery? Are we uncivilized if we use arms in defense of our families if physical attack is used against them? Of course not to all the above. Pacifism does not work in a fallen world where evil is easy and abundant.
_____________________________
"The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order." Sir F. Hoyle
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RE: We need to be civilized - 7/13/2008 5:30:31 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
Of course, but what do you do when peaceful resistance doesn't work?
Who has tried peaceful resistence to the point where it doesn't work.
Sometimes people think that just because resistance is peaceful there should be no victims. The crucifixion speaks to that. Did Jesus' peaceful resistance against Satan not work?
quote:
Pacifism does not work in a fallen world where evil is easy and abundant.
If pacifism does not work in a fallen world where it is needed, it does not work. End of story. In an unfallen world no resistance of any kind is needed.
The notion that violence is the only solution is one Jesus came to refute. That is the myth of Babylon--the myth of redemptive violence. That was the motto of Rome: "to obtain peace, prepare for war." Where has this ever got us but more violence, more war?
Jesus showed us a better way. Practice peace to get peace. Refrain from violence, love your enemy and return good for evil.
Pacifism, like Christianity, cannot be said to have failed when it has not been tried.
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RE: We need to be civilized - 7/16/2008 11:14:30 AM
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RCC
Posts: 93
Joined: 10/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
It's hard to imagine a 'scientist' acting less civilized than PZ.
He has himself encouraged the use of physical violence against IDists and creationists.
When did P.Z. Myers ever encourage the use of physical violence against anyone? I hope you are prepared to back up a charge like this.
I have been reading his blog for some months now, and from my reading he is strongly opposed to any use of violence against persons.
< Message edited by RCC -- 7/16/2008 11:33:15 AM >
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Richard
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RE: We need to be civilized - 7/27/2008 11:51:47 PM
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fallenstar
Posts: 120
Joined: 11/29/2007
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Things that Athiests throw in our face, even though it's long over.
The Crusades-when 1 million non-combatant civillans were killed
The 17 million slaves killed hundreds of years ago- when Catholics showed an interest in slavery
When Pope Innocent VIII made a declaration against witches in the 15 th and 16th century that killed hundreds and mabye thousands
The Iquisition-350,000 innocents killed
Rawanda ethnic cleansing
Support for "bloody regime" in Zimbabwe
Support for the croation genocide of the serbs
Okay, first of all, the Crusade was also Muslims, so it's not all the Christians fault.
Almost everything above has to do with Cahtolics and the Pope, which I am not, so why is it my problem? UGH!
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RE: We need to be civilized - 7/28/2008 7:58:23 AM
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drj11
Posts: 632
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
Things that Athiests throw in our face, even though it's long over.
The Crusades-when 1 million non-combatant civillans were killed
The 17 million slaves killed hundreds of years ago- when Catholics showed an interest in slavery
When Pope Innocent VIII made a declaration against witches in the 15 th and 16th century that killed hundreds and mabye thousands
The Iquisition-350,000 innocents killed
Rawanda ethnic cleansing
Support for "bloody regime" in Zimbabwe
Support for the croation genocide of the serbs
Okay, first of all, the Crusade was also Muslims, so it's not all the Christians fault.
Almost everything above has to do with Cahtolics and the Pope, which I am not, so why is it my problem? UGH!
Religion has a long rich history of being a very destructive, evil force and has been (and still is) one of the biggest sources of conflict throughout the history of mankind. Whether its the Christians during the inquisition or Al-Queda blowing up the world trade center, these are the things that religion makes possible and we should never forget it.
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