|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/14/2008 6:08:40 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5682
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
My discernment is on with Theo's posts and I know it is for a reason. I asked for simple (layman) clarification and cannot understand why a self-professing Christian would have such a problem with doing that.
To each his own...
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/14/2008 6:19:57 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
My discernment is on with Theo's posts and I know it is for a reason. I asked for simple (layman) clarification and cannot understand why a self-professing Christian would have such a problem with doing that.
To each his own...
Why is it that some men are so bent on proving Jesus is God they go berserk when someone points out that he is also man? Does that somehow make him less of a saviour?
You focus on the scriptures that point up deity, I focus on scripture that point up his direct blood tie to man and you get all bent out of shape.
I discern you too.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/14/2008 6:29:07 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5682
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
My discernment is on with Theo's posts and I know it is for a reason. I asked for simple (layman) clarification and cannot understand why a self-professing Christian would have such a problem with doing that.
To each his own...
Why is it that some men are so bent on proving Jesus is God they go berserk when someone points out that he is also man? Does that somehow make him less of a saviour?
You focus on the scriptures that point up deity, I focus on scripture that point up his direct blood tie to man and you get all bent out of shape.
I discern you too.
Of course Jesus was also fully man - He was the anthropos. We live in a time where a lot of people use the name 'Jesus' but they speak of a 'Jesus' that is completely foreign from the true and living Jesus revealed to us in Scripture.
It is the mother of all questions. When Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi, He asked his disciples the mother of all questions, "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15, Mark 8:29, Luke 9:20).
Mormons answer this question by saying that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer; Jehovah Witnesses answer by saying that Jesus is the archangel Michael; New Agers say Jesus is an avatar or enlightened messenger (and I could add a list of 40 or more descriptions people use to describe their false jesus).
Jesus, however, answered by claiming that He was God.
Do you agree?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/14/2008 8:18:34 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
My discernment is on with Theo's posts and I know it is for a reason. I asked for simple (layman) clarification and cannot understand why a self-professing Christian would have such a problem with doing that.
To each his own...
Why is it that some men are so bent on proving Jesus is God they go berserk when someone points out that he is also man? Does that somehow make him less of a saviour?
You focus on the scriptures that point up deity, I focus on scripture that point up his direct blood tie to man and you get all bent out of shape.
I discern you too.
Of course Jesus was also fully man - He was the anthropos. We live in a time where a lot of people use the name 'Jesus' but they speak of a 'Jesus' that is completely foreign from the true and living Jesus revealed to us in Scripture.
It is the mother of all questions. When Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi, He asked his disciples the mother of all questions, "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15, Mark 8:29, Luke 9:20).
Mormons answer this question by saying that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer; Jehovah Witnesses answer by saying that Jesus is the archangel Michael; New Agers say Jesus is an avatar or enlightened messenger (and I could add a list of 40 or more descriptions people use to describe their false jesus).
Jesus, however, answered by claiming that He was God.
Do you agree?
Not from your reference material. You prove MY point. He immediately tells them NOT to expose him as the Christ [Mat 16:20]; That he should tell NO man OF HIM, and begins to remind them he is the son of man.[Mark 8:30-31]; And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing (the CHRIST OF GOD) and Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things. [Luke 9:20-22]
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ." [Mat 16:15-20]
"And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am? 28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets. 29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. 30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. 31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things," [Mark 8:27-31]
18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?
19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.
20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day." [Luke 9:18-22]
As for being "the anthropos" you sound like other men are something else. ALL men are "anthropos."
You really need to focus your proofs on proof texts if you are going to accuse a brother.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/14/2008 8:28:41 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5682
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
I am not one for tangents, really. It could be due to a long work week and a 5 month old son... but the simple point is two-fold. Jesus is God and He claimed to be so in many times during His earthly ministry. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the King of Kings, Lord of Lords. I am simply asking you if you agree with that? Yes or no?
There is no "proof-texting" in saying the above.
Jesus claimed to be the unique Son of God. As a result, the Jewish leaders tried to kill Him because in "calling God His own Father, Jesus was making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).
In John 8:58 Jesus went so far as to use the very words by which God revealed Himself to Moses from the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). To the Jews this was the epitome of blasphemy for they knew that in doing so Jesus was clearly claiming to be God.
On yet another occasion, Jesus explicitly told the Jews: "I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but Jesus said to them "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? We are not stoning you for any of these, ' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God (John 10:30-33).
Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the Chief Priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the High Priest asked him: "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One? 'I am,' said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:61-62).
A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus' words.
Caiaphas and the Council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was "the Son of Man" who would come "on the clouds of heaven" he was making a overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 7:13-14).
And in doing so, He was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the Universe but prophesying that He would vindicate His claim by judging the very court that was now condemning Him.
Moreover, by combining Daniel's prophecy with David's proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that He would sit upon the throne of Israel's God and share God's very glory.
To students of the Old Testament this was the height of "blasphemy," thus "they all condemned Him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64).
Finally, Jesus claimed to possess the very attributes of God.
For example, He claimed omniscience by telling Peter, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times" (Matthew 26:34); declared omnipotence by not only resurrecting Lazarus (John 11:43) but by raising Himself from the dead (see John 2:1(); and professed omnipresence by promising He would be with his disciples "to the very end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).
Not only so, but Jesus said to the paralytic in Luke 5:20, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." In doing so, he claimed a prerogative reserved for God alone. In addition, when Thomas worshiped Jesus saying, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:20), Jesus responded with commendation rather than condemnation.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/14/2008 11:44:01 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 1788
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Theo...
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Col 1:15-16)
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb 1:3)
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Heb 1:2)
Do not these verses tell us that God through His Son (Who is the image of the invisible God) created the heavens and the earth? If Christ is the image of the invisible Father is not He God in a visible form?
Is there something difficult to understand here?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/15/2008 8:50:43 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
So WesP, which of the above scriptures do you say is separating God from Christ? I do not see that at all.
You said:
quote:
"WHETHER THEY BE" is a limiting parameter telling us which of the "all things" are being considered. It is speaking of the "new creation" which is in Christ Jesus, not the original creation, of which God said "I (first-person-singular) did alone."
I ask you WHO created. God or Jesus? Who holds the universe in balance? You stress singularity. I am curious as to what your point is. Does that help?
Not at all. The focus of the OP has been redirected to proving one aspect of the original question, over understanding the significance of the other aspect of the same question.
quote:
(modu)(Post #1) Who is Jesus? Who is Christ?
With all reverence to my Lord, let us use spiritual revelations based on the Holy Scripture. God bless...
(theo)(Post #3)Jesus is the seed of the woman of Gen 3:15; the seed of Abraham; seed of Isaac; Seed of Jacob/Israel; Seed of Jesse; seed of David; son of Mary; brother of Israel's children, and is the son of God.
Christ (Greek) and Messiah (Hebrew) both mean "anointed."
(theo)(Post #9) quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
yes!
OH MY GOODNESS!!!!! Um, TB, did we just agree on something?
Probably not. We agreed that Messiah and Christ mean the same thing, but not that they are always the same individual in scripture. My reference is to the old testament scriptures.
Priests and kings were Messiah in Hebrew, and Xristos in Greek. Jesus is called "ton Xriston Kuriou" in Luke 2:26 "And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen ton Xriston Kuriou [The Lord's Christ]."
But David called Saul "ton Xriston Kuriou" in 1 Sam 26:15 "And David said to Abner, Art not thou a valiant man? and who is like to thee in Israel? wherefore then hast thou not kept thy lord the king? for there came one of the people in to destroy the king thy lord. 16 This thing is not good that thou hast done. As the LORD liveth, ye are worthy to die, ye who guard your Lord the king, ton Criston kuriou [the anointed of the Lord]. And now see where the king's spear is, and the cruse of water that was at his head.
And the Priest of God was called "ho Xristos" in Lev 4:5, and Jesus is called "ho Xristos" in Mat 2:4.
So the ancient priest and kings of God were called "the Lord's anointed" jsut exactly the same way Jesus is called God's anointed.
So I am not sure if we are saying the same thing or not. What say ye?
My response was a focus on the original question. Who is Jesus, was answered in post #3. Who is Christ, was answered in Post # 9.
But, my post number nine seems to have triggered a response that has nothing to do with the original question, but rather is focused on determining that I agree with someone else's focus. "Do your own thing" seems to me to be the best solution. I will answer my way, you answer your way, and let live. (I happen to know without waiting to see, there are already plenty of people ready to defend the traditional views of "who is Christ." I thought it prudent to broaden your education to give some good old testament scripture so you would know who in fact "Christ" is. It is many people. Live with it.
Earthless' response in post number 6 is not a response to the OP, but is a testimonial to his faith in traditional views. And it changes the focus of the thread.
quote:
(earthless)(Post #6) Jesus is God almighty! I believe in the only true God (John 17:3), the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19), Who created all things (Revelation 4:11), and upholds all things by the word of His power (Hebrews 1:3), in Whom we live, and move and have our being (Acts 17:28), a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He (Deuteronomy 32:4), and He shall judge the world (Psalm 9:8).
I believe that the Godhead eternally exists in three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, having precisely the same nature, attributes, and perfections, and worthy of precisely the same homage, confidence and obedience (Mark 12:29; John 1:1-4; Matthew 28:19,20; Acts 5:3,4; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:4-6).
< Message edited by theo_book -- 7/15/2008 10:36:40 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/15/2008 10:35:38 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
theo_book,
I was not attempting to make you believe any particular thing. I merely asked for clarification because I found what you posted to be confusing. Your last paragraph in the above post made things clear. Thank you!
That was supposed to be a quote from earthless, but I missed it. Sorry if it made you think anything at all. I have edited it for correction.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/15/2008 1:19:20 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5682
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
Theo_book,
Jesus is God and He claimed to be so in many times during His earthly ministry. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the King of Kings, Lord of Lords. I am simply asking you if you agree with that? Yes or no?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/15/2008 1:23:32 PM
|
|
|
evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
|
quote:
My response was a focus on the original question. Who is Jesus, was answered in post #3. Who is Christ, was answered in Post # 9.
But, my post number nine seems to have triggered a response that has nothing to do with the original question, but rather is focused on determining that I agree with someone else's focus. "Do your own thing" seems to me to be the best solution. I will answer my way, you answer your way, and let live. (I happen to know without waiting to see, there are already plenty of people ready to defend the traditional views of "who is Christ." I thought it prudent to broaden your education to give some good old testament scripture so you would know who in fact "Christ" is. It is many people. Live with it.
First of all, if Jesus is Christ, then Christ is Jesus.
Secondly, you can go into definitions all you want. If you want to calls priests "christs" then fine, I'll let you do that for now. But there is a difference between christs and The Christ. If you want to give the title 'christ' to more than one individual, you must understand that there is a MAJOR difference between a priest christ and Jesus the Christ. It's the same as calling Jesus THE Messiah, even though you have put the title "messiah" on others. Do you agree that there is a difference between the titles given to Jesus and those given to priests? If not, you are diminishing who and what Jesus is, and it is this that concerns some here, including me.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/15/2008 3:36:15 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
My response was a focus on the original question. Who is Jesus, was answered in post #3. Who is Christ, was answered in Post # 9.
But, my post number nine seems to have triggered a response that has nothing to do with the original question, but rather is focused on determining that I agree with someone else's focus. "Do your own thing" seems to me to be the best solution. I will answer my way, you answer your way, and let live. (I happen to know without waiting to see, there are already plenty of people ready to defend the traditional views of "who is Christ." I thought it prudent to broaden your education to give some good old testament scripture so you would know who in fact "Christ" is. It is many people. Live with it.
First of all, if Jesus is Christ, then Christ is Jesus.
Secondly, you can go into definitions all you want. If you want to calls priests "christs" then fine, I'll let you do that for now. But there is a difference between christs and The Christ. If you want to give the title 'christ' to more than one individual, you must understand that there is a MAJOR difference between a priest christ and Jesus the Christ. It's the same as calling Jesus THE Messiah, even though you have put the title "messiah" on others. Do you agree that there is a difference between the titles given to Jesus and those given to priests? If not, you are diminishing who and what Jesus is, and it is this that concerns some here, including me.
There is no difference in the title " 'o Xristos," and " 'o Xristos." The title is applied in scripture to priests and kings in the O.T. and to Jesus in the new testament. And I DID NOT MAKE THE ASSIGNMENTS. I neither "put the title," "nor gave the title," nor did I diminish Jesus by referencing scriptures. It is YOU who make those judgments because you did not know and were not aware they were even there. And it is probably true, some including you are concerned. You would rather be concerned than do the research and study the meanings and come up with the doctrine God developed in his scriptures.
You would rather castigate those of us who have a real love for scripture and ALL the lessons contained therein, rather than limit ourselves to just those that have found their way into doctrines and traditions of men. Get a life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/15/2008 3:46:22 PM
|
|
|
evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
|
quote:
There is no difference in the title " 'o Xristos," and " 'o Xristos." The title is applied in scripture to priests and kings in the O.T. and to Jesus in the new testament. And I DID NOT MAKE THE ASSIGNMENTS. I neither "put the title," "nor gave the title," nor did I diminish Jesus by referencing scriptures. It is YOU who make those judgments because you did not know and were not aware they were even there. And it is probably true, some including you are concerned. You would rather be concerned than do the research and study the meanings and come up with the doctrine God developed in his scriptures.
You would rather castigate those of us who have a real love for scripture and ALL the lessons contained therein, rather than limit ourselves to just those that have found their way into doctrines and traditions of men. Get a life.
Yo dude, chill out! I wasn't accusing you of anything. I have already told you once in this thread that you have confused people, including me. I'm not the only one who has said this either! You really need to get over your ego, and listen to what we are trying to tell you. WE ARE CONFUSED! You wrote a post that confused people, we have tried to ask you simple questions of which you reply "I don't have to play your games. I don't have to answer your questions. Get a life." That is disrespectful, because all we are trying to do is understand something that has confused us. PERIOD. This is what's called deabet, if you didn't know that. You are the one who needs to "get a life" and take a chill pill.
My opinion when reading scriptures is that even though others have been called "anointed" NO ONE has been called the exact names Messiah OR Christ, correct? If your not going to answer this question, or any others, and you just think you are so much smarter than everyone else, and you believe we all have fallen to "doctrines of man" (and yours isn't?), then don't reply, and we will know exactly where you are at. But, if you would like to have a mature debate over this subject, then let's act civil and debate! Is that ok with you?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/16/2008 8:16:19 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
(ever1needsgod)
Yo dude, chill out! I wasn't accusing you of anything. I have already told you once in this thread that you have confused people, including me. I'm not the only one who has said this either! You really need to get over your ego, and listen to what we are trying to tell you. WE ARE CONFUSED! You wrote a post that confused people, we have tried to ask you simple questions of which you reply "I don't have to play your games. I don't have to answer your questions. Get a life." That is disrespectful, because all we are trying to do is understand something that has confused us. PERIOD. This is what's called deabet, if you didn't know that. You are the one who needs to "get a life" and take a chill pill.
(theo) sure sounds like accusation to me:
quote:
(every1needsgod) "If you want to call priests "christs" then fine, I'll let you do that for now."
"If you want to give the title 'christ' to more than one individual,"
"you have put the title "messiah" on others."
"If not, you are diminishing who and what Jesus is, and it is this that concerns some here, including me."
(theo) I did not call priests Christ. GOD DID.
I did not give the title "Christ" to more than one individual, GOD DID.
I did not put the title "Messiah" on others, GOD DID.
And He did it for a simple reason. He wants us to THOROUGHLY UNDERSTAND his meaning as HE applies it to Jesus.
quote:
(every1needsgod) My opinion when reading scriptures is that even though others have been called "anointed" NO ONE has been called the exact names Messiah OR Christ, correct?
(theo) NOT correct. "ho Xrixtos" = "the Christ" is applied to Jesus in the new testament, AND "ho Xristos" "the anointed" is applied to the priests of the old testament. It is exactly the SAME language carrying exactly the same meaning. It is the anointed of God in both cases. This is not MY doing. It is scriptural and it is verifiable. So lay off the "mad" stuff.
In 1 Sam 26:15 And David, in speaking to Abner, references King Saul as "ton Criston kuriou" [the anointed of the Lord].
But Luke calls Jesus "ton Xriston Kuriou" [The Lord's Christ].
Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen ton Xriston Kuriou [The Lord's Christ].
It is one and the same.
quote:
(every1needsgod) If your not going to answer this question, or any others, and you just think you are so much smarter than everyone else, and you believe we all have fallen to "doctrines of man" (and yours isn't?), then don't reply, and we will know exactly where you are at.
(theo) Certainly sounds like hostility to me. Or maybe I am just over-reacting. Nope! sounds like hostility.
quote:
(every1needsgod) But, if you would like to have a mature debate over this subject, then let's act civil and debate! Is that ok with you?
(theo) Sure. What is the debate about, whether Messiah and Xristos are used in the old testament applied to priests and kings? I will defend the affirmative.
Anyone want to defend the negation?
< Message edited by theo_book -- 7/16/2008 8:24:12 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/16/2008 8:19:13 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5682
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
Cult alert.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/16/2008 8:25:22 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Cult alert.
We all know you're there, earthless, and don't need an alert every few minutes.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/16/2008 10:03:13 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5682
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Cult alert.
We all know you're there, earthless, and don't need an alert every few minutes.
And we all know you're ignoring my straight forward questions. No self-professing Christian should have any problems straight-forwardly affirming the deity of Jesus Christ.
Plus, you're not the only one that reads these threads. This site gets over a million hits.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/16/2008 10:08:21 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Cult alert.
We all know you're there, earthless, and don't need an alert every few minutes.
It is hard not to respond like that with what you are presenting and how you are doing it. You are dodging an easy explanation in favor of attempting scholarly presentation and failing. We ask for clarification, and you continue to say God supports whatever your position is without stating succinctly what that position is. To top that off, you give us rude comments to answer disagreement and question. Reference an earlier response as your discussion technique: "Get over it!"
From my vantage, you are denying the deity of Christ. You refuse to clarify.
Hello WesP.
I have seen some of your posts and have more respect for your work than this. You really should read what I post, not what some accuse me of saying. I have never denied the deity of Christ on this board, in any post.
I have repeatedly quoted verbatim from the Scriptures, and without commentary changing any meaning whatsoever, presented simple facts I did not think the readers were aware of.
The first and immediate reaction was to question my belief in the deity of Christ, as though God calling his priests "ho Xristos and kings "kurios" and "ho Xristos" would have any effect whatsoever on the facts of who and what Jesus is and was. I was simply pointing out the historical significance of God's use of "kurios" and "ho Xristos" as HE applied it in previous days.
To be called "kurios" (My Lord the king) and "ho Xristos" (the anointed) is not insignificant, but rather is most telling as to God's use of the terminology, and especially his re-use of the terms in the New Testament. It shows the history of a movement begun in the Covenant with Abraham.
God made not one, but TWO Covenants with Abraham. The Christian dispensation did not begin with Jesus Christ, it began with Abraham and God's promise to him. Jesus is referenced in the New Testament thusly "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." [Gal 3:16]
To fail to understand the significance of Abraham in the covenant with Christ, misses much that is rich with historical development and with that which was designed to lead the Jews to Christ.
What do you understand to be the significance of "God made him both Lord and Christ" in Acts 2:36, with respect to the resurrected Jesus?
Jesus was "Lord" and he was "Christ" clear up until he was killed by the Roman soldiers at the behest of the Jewish mobs.
The significance is only found in an understanding of the fact that all those who preceded Jesus in wearing the titles "Lord" and "Christ" were only "Lord" and "Christ" UNTIL THEY DIED; at which point historically, the titles passed to their heirs. But Jesus was different. AFTER he was killed by the hands of wicked men, God raised him from the dead and "MADE HIM BOTH LORD AND CHRIST." There will be no more "Lords" and there will be no more "Christ's" ordained by God's covenant command, to be "Lord and Christ" forever.
This is only understood by knowing about the "Lords" and "Christs" of the old covenant. It has NOTHING TO DO with diminishing the "Lordship" or "Christship" of Jesus. It has EVERYTHING TO DO with knowing what it means to be both Lord and Christ, and the extent of the office. It was a lifetime appointment. This is shown by the fact that after God appointed DAVID, Saul was still defended by David as "The Lord's Xristos." In fact, David went so far as to have the man who killed Saul put to death for daring to lay hand to "The Lord's Xristos." When Saul's life ended, so did his office. So did David, and every king ever raised by God to rule in the kingdom's of men, with ONE EXCEPTION; Him whom God "MADE BOTH LORD AND CHRIST after his death and resurrection. And the reason for this is also given in the old testament; "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." [Psa 110:4]
This could ONLY be true if God "MADE HIM BOTH LORD AND CHRIST after his resurrection, BECAUSE all historical application heretofor had ended with the death of the anointed ones, be they priests or be they kings.
Now, it is entirely possible I have over reacted because of hurtful suggestions made on other threads, but the accusations coming my way certainly began to loook familiar, so I responded accordingly.
For that , I apologize.
For trying to present Scriptural application of historical meaning and significance, I do not.
I will continue to try to present what to the New Abrahamic Covenant was considerd "Mystery" but was foretold in the historical Old Abrahamic Covenant. It looks like the old covenant can bring more than just the Jews to "Xristos."
And I did not say God supports my position. In fact. I support God's position, with all my heart and soul.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 7/16/2008 10:21:45 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/16/2008 12:29:42 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Cult alert.
We all know you're there, earthless, and don't need an alert every few minutes.
And we all know you're ignoring my straight forward questions. No self-professing Christian should have any problems straight-forwardly affirming the deity of Jesus Christ.
Plus, you're not the only one that reads these threads. This site gets over a million hits.
The dual questions of "Who is Jesus? Who is Christ?" is the theme of the thread. If I were to post a response on the subject of "The Deity of Christ" I would be reminded (as I have been on several posts) that there is already a thread established for that theme. Read the rules of the board.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Who is Jesus? Who is Christ? - 7/16/2008 12:40:20 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5682
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
The rules of the board do not mean you cannot answer another adult Christian's simple questions. Especially when they are regarding something so primal as the deity of Jesus Christ, the Alpha and the Omega.
But I guess you operate differently.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
