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Guns for God. - 7/11/2008 11:15:48 PM
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lightshineon
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Found out that, one elder is armed to protect pastor, and one deacon patrols the ha;llway upstairs ( childrens ministries) with guns uncover. It is not a mega church. We have 300-350 people, and no violence, that I know of. I would know, because my husband is an elder ( A non-gun toteing one). I just do not know what to think. Your opinion. Also there is a Baptist church in OKC having a gun give away for a youth conference. This is not my church. Ok, before the judgmental people who tell me I am rebellious blah, blah. I really do not know what to think. It all seems strange to me, but, maybe an intelligent member of CW take, will show me a enightment view. Thanks  Oh BTW, my husband has guns in the home, we are not anti-gun.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/11/2008 11:29:12 PM
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pbaribeault
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Guns are not an ordinary part of my subculture (urban western Canada) so it would be disquieting to me if people (even responsible leaders) had them on hand at Church services.
Aside from personal discomfort, it kind of implies an expectation of needing to use them... and I can't imagine why they would be needed. Who does the Pastor or the children need to be protected from? Under what circumstances would the 'guardian' be sure the threat was serious enough to shoot someone over? By the time they were sure, isn't the damage likely to be done?
Also, are Americans allowed to shoot each other to 'protect' some other person? I thought they could only shoot on their own property, and maybe in clear self defense... Like someone rushing with a knife. Maybe someone rushing another person with a knife is OK too? Also, are you allowed to use a gun as a threat to say to someone, "Get out of here, or else." Or are death threats a criminal offense?
Do these 'guardians' know the laws and circumstances that are OK, or are they the type that consider themselves willing to 'do the right thing' even if it's against the law? (That mindset troubles me deeply.) I assume they have the proper permits to carry concealed firearms.
But what are the chances of someone rushing your pastor with a knife? Do they have a reason to believe there is some likelihood of threat... or are they just the kind of people who think that there probably is a threat whether you see it or not, and it never hurts to be on your guard? (Another troubling mindset.)
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/11/2008 11:54:16 PM
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lightshineon
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Hi, well one the elder is a volunteer reserve police officer, the deacon is a retired Fire chief, they both have permits. No, threats I know of, and I am sure that I would know that one. In Oklahoma with a permit we are allowed to carry concealed weapons, anyone (Of sound mind can, with a backgrund check). I saw the deacons gun strapped under his suit, I forgot to tell husband. I do not like it upstairs with children, or down stairs either it is disturbing to me. No one has rushed our pastor, or even really says anything bad about him. We are a peaceful church, we go, we serve, we go home. There is the ocasion rift in relationships, which God permits to see how we will handle them, but nothing violent. It is also disturbing what I heard on TV, giving youths guns in the metro of Oklahoma city. Thi is not my small town church, but that is crazy also, there is much gang violence in OKC, but not here in my town of 16,000. My thought to be honest in my situation, it seems cultish. The other laws I am not sure on to be honest.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 1:27:09 AM
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DenimDiva
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At the church I went to in Indiana, no one would've thought twice about seeing someone with a gun there. It was a small town and lots of folks went hunting before or after services. Some people just bought them in to show to others. I don't think anyone really gave it a second thought.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 2:09:47 AM
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zamdad
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The church I attend is a rural church and guns are part of the culture. Every summer the church sponsors a skeet shooting event that draws people from all over. Businesses donate prizes to be given away to the youth who come. This year we gave away four shotguns.
As for carrying at church. I am a police officer and can carry off duty. I have worn my gun to church a few times, but do not like to display it openly. As I read through the answers thus far, it seems we all have our own ideas about the matter. In trying to imagine a scenario in which a gun could be used to defend a pastor or another person around a church, there are too many scenarios to consider. Lok at the church shootings in Colorado. No one would have imagined that. Unfortunately we now live in a world where suicidal people go homicidal first and decide they want to take others with them. We never know when or where this is going to occur. We all want to feel safe wherever we go. No place is safe anymore.
If anyone has a concern about guns being worn to church by trained individuals, I think it's time to get over yourself. If I carry a gun into the church and you don't like it, am I responsible for your emotion? There are no easy answers to this situation. If we are going to make any headway on it, we have to see past the nose on our face.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 7:44:52 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5111
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quote:
Hi, well one the elder is a volunteer reserve police officer, the deacon is a retired Fire chief, they both have permits.
I'm not sure what the problem is. It sounds like they are responsible, trained individuals carrying legally.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 8:19:45 AM
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seagullplayer
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Many times more people are killed in auto accidents each Sunday than die in Church shootings. We thank the Lord for everyone’s safety getting to Church and we ask for His protection as we leave.
I think we will continue to use the same plan of prayer for any “gun play” that might break out while we are there…
I’m not anti-gun either, I have a cabinet full. I think if I ask God for His protection, I should trust Him for it.
Maybe a sign:
This house protected by God, you can keep your Smith and Wesson at home…
_____________________________
The world has only one problem, sin.
There is only one solution, Jesus.
THE WAY.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 8:25:32 AM
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David_D
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That's not something I've seen, but I suspect I'd get used to it pretty quickly.
Was the deacon trying to conceal and you noticed it? If so, telling him would have been a kindness.
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O for grace to trust Him more!
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 8:27:36 AM
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rcjames
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I am sure that at times some of the men (and possibly ladies) have carried a gun to Church. We are a legal carry state. I know for a fact that every vehicle in the parking lot will have a gun in it. The pick-ups have rifles in racks in the back window. It goes without saying that we are a small town country Church.
We have a couple of competition shooting teams that are "Sponsored" by the Church in that they buy shirts that have the Churches name on the back of them (paid for by the mem themselves, no Church monies involved).
Guns are a part of our culture here in rural Oklahoma. Any disadvantages; none that I can think of. Any advantages; I do not lock my house at night or when we are out of town, and the Church is never locked. There is not enough crime here to even measure and post a crime rate.
I have ministered in large Churches in cities that have openly armed guards in the parking lots, and I am sure some concealed carry guards in the Church proper.
Personally I collect guns, have a carry permit, hunt, shoot on two competition shooting teams, but have never taken any of my guns to Church.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 9:53:27 AM
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earthless
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I carry concealed in church - preach while carrying concealed, etc.. but I am a law enforcement officer so it's just part of who I am.
As for praying for God's protection? Absolutely. But God gives us a brain and the tools to protect ourselves. One of the comments above reminded me of an old story I would use in certain sermons - a man was forced to his roof due to a massive flood that encompassed his entire town.
He was there praying that God would send him some help and protect him.
First a paddle boat approached him as he sat on his roof.. the guy in the paddle boat pleaded with the man to get in. He said, "No thanks.. I am trusting in the Lord to provide for me in this trying time!"
Second, a speed boat filled with food and drinking water passed and tried to get him on board. He said, "No thanks.. I am trusting in the Lord to provide for me in this trying time!"
The water was now rising even more.. reaching the edges of his roof.
Thirdly, another boat came by.. He said, "No thanks.. I am trusting in the Lord to provide for me in this trying time!"
Now the water was reaching his feet and covering his legs. The man started to pray even harder and with more sincerity and desperation.
Lastly, a helicopter started buzzing over head and threw down a ladder and a guy came down to help him up. He said, "No thanks.. I am trusting in the Lord to provide for me in this trying time!"
The water over took the roof of the house and the man drowned.
When he was in the presence of the Lord he asked, "Jesus! Why didn't you protect me and provide me with help?!"
Jesus looked at him and said, "I did - four times.. but you denied them all."
Sometimes we can get so religious that we don't realize God uses people, circumstances, things, tools, etc.. to provide for us when we think it should all be a "supernatural" type provision.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 11:56:25 AM
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real58
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I thank God daily that I live in Canada, I can't even imagtion having a gun at church or anywhere else for that matter. Yes, we have people who hunt but would never dream of having a weapon in church.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 3:50:49 PM
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rcjames
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After the Colorado Church shooting incident HERE I would not be suprised if many Churches do not have armed security (concealed or otherwise) on premise.
One can only guess at how many more folks would have been killed or wounded if the Church had not had armed security on the premises.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 3:59:46 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2529
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Also there is a Baptist church in OKC having a gun give away for a youth conference
Is this a rifle for hunting/shooting or a handgun? Big difference. Given the crime rate in some of the inner cities it is wise to carry a gun when taking the offering from the church to the bank. The other option is the expense of hired security.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 4:18:40 PM
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phosadaud
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I attend a fairly large church and we have quite a few police officers who attend. I know for a fact that guns have been in the church because some of the officers will come on their breaks while on duty. I'm sure some of them have probably carried while off-duty as well and I know at least one man who has a concealed weapons permit and I know has carried to church before (although you would never know). All are well trained. All are folks I would trust. I don't see why this is an issue at all.
I mean, hey! The disciples carried swords - per Jesus' instruction.
I also think it's important to clarify some assumptions:
1. Do you know why these elders are carrying? I would think it more likely that because of their careers, they are helping with security and they also happen to carry. I'd be surprised if they carried ONLY to "do security" at the church. My guess is that they normally carry and aren't going to stop carrying just because they are at church.
2. Even if you are aware of no threat, does not mean none exists. Trust me on this one. We have had threats (death threats even) against some of our pastors from time to time by crazy people. The ONLY reason I knew was related to my position in the church (not an elder - I am on staff).
Now if folks who shouldn't have guns (ie - the guy who just got out of prison or the guy who is mentally unstable) start showing up toting guns, I'd start to get concerned.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 4:26:23 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Now if folks who shouldn't have guns (ie - the guy who just got out of prison or the guy who is mentally unstable) start showing up toting guns, I'd start to get concerned.
The folks you mention are not allowed to carry in any state; so they would be criminals and you should have concern.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 4:32:42 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: real58
I thank God daily that I live in Canada, I can't even imagtion having a gun at church or anywhere else for that matter. Yes, we have people who hunt but would never dream of having a weapon in church.
Would you feel the same if your area was plagued with crime and gang bangers?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 7:11:09 PM
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DenimDiva
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quote:
ORIGINAL: real58
I thank God daily that I live in Canada, I can't even imagine having a gun at church or anywhere else for that matter. Yes, we have people who hunt but would never dream of having a weapon in church.
No weapons at all in the church? Does this mean that you don't have anyone attending who is trained in martial arts? If your church has a kitchen, I sure hope they have some weapons in there - you know, like knives or forks or even spoons in the hands of the wrong people.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 7:31:57 PM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Hi, well one the elder is a volunteer reserve police officer, the deacon is a retired Fire chief, they both have permits. No, threats I know of, and I am sure that I would know that one. In Oklahoma with a permit we are allowed to carry concealed weapons, anyone (Of sound mind can, with a backgrund check). I saw the deacons gun strapped under his suit, I forgot to tell husband. I do not like it upstairs with children, or down stairs either it is disturbing to me. No one has rushed our pastor, or even really says anything bad about him. We are a peaceful church, we go, we serve, we go home. There is the ocasion rift in relationships, which God permits to see how we will handle them, but nothing violent. It is also disturbing what I heard on TV, giving youths guns in the metro of Oklahoma city. Thi is not my small town church, but that is crazy also, there is much gang violence in OKC, but not here in my town of 16,000. My thought to be honest in my situation, it seems cultish. The other laws I am not sure on to be honest.
I'm not sure what happens now, but when my dad was a policeman, he was required to carry a gun at all times -- no matter where he was. If he didn't have a gun and something happened, he would have been called down by the police department. I guess what I'm saying is that no policeman is totally off duty. So considering the scenario you've given, I can understand the policeman having a gun.
We do not have guns at our service that I know of. But there is a deacon and an elder on guard. If they have guns, they've surely kept it underwraps. One of them sits by the front door, and one sits in the middle of the sanctuary. They are aware that they are to deal with something that gets violent. What's really interesting about this is that my husband instructed them to do this a few years ago, and he says it was at the Lord's prompting, so it was done very calmly and not as a knee jerk to a particular event. Then here in the last year or so we've started to hear about a lot of other churches where the pastor has done the same.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 7:46:17 PM
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lightshineon
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These two men are retired, and no the deacon did not noticed that I saw the gun. We are a small town, pastor RC, you know the size of our town and most likely our church. I think what I am having a hardtime wrapping my head around is this. There is a church an Apostolic ( oneness) in my community which is a cult. They have armed gaurds, with guns always have, I though that was strange years ago, long before this incident. One man owns a electronics store, and the other the deacon I trust his skills because he was a Fire investigator. The other one, Lord help us, would be like Barney Fife (sp). That is just an opinion I do not really know his markmans man ship skills, just him. Some one rushed the pastor, he might shoot his own toe off. I am joking maybe thinking of my own skills. The point is not really zamdad or earthless, or any off duty personel, carrying weapons. I do not like weapons with little children teenagers upstairs, and the pastor said in meeting there has been no threats. To me which has been wrong, or may differ from some oit seems like a power thing. Maybe it is because the only church I have known in my town who, had armed gaurds, have been a cult. This is just not a person having their gun with them, they are church security. Nothing warnts this in my opinion. Now there maybe churches that do have to have security, and yes I have thought about Jesus and the sword verse. These man were traveling, and there were wild animals also, you can reference this with the temptation of Jesus in the Desert. Paul was beaten, and all the disciples or apostles except John were killed, along with many other Christians in the early church and now. Were theyble fighters with the just, horrible fighters with their swords?
Now the church in Oklahoma city giving away guns as a prize is totally wrong. I do not know for sure if it is a hand gun or rifle, either way, why not seanon passess to Whitewater. Yes Pastor RC, I have been raised In Oklahoma since the age of five, my daddy unted, my brother, my uncles. I shot cans at the river when younger. I would defend my children with a gun if necessary. I just think things are going to far, with conceled weapons under mens suits. If I saw it I am sure others have. These are not young men either, probaly sixties. I do with common sense lock my doors when leaving for the store even. My husband has dome security at church ( he is huge) weapon free, just made sure things are ok. As far as the kitchen Knife I said, I was not anti-gun we have about twelve in the closet hand guns, and rifles. My husbband is Military for petes sake, he Field Artillery. You know cannons and such big guns. Many false teachers such as Jaunita Bynum, TD jakes, and other host of TBN preachers have armed gaurds. I thank you for opinions, I do see things in your points, I still have a problem with it being a power thing. On the second issue, giving uns to children as door prizes has a whole other set of problems. Who knows who, is a psyco kid going to shpoot your children at school. They do not have to pass a background check, they cannot even buy a gun at under eighteen. Who knows what type of child a weapon is given to? I mean an unbalnced child could come to win the prize and have revival at the Public Highschool.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 7:51:04 PM
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lightshineon
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lisa this is wise to have a look out, I believe that. I believe if your dad being an officer had his gun on him at all times that was being a good officer, it was not just at church though it was all time? Right?. I believe in security for sure, just not conceled weapons unless it is part of your normal duties. The one man is not a real policeman, he is an auxiliary policeman, he owns an elctronics store. He does not have to carry a weapon, he does it as the pastors (literal) Armor bearer. I do appreciate view points though, it is giving me some perspective on the situation, it has not changed my mind in whole, but can see things in a different light somewhat. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Hi, well one the elder is a volunteer reserve police officer, the deacon is a retired Fire chief, they both have permits. No, threats I know of, and I am sure that I would know that one. In Oklahoma with a permit we are allowed to carry concealed weapons, anyone (Of sound mind can, with a backgrund check). I saw the deacons gun strapped under his suit, I forgot to tell husband. I do not like it upstairs with children, or down stairs either it is disturbing to me. No one has rushed our pastor, or even really says anything bad about him. We are a peaceful church, we go, we serve, we go home. There is the ocasion rift in relationships, which God permits to see how we will handle them, but nothing violent. It is also disturbing what I heard on TV, giving youths guns in the metro of Oklahoma city. Thi is not my small town church, but that is crazy also, there is much gang violence in OKC, but not here in my town of 16,000. My thought to be honest in my situation, it seems cultish. The other laws I am not sure on to be honest.
I'm not sure what happens now, but when my dad was a policeman, he was required to carry a gun at all times -- no matter where he was. If he didn't have a gun and something happened, he would have been called down by the police department. I guess what I'm saying is that no policeman is totally off duty. So considering the scenario you've given, I can understand the policeman having a gun.
We do not have guns at our service that I know of. But there is a deacon and an elder on guard. If they have guns, they've surely kept it underwraps. One of them sits by the front door, and one sits in the middle of the sanctuary. They are aware that they are to deal with something that gets violent. What's really interesting about this is that my husband instructed them to do this a few years ago, and he says it was at the Lord's prompting, so it was done very calmly and not as a knee jerk to a particular event. Then here in the last year or so we've started to hear about a lot of other churches where the pastor has done the same.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 7:53:55 PM
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bzirk
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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Light,
I don't really know what I think about the situation with the guns at church. It is so foreign to my way of thinking -- even growing up with my dad being a policeman. It would have been strange if someone not a policeman had had a gun at church. BTW, whenever my dad went to church he did not make it known he had a gun. He didn't make that known anywhere. We, his family, just knew it (and not even I knew it until I was in high school). But we live in a different world, and I'm wondering what would be wrong with someone having a gun so they could possibly defend the congregation if someone took in their heads to come in with a gun? Can possession of the guns appear cultish and in fact be a cultish thing to do? Yep, I guess it can, but that doesn't mean that it's always cultish. I think it's a matter of the Lord's leading and a tough one to make a blanket statement about. As for the kids in OKC getting guns, I don't know what I think, but it is definitely something to ponder. Perhaps it doesn't seem completely weird to me since almost every kid around here where I live owns a gun but given to them mostly by their parents.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 7:56:28 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2906
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
lisa this is wise to have a look out, I believe that. I believe if your dad being an officer had his gun on him at all times that was being a good empolyee, it was not just at church though it was all times. I believe in security for sure, just not conceled weapons unless it is part of your normal duties. The one man is not a real policeman, he is an auxilary policeman, he owns an elctronics store. He does not have to carry a weapon, he does it as the pastors (literal) Armor bearer.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Hi, well one the elder is a volunteer reserve police officer, the deacon is a retired Fire chief, they both have permits. No, threats I know of, and I am sure that I would know that one. In Oklahoma with a permit we are allowed to carry concealed weapons, anyone (Of sound mind can, with a backgrund check). I saw the deacons gun strapped under his suit, I forgot to tell husband. I do not like it upstairs with children, or down stairs either it is disturbing to me. No one has rushed our pastor, or even really says anything bad about him. We are a peaceful church, we go, we serve, we go home. There is the ocasion rift in relationships, which God permits to see how we will handle them, but nothing violent. It is also disturbing what I heard on TV, giving youths guns in the metro of Oklahoma city. Thi is not my small town church, but that is crazy also, there is much gang violence in OKC, but not here in my town of 16,000. My thought to be honest in my situation, it seems cultish. The other laws I am not sure on to be honest.
I'm not sure what happens now, but when my dad was a policeman, he was required to carry a gun at all times -- no matter where he was. If he didn't have a gun and something happened, he would have been called down by the police department. I guess what I'm saying is that no policeman is totally off duty. So considering the scenario you've given, I can understand the policeman having a gun.
We do not have guns at our service that I know of. But there is a deacon and an elder on guard. If they have guns, they've surely kept it underwraps. One of them sits by the front door, and one sits in the middle of the sanctuary. They are aware that they are to deal with something that gets violent. What's really interesting about this is that my husband instructed them to do this a few years ago, and he says it was at the Lord's prompting, so it was done very calmly and not as a knee jerk to a particular event. Then here in the last year or so we've started to hear about a lot of other churches where the pastor has done the same.
We're in agreement. I think it would definitely concern me if someone had a gun but was not really trained to deal with conflicts like policeman are. My dad was pretty calm and didn't knee jerk nor get excited about people doing things they shouldn't. After years of dealing with knuckleheads (as he called them), it seemed to be no big deal for him. That's the kind of person I would want carrying a gun.
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Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 7:59:15 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3423
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Yes, my brother had guns as a child, he cannot have them now as he threatned the President, and is mentally ill , andThe Sedret Service put a stop to his gun collecting ( seriously). A parent usually knows their child somewhat, but a door prize given to any kid, that is just unacceptable as a prize to children.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Light,
I don't really know what I think about the situation with the guns at church. It is so foreign to my way of thinking -- even growing up with my dad being a policeman. It would have been strange if someone not a policeman had had a gun at church. BTW, whenever my dad went to church he did not make it known he had a gun. He didn't make that known anywhere. We, his family, just knew it (and not even I knew it until I was in high school). But we live in a different world, and I'm wondering what would be wrong with someone having a gun so they could possibly defend the congregation if someone took in their heads to come in with a gun? Can possession of the guns appear cultish and in fact be a cultish thing to do? Yep, I guess it can, but that doesn't mean that it's always cultish. I think it's a matter of the Lord's leading and a tough one to make a blanket statement about. As for the kids in OKC getting guns, I don't know what I think, but it is definitely something to ponder. Perhaps it doesn't seem completely weird to me since almost every kid around here where I live owns a gun but given to them mostly by their parents.
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 7/12/2008 8:07:35 PM >
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Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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