RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle during youth conference
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 7:09:56 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4476
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Jesus didn't own a sword and he reprimanded his disciples the only time they used theirs by saying "Stop, no more of this!" Luke 22:51
It wasn't the use of the sword, but why... It's common knowledge that Peter had a issue with Christ giving up his life and that due to his pride he thought he knew better than even Christ...
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If a secular group were doing this I wouldn't even bat an eyelash. But I believe in the separation of church and gun!
Your believe isn't supported by the bible...
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I really don't understand why some people get all hot and bothered over a cold piece of steel whether it be a gun or a car.
The only ones wo are getting hot and bothered about are the ones who will say anything to justify being against it...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 7:15:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4476
Joined: 4/15/2005
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ORIGINAL: clayton994
So you are saying that children as a group are mature? ...mature enough to drink alcohol? ...mature enough to drive a car? (going back to Light's initial argument).
Unlike you and others I will not make such a general statement... To say children as a group are not mature enough is false...
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You said that "beer is covered by the law of the land", but the reason that underage drinking is illegal is because children aren't considered mature enough to handle alcohol.
Yet we know some are...
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If you think that children are mature, then I can only assume that you don't believe there should be an age limit on alcohol, driving, or any other activity that is legal for adults to participate in.
Only if you assume I use the same failed logic you and others have shown here....
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 7:18:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4476
Joined: 4/15/2005
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ORIGINAL: cow451
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: cow451
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ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Facts are parents have been taking their PRETEEN kids hunting since the FOUNDING of this country. Prior to the modern age, it was one of the great bonding experiences between father and son. Now, today, sadly we have lost that when you dont have to go out hunting for your food and kids can sit in front of the TV 24/7 not learning a single thing, growing up hating their parents becasue they think they dont love them. What a sad pathetic life we lead.
Give me a father who gets his child a rifle and teaches them how to use it over a parent who gets their kid a video game system and a cell phone ANY DAY!!
How would the church decide that the winner is mature enough for the prize?
Who decided it had to in the first place?
John
You cannot be serious. If some gang-banger lucks out and wins, you (if it were up to you) would give him a weapon?
There are laws in place regarding who can recieve and or purchase a weapon...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 7:21:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4476
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Even so, I still think it sends a bad message about Christ given what is generally associated with semi-automatic rifles. Giving away a legitimate hunting rifle would be a better reflection of Christian values.
Given that 4 of the 6 hunting rifles I own are semi-automatic what is the personal criteria you are using for what constitutes a legitimate hunting rifle?
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I don't think gimmicky giveaways are appropriate for churches anyway. It reflects the rampant materialism that we Christians decry in the secular world.
Laughable...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 7:27:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4476
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
A good number of hunting rifles, specifically shot guns are semi-automatic. meaning the next round is chambered when you fire. Some hunters even line the semi's over traditional bolt in dear hunting as it allows them to get a second shot of quicker, with out loosing the target in the scope.
A good point, except that the article specified "assault rifle", which is unlikely to be what you describe. It would be nice to know exactly what weapon was to be given away.
An assault-rifle is a matter of function not simply style... The gun given away looks like an assault rife, but is doesn't operate like one...It's a version of the common civilian version of the Army rifle...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 9:47:49 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3471
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Lets see?Let us call it an ATF church, since Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are all regulated by the same agency. John so glad you have the Beaver Cleaver Family, and no problems like mine. I tell you something the Bible says foolishness is bound in the Heart of a child. Anyone with two hands, two legs, and half a brain knows a childs brain is not fully developed until age 18-20. That is why a child cannot buy a gun, a car, beer, tobbaco. I remember when I was a child my cousins, had BB and pellet guns at my grandma Smiths house, they nailed a bird to a tree, and executed it. It still bothers me many, many, years latter. I also have friends whose son they did not even know was suicidal, age 13, blew his brains out with his gun, they found brain matter in Christmas ornaments the next Christmas. My girls three of them, do not care about guns. Children, do not need guns, it is such it foolish to give a child one. Adults who are responsible would not give a child a gun. I think it great that adults that are qualified have the right to bear arms, that is a great freedom, that should never be taken away. Anyway " You will shoot your eye out kid."
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ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well John lets give them a six pack of beer, they are not mature enough ubtil twenty-one, but hey parents permission. Why Not? How about tabbaco? cripture does not have anything about that. I know condoms why not?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:09:54 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1120
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Lets see?Let us call it an ATF church, since Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are all regulated by the same agency. John so glad you have the Beaver Cleaver Family, and no problems like mine. I tell you something the Bible says foolishness is bound in the Heart of a child. Anyone with two hands, two legs, and half a brain knows a childs brain is not fully developed until age 18-20. That is why a child cannot buy a gun, a car, beer, tobbaco. I remember when I was a child my cousins, had BB and pellet guns at my grandma Smiths house, they nailed a bird to a tree, and executed it. It still bothers me many, many, years latter. I also have friends whose son they did not even know was suicidal, age 13, blew his brains out with his gun, they found brain matter in Christmas ornaments the next Christmas. My girls three of them, do not care about guns. Children, do not need guns, it is such it foolish to give a child one. Adults who are responsible would not give a child a gun. I think it great that adults that are qualified have the right to bear arms, that is a great freedom, that should never be taken away. Anyway " You will shoot your eye out kid."
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ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well John lets give them a six pack of beer, they are not mature enough ubtil twenty-one, but hey parents permission. Why Not? How about tabbaco? cripture does not have anything about that. I know condoms why not?
So you condemn the MILLIONS of families whos kids go hunting with their fathers? My I have several cousins who grew up hunting with their respective fathers. And none of them ever did anything wrong, none mis used the firearms at all! Your blanket judgment on kids and firearms shows a utter lack of knowledge and understanding into this area.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:11:23 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
So you are saying that children as a group are mature? ...mature enough to drink alcohol? ...mature enough to drive a car? (going back to Light's initial argument).
Unlike you and others I will not make such a general statement... To say children as a group are not mature enough is false...
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You said that "beer is covered by the law of the land", but the reason that underage drinking is illegal is because children aren't considered mature enough to handle alcohol.
Yet we know some are...
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If you think that children are mature, then I can only assume that you don't believe there should be an age limit on alcohol, driving, or any other activity that is legal for adults to participate in.
Only if you assume I use the same failed logic you and others have shown here....
John
Well, you're saying that it's OK for children to handle guns because, as a group, they are not immature. It therefore follows that you should believe it's OK in principle for children to drive, drink alcohol, vote, etc., for the same reason. Sure those other activities are illegal, but it seems to me that that's the only reason you're against children engaging in them, and that if the law suddenly changed to eliminate the age limit on alcohol consumption, for example, you'd be OK with that. Personally, I can't see anything wrong with that logic, so perhaps you could explain more clearly why that logic is "failed logic"...
And how about a toddler, or baby even? Do you also believe it's OK for a toddler to handle a gun? If not, at what age does a child suddenly become mature enough?
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:19:14 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Lets see?Let us call it an ATF church, since Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are all regulated by the same agency. John so glad you have the Beaver Cleaver Family, and no problems like mine. I tell you something the Bible says foolishness is bound in the Heart of a child. Anyone with two hands, two legs, and half a brain knows a childs brain is not fully developed until age 18-20. That is why a child cannot buy a gun, a car, beer, tobbaco. I remember when I was a child my cousins, had BB and pellet guns at my grandma Smiths house, they nailed a bird to a tree, and executed it. It still bothers me many, many, years latter. I also have friends whose son they did not even know was suicidal, age 13, blew his brains out with his gun, they found brain matter in Christmas ornaments the next Christmas. My girls three of them, do not care about guns. Children, do not need guns, it is such it foolish to give a child one. Adults who are responsible would not give a child a gun. I think it great that adults that are qualified have the right to bear arms, that is a great freedom, that should never be taken away. Anyway " You will shoot your eye out kid."
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ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well John lets give them a six pack of beer, they are not mature enough ubtil twenty-one, but hey parents permission. Why Not? How about tabbaco? cripture does not have anything about that. I know condoms why not?
So you condemn the MILLIONS of families whos kids go hunting with their fathers? My I have several cousins who grew up hunting with their respective fathers. And none of them ever did anything wrong, none mis used the firearms at all! Your blanket judgment on kids and firearms shows a utter lack of knowledge and understanding into this area.
Stephanos, you're the one making blanket judgements here. Just because all the kids you knew were responsible with guns, doesn't mean that all children are responsible. Even if most children are responsible with guns as you believe - say 90% of children - that still leaves 10% who aren't responsible. Do you really think it's wise for one of them to handle a gun?
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:22:13 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4476
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Lets see?Let us call it an ATF church, since Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are all regulated by the same agency. John so glad you have the Beaver Cleaver Family, and no problems like mine. I tell you something the Bible says foolishness is bound in the Heart of a child. Anyone with two hands, two legs, and half a brain knows a childs brain is not fully developed until age 18-20. That is why a child cannot buy a gun, a car, beer, tobbaco. I remember when I was a child my cousins, had BB and pellet guns at my grandma Smiths house, they nailed a bird to a tree, and executed it. It still bothers me many, many, years latter. I also have friends whose son they did not even know was suicidal, age 13, blew his brains out with his gun, they found brain matter in Christmas ornaments the next Christmas. My girls three of them, do not care about guns. Children, do not need guns, it is such it foolish to give a child one. Adults who are responsible would not give a child a gun. I think it great that adults that are qualified have the right to bear arms, that is a great freedom, that should never be taken away. Anyway " You will shoot your eye out kid."
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well John lets give them a six pack of beer, they are not mature enough ubtil twenty-one, but hey parents permission. Why Not? How about tabbaco? cripture does not have anything about that. I know condoms why not?
Your emotional stance on the issues is my best rebuttal...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:34:15 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3471
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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Why is it a blanket statement? How many drive by are there? How many svhool shootings, accidental shootings? For sure you have haerd of these things Stephanos. I am not trying to argue with you friend, I just think kids and them owing guns, is a dangerous thing. BTW, I condem no one, my husband as kid spent hours in the woods of North Carolina hunting. It was not his guns, they were his dads which, he used with permission, they were locked up. I think I would never let my girls, go off in the woods with a firearm alone. I am afraid something would happen to them.
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ORIGINAL: Stephanos
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ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Lets see?Let us call it an ATF church, since Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are all regulated by the same agency. John so glad you have the Beaver Cleaver Family, and no problems like mine. I tell you something the Bible says foolishness is bound in the Heart of a child. Anyone with two hands, two legs, and half a brain knows a childs brain is not fully developed until age 18-20. That is why a child cannot buy a gun, a car, beer, tobbaco. I remember when I was a child my cousins, had BB and pellet guns at my grandma Smiths house, they nailed a bird to a tree, and executed it. It still bothers me many, many, years latter. I also have friends whose son they did not even know was suicidal, age 13, blew his brains out with his gun, they found brain matter in Christmas ornaments the next Christmas. My girls three of them, do not care about guns. Children, do not need guns, it is such it foolish to give a child one. Adults who are responsible would not give a child a gun. I think it great that adults that are qualified have the right to bear arms, that is a great freedom, that should never be taken away. Anyway " You will shoot your eye out kid."
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well John lets give them a six pack of beer, they are not mature enough ubtil twenty-one, but hey parents permission. Why Not? How about tabbaco? cripture does not have anything about that. I know condoms why not?
So you condemn the MILLIONS of families whos kids go hunting with their fathers? My I have several cousins who grew up hunting with their respective fathers. And none of them ever did anything wrong, none mis used the firearms at all! Your blanket judgment on kids and firearms shows a utter lack of knowledge and understanding into this area.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:44:49 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4476
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
Well, you're saying that it's OK for children to handle guns because, as a group, they are not immature.
I believe to say all children are not mature enough to handle a gun isn't valid... That doesn't equate to all children having the the maturty to handle them. Not all adults do, so of course all children don't... I have had to remove police from the firing range because they refused to obey the rules... As a group children follow the rules more than the adults do...
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It therefore follows that you should believe it's OK in principle for children to drive, drink alcohol, vote, etc., for the same reason.
Children do drive prior to being 18, in Germany they drink...
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Sure those other activities are illegal, but it seems to me that that's the only reason you're against children engaging in them, and that if the law suddenly changed to eliminate the age limit on alcohol consumption, for example, you'd be OK with that.
For some children yes... For more than few a glass of wine is common with a meal regardless of age... A 16 year old son having a cold beer with his dad working on the fence in the middle of nowhere isn't the end of the world...
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Personally, I can't see anything wrong with that logic, so perhaps you could explain more clearly why that logic is "failed logic"...
It's failed logic because you wish to apply something to everyone based more on what might happen due to what has here and there… Because some children are not mature enough all children are not… Well all adults are not mature enough to handle a gun, drive, consume alcohol and even vote… Your logic would dictate that all adults shouldn’t own guns, drink, drive and vote… Failed logic...
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And how about a toddler, or baby even? Do you also believe it's OK for a toddler to handle a gun? If not, at what age does a child suddenly become mature enough?
When they can communicate and reason in regards to the safe operation of a firearm... If you gathered from what I have posted that I would give a baby a gun that only reflects on you, not I...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:54:48 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3471
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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Um John, the only age a child should own a gun is over eighteen. I think it is sinful having a cool one with good, old dad, please encouraging a child to drink? Oklahoma is not Germany, and in Germany the little SS kids during Hitlers day, yes they carried guns, and shot jews. I do not care if they drive in Germany. Your point is what? Oklahoma is not Germany. You should see the children in our highschool parking lot, they drive like idiots, and rudely at that. They are immature, their brains have not developed. Get it?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:56:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4476
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Why is it a blanket statement? How many drive by are there? How many svhool shootings, accidental shootings? For sure you have haerd of these things Stephanos. I am not trying to argue with you friend, I just think kids and them owing guns, is a dangerous thing. BTW, I condem no one, my husband as kid spent hours in the woods of North Carolina hunting. It was not his guns, they were his dads which, he used with permission, they were locked up. I think I would never let my girls, go off in the woods with a firearm alone. I am afraid something would happen to them.
So the fact he didn't own the gun somehow made him mature enough to hunt with it? What stopped him from doing a drive by, shoot someone at school, or shooting himself? From your post I gather he was hunting alone, which by the way isn't a good idea...
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 10:59:32 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1328
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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It's pretty unfair to compare gang violence to a stable family that happens to enjoy target shooting or hunting.
I've never heard of a "drive by" using a rifle. I would think it would be kind of unweildy.
Every year, approximately 500 children under the age of 5 accidentally drown in residential swimming pools.
Every year, approximately 40 children under the age of 5 are accidentally killed by guns.
In 2005, 784 people in the US were killed riding bicycles.
Since 1998, on the entire planet, there have been 454 people killed in school shootings, most of which happened at that school in Russia when the armed group of terrorists took it over. Most of the shootings were not by children. (http://www.iansa.org/documents/2006/school-shootings-statistics.pdf for specifics)
July through December 2006, there were 549 drive-by shootings in the nation, the majority were perpetuated by urban gangs, the majority of the victims were adults (77%)
In the year 2000, the number of accidental firearm related deaths in children (ages 0-24) was 230. Total of all ages was 600.
Save your kid. Take away their bike, give them a gun.
*eyeroll*
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 11:02:57 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4476
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Um John, the only age a child should own a gun is over eighteen.
But it's ok for a child to hunt with one?
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I think it is sinful having a cool one with good, old dad, please encouraging a child to drink?
In the United States it is because it's against the law of the land... Of course not all nations share that law, so you claim of sin isn't all that valid...
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Oklahoma is not Germany,
Kids are kids....
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and in Germany the little SS kids during Hitlers day, yes they carried guns, and shot jews.
So did the adults... Your point?
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I do not care if they drive in Germany. Your point is what? Oklahoma is not Germany. You should see the children in our highschool parking lot, they drive like idiots, and rudely at that. They are immature, their brains have not developed. Get it?
I get that you believe all children are like those you see in the high school parking lot... Of course there doesn't seem to be an issue with your hubby hunting with a gun as a child... I guess he's not from around there?
John
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 11:07:31 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3471
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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Well, just because my husband went hunting alone does not mean I agree. I ain't his mama. If you want to give your kid a gun by all means do. The church has no business doing it foolish. I would never give one to my girls. We are a balanced family, and well, I plan to keep it that way. You give your kid a gun at your own risk, I will not do it. I love my girls way to much.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Church plans to give away a semi-auto assault rifle... - 7/16/2008 11:24:31 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Lets see?Let us call it an ATF church, since Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are all regulated by the same agency. John so glad you have the Beaver Cleaver Family, and no problems like mine. I tell you something the Bible says foolishness is bound in the Heart of a child. Anyone with two hands, two legs, and half a brain knows a childs brain is not fully developed until age 18-20. That is why a child cannot buy a gun, a car, beer, tobbaco. I remember when I was a child my cousins, had BB and pellet guns at my grandma Smiths house, they nailed a bird to a tree, and executed it. It still bothers me many, many, years latter. I also have friends whose son they did not even know was suicidal, age 13, blew his brains out with his gun, they found brain matter in Christmas ornaments the next Christmas. My girls three of them, do not care about guns. Children, do not need guns, it is such it foolish to give a child one. Adults who are responsible would not give a child a gun. I think it great that adults that are qualified have the right to bear arms, that is a great freedom, that should never be taken away. Anyway " You will shoot your eye out kid."
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Well John lets give them a six pack of beer, they are not mature enough ubtil twenty-one, but hey parents permission. Why Not? How about tabbaco? cripture does not have anything about that. I know condoms why not?
Your emotional stance on the issues is my best rebuttal...
John
Lights is emotional because she cares about childrens' lives. I'm sure you do too, but in a different way. Because she cares in this way doesn't mean that her arguments and experiences aren't valid.
Cheers,
Clayton.
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