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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 8:12:41 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
"Self defense" was simply a way to say what I was saying. Please don't get stuck on my semantics.
It implies something in regards to the taking of life...
quote:
You're saying it's morally better, again, if medically proven, to let both mother and child die than to save the mother's life?
I am asking why the child is always getting the short end of the stick...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 8:14:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Which is why I'm choosing to ignore SovereignisHe in this thread.
Wonderful...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 8:29:14 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1573
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From: Northern IL
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quote:
I'm not really looking at it from a legal standpoint, but from a moral one. If there's an exception because of the risk/low survival rate, then would a woman who has a "normal" but high-risk pregnancy that is euqivalent to that of an ectopic pregnancy be able to get one?
Like if the mother's life was at risk?
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Deb
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 8:38:26 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
"Self defense" was simply a way to say what I was saying. Please don't get stuck on my semantics.
It implies something in regards to the taking of life...
quote:
You're saying it's morally better, again, if medically proven, to let both mother and child die than to save the mother's life?
I am asking why the child is always getting the short end of the stick...
John
The child does. You're right. But I'm talking about a scenario where the child will die regardless. That is the stipulation. I'm asking you about a very specific scenario. Can you answer me about that very specific scenario please?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 8:45:36 PM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I am asking why the child is always getting the short end of the stick...
John
Which child though? If your so adamantly against abortion I'm sure I know where you stand on stem cell research as well. When a 10 day old zygote is "aborted" it consists of about 150 cells. Every time you scratch your nose you remove about 500 cells. The common housefly consists of about 50,000 cells. But the stem cells available in the 150 cell zygote could be used to save and drastically improve the life of a 2 year old with cerebral palsy. There are over 100,000 Americans alone diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease every year. Over a million will be diagnosed with diabetes.
Recent developments in stem cell research will lead to improved treatments, if not cures, for those affected by Alzheimer's disease, diabetes, spinal cord injury and countless other conditions. So would you have us place the value of the zygote above the value of all of those other lives? Do the parents of a miscarried child suffer as much as the parents of a lost 4 year old? I'm not saying the question of abortion isn't a difficult one, but I'm saying we have to pick the lesser of the evils.
If we go down the road of condemning all abortion as simply unethical, we close doors to other ethical requirements of us all. If you think you used to be a zygote, do you also think you will one day be a corpse? After you die nearly all of the trillions of cells in your body will remain fully functional and ALIVE for hours, some for days. Will you want your soul honored through complete protection of your body then too, or can we use your organs for someone else?
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 8:57:08 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
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Deb, I guess either one. I mean, with an ectopic they're pretty much both at risk, although I think even different types of ectopics have different likelihoods of surviving. I'm thinking if there is a baby in utero, but for some reason there is the same risk to both of them, is that then okay to terminate.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/18/2008 10:48:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
"Self defense" was simply a way to say what I was saying. Please don't get stuck on my semantics.
It implies something in regards to the taking of life...
quote:
You're saying it's morally better, again, if medically proven, to let both mother and child die than to save the mother's life?
I am asking why the child is always getting the short end of the stick...
John
The child does. You're right. But I'm talking about a scenario where the child will die regardless. That is the stipulation. I'm asking you about a very specific scenario. Can you answer me about that very specific scenario please?
Why is it that people like to take this argument to Fantasy Island?
Again, I am asking why the child is always getting the short end of the stick... Your scenario equates to what given the fact that 50,000,000 unborn children have been senselessly slaughtered according to another poster....
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 7/19/2008 12:07:00 AM >
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 12:13:46 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
Which child though? If your so adamantly against abortion I'm sure I know where you stand on stem cell research as well. When a 10 day old zygote is "aborted" it consists of about 150 cells. Every time you scratch your nose you remove about 500 cells. The common housefly consists of about 50,000 cells. But the stem cells available in the 150 cell zygote could be used to save and drastically improve the life of a 2 year old with cerebral palsy. There are over 100,000 Americans alone diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease every year. Over a million will be diagnosed with diabetes.
Recent developments in stem cell research will lead to improved treatments, if not cures, for those affected by Alzheimer's disease, diabetes, spinal cord injury and countless other conditions. So would you have us place the value of the zygote above the value of all of those other lives? Do the parents of a miscarried child suffer as much as the parents of a lost 4 year old? I'm not saying the question of abortion isn't a difficult one, but I'm saying we have to pick the lesser of the evils.
When you are willing to off yourself and give up your stem cells for the greaer good let me know...
quote:
If we go down the road of condemning all abortion as simply unethical, we close doors to other ethical requirements of us all.
How many unborn child do you belive should be sacrificed in order to meet this other ethical requirements...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 2:10:22 AM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
Which child though? If your so adamantly against abortion I'm sure I know where you stand on stem cell research as well. When a 10 day old zygote is "aborted" it consists of about 150 cells. Every time you scratch your nose you remove about 500 cells. The common housefly consists of about 50,000 cells. But the stem cells available in the 150 cell zygote could be used to save and drastically improve the life of a 2 year old with cerebral palsy. There are over 100,000 Americans alone diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease every year. Over a million will be diagnosed with diabetes.
Recent developments in stem cell research will lead to improved treatments, if not cures, for those affected by Alzheimer's disease, diabetes, spinal cord injury and countless other conditions. So would you have us place the value of the zygote above the value of all of those other lives? Do the parents of a miscarried child suffer as much as the parents of a lost 4 year old? I'm not saying the question of abortion isn't a difficult one, but I'm saying we have to pick the lesser of the evils.
When you are willing to off yourself and give up your stem cells for the greaer good let me know...
quote:
If we go down the road of condemning all abortion as simply unethical, we close doors to other ethical requirements of us all.
How many unborn child do you belive should be sacrificed in order to meet this other ethical requirements...
John
I'm only here to learn my dear sir, but if you won't give serious thought to and then answer my questions then I see no good reason to continue to put so much thought into my replies to you. I admitted this was a complicated issue. Perhaps one of the most complicated issues.
I don't mean to steer the thread off course but the stem cell issue isn't entirely tangential. You've asked how many unborn children should be sacrificed to meet "other" ethical requirements. I'll at least answer that but then I think we should start a stem cell specific thread before it gets out of hand in this one.
My answer is I don't know. I don't know how many embryos would have to be destroyed or how scientists are going to be allowed to do it. Perhaps only test tube generated zygotes will be allowed to be used. Perhaps only zygotes from fertility therapy. Apparently many are created. I wonder how many I would be willing to donate myself if my own child was sick and dieing. I wonder if my wife and I would donate them to save our living daughter, or if we would allow our "ethical" hangups to stop us from helping her. Would we let her die if we thought we could help that way?
I have to think we wouldn't be able to just let her die. I mentally live the scenario before I decide, so that I have as much of the frame of reference as I can possibly have before I decide. If I wouldn't do it for my own child, then perhaps I have the right to say it shouldn't be done. So, since I would sacrifice an unborn child to save my own child, I have to conclude that however ugly it is, it should be allowed.
When you're willing to look a 4 year old leukemia victim in the eyes and tell her your fine with her having one more year to live I'll be willing to side with you on the abortion issue. I have a feeling you're thinking "sure I would, her fate is in God's hands" and that is precisely the reason we don't allow faith into these decisions.
I guess maybe this is a question of what gives life value or maybe when life has the maximum value it can possibly have.
I think our interactions and relationships give each other's lives more value than they are worth alone. You seem to think that all life is of exactly equal value. It's very tempting to agree with you quite honestly.
Unfortunately, someone has to decide if one life matters more than another, or if all human life is to be valued exactly equally. Do we favor the life of a child who is known and loved by her parents or favor the unborn life that has no friends, perhaps no name, no eyesight, no hearing, no memories and no thoughts that it will ever remember?
Who decides? God? God has demonstrated His indifference billions of times over as innocent children have suffered torturous deaths throughout all of history. God has apparently even performed many abortions himself through miscarriages. I'd even venture to guess He has just a few more than 50,000,000 abortions to His credit. Apparently He doesn't have that much of a problem with it. I can't imagine He'd mind too much if we do a few ourselves to save some of our living kids. It is true that unborn life is SUPREMELY valuable, but I think the parents of the 4 year old would prefer it if we considered their daughter's life ever so slightly more valuable than the "life" of the 150 celled zygote with whom no one has ANY attachment whatsoever.
This sounds barbaric even to me, but again, ethical decisions aren't always going to be easy decisions. This is an ethical decision making game to end all ethical decision making games and yes, there are lives at stake. If your father were dieing of Parkinson's disease would you want the full power of science applied to his cure? I would. Would I care if a human embryo had to be destroyed while it's barely visible to the naked eye to do it? NOPE! The decision is easy on those terms.
< Message edited by wayward1 -- 7/19/2008 2:40:18 AM >
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 3:10:43 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 363
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
Who decides? God? God has demonstrated His indifference billions of times over as innocent children have suffered torturous deaths throughout all of history. God has apparently even performed many abortions himself through miscarriages. I'd even venture to guess He has just a few more than 50,000,000 abortions to His credit. Apparently He doesn't have that much of a problem with it. I can't imagine He'd mind too much if we do a few ourselves to save some of our living kids.
I have been following this thread but have not really responded. I have been in threads on abortion before and am basically seeing the same things debated again. I actually do not have as much time available to spend on this forum as I used to. However, after reading your comments about God above, I felt I needed to respond.
So you are arguing that God is indifferent to children who have suffered torturous deaths? You are arguing that God supernaturally causes miscarriages? Is there a place in the Bible where it says that God supernaturally caused a miscarriage to happen? (God not supernaturally stopping a miscarriage from happening is not the same as Him causing it to happen). (By the way, I am not saying there is not a place in the Bible where this is recorded, I am just not aware of it if it is.) Where did you get your idea of God's character from? If you say, the Bible, then you have gravely misunderstood what His Word says about Him. I do not have time to get into a big theological debate over this now and this would also be off-topic and probably would be better suited to the God folder, so I will just say a couple of things.
God allowing deaths to occur does not mean He is indifferent to them. God allowing miscarriages to happen does not mean he does not care and does not mean He causes them to happen. Humans, not God, are responsible for the death and destruction in the world - including miscarriages. Death and destruction were not part of God's original creation. They entered in after Adam and Eve's sin. Since the Fall, death has been here and will continue to be here until Jesus returns. If you are going to point to places in the OT where it says that God commanded the Jews to wipe out certain people (included women and children) to try to make your case...this was God's holy judgement. Yes, God is love but He is also holy. As fallen humans, we may not always understand God's actions, but we should always trust that whatever He did and does is right, just, and holy. Since God is holy, all of His actions are holy.
Also, if I am not mistaken, in some of your earlier posts, you seem to be making the argument that the unborn baby is a part of the mother until the baby is born. So I can fully understand your argument here, are you trying to say that you believe that the unborn baby is actually a part of the mother's body? Or are you trying to say that since the baby is inside of the mother, the mother should have the right to decide what happens to the baby's life?
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 4:16:46 AM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
So you are arguing that God is indifferent to children who have suffered torturous deaths?
Well no because that would be against my religion. But I am arguing that holding the belief that God is omnipotent would logically require a person to also believe that God could stop every child's suffering but chooses not to.
quote:
You are arguing that God supernaturally causes miscarriages?
I am arguing that an omnipotent, omniscient being would have knowledge of the impending miscarriage and be able to stop it if He wanted to. He is therefore guilty by inaction. Or even worse, it is also possible that the miscarriage is part of his plan for that family to test them.
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Is there a place in the Bible where it says that God supernaturally caused a miscarriage to happen?
Doubt it, but does something have to be in the Bible for God to be capable of it?
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(God not supernaturally stopping a miscarriage from happening is not the same as Him causing it to happen).
Isn't it? If someone knows your mother is going to die and doesn't stop it, are they guilty of any crime?
I don't know the answer to what I'm about to ask you but is everything God's will or isn't it? It seems Christians are fond of considering pleasant things to be the result of the will of God and unpleasant things to be the result of the free will of man. Tell me though, if an unborn child dies, how can this be blamed on anyone but God. The bible leads me to believe we are meant to be born with original sin, but what of the unborn? I can't find a way to blame any human for such a death, unless the mother was consciously unhealthy, so if God's plan is playing out just as He intended, then there's only one place left for the blame, and that's on God. Or we can consider it to be something entirely different, and entirely more likely.
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(By the way, I am not saying there is not a place in the Bible where this is recorded, I am just not aware of it if it is.) Where did you get your idea of God's character from? If you say, the Bible, then you have gravely misunderstood what His Word says about Him. I do not have time to get into a big theological debate over this now and this would also be off-topic and probably would be better suited to the God folder, so I will just say a couple of things.
God allowing deaths to occur does not mean He is indifferent to them. God allowing miscarriages to happen does not mean he does not care and does not mean He causes them to happen. Humans, not God, are responsible for the death and destruction in the world - including miscarriages.
Well, I'd like to think miscarriages are often no human's fault at all, but rather the unfortunate result of nature's imperfection.
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Death and destruction were not part of God's original creation.
So God has simply lost control then. It's all out of His hands now. Either that or He can stop it but refuses to. Then "whence cometh evil but from the Lord"?
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They entered in after Adam and Eve's sin.
So God couldn't tell this was going to happen. So is he omniscient or not? Again, if God is all knowing, then Eve's actions were part of his plan and again, "then whence cometh evil?" If He didn't know what she was going to do then He's not omniscient. In either case, why call Him God?
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Since the Fall, death has been here and will continue to be here until Jesus returns. If you are going to point to places in the OT where it says that God commanded the Jews to wipe out certain people (included women and children) to try to make your case...this was God's holy judgement. Yes, God is love but He is also holy. As fallen humans, we may not always understand God's actions, but we should always trust that whatever He did and does is right, just, and holy. Since God is holy, all of His actions are holy.
I don't intend to pull any OT anything out of my hat. I don't accept biblical justification so I don't offer biblical refutation.
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Also, if I am not mistaken, in some of your earlier posts, you seem to be making the argument that the unborn baby is a part of the mother until the baby is born. So I can fully understand your argument here, are you trying to say that you believe that the unborn baby is actually a part of the mother's body? Or are you trying to say that since the baby is inside of the mother, the mother should have the right to decide what happens to the baby's life?
Uh, the second one more than the first. But really that was meant to work toward establishing where we should draw this "value" line.
< Message edited by wayward1 -- 7/19/2008 5:15:46 AM >
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 10:39:34 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
I'm only here to learn my dear sir, but if you won't give serious thought to and then answer my questions then I see no good reason to continue to put so much thought into my replies to you. I admitted this was a complicated issue. Perhaps one of the most complicated issues.
I was serious... And apparently when it comes down to it you are not willing to put yourself where you will have the unborn...
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I have to think we wouldn't be able to just let her die. I mentally live the scenario before I decide, so that I have as much of the frame of reference as I can possibly have before I decide. If I wouldn't do it for my own child, then perhaps I have the right to say it shouldn't be done. So, since I would sacrifice an unborn child to save my own child, I have to conclude that however ugly it is, it should be allowed.
Yet you wouldn't sacrifice yourself...
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When you're willing to look a 4 year old leukemia victim in the eyes and tell her your fine with her having one more year to live I'll be willing to side with you on the abortion issue.
I will see your 4 year old leukemia victim and raise you 50,000,000 dead unborn children...
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I have a feeling you're thinking "sure I would, her fate is in God's hands" and that is precisely the reason we don't allow faith into these decisions.
Well her fate is in God's hands, as is everyone's.... Regardless of what is or isn't done...
quote:
Unfortunately, someone has to decide if one life matters more than another, or if all human life is to be valued exactly equally. Do we favor the life of a child who is known and loved by her parents or favor the unborn life that has no friends, perhaps no name, no eyesight, no hearing, no memories and no thoughts that it will ever remember?
It's not a matter of favor... It's a matter of what is just and unjust... To murder the unborn to save even a 4 year old is still murder...
quote:
Who decides? God? God has demonstrated His indifference billions of times over as innocent children have suffered torturous deaths throughout all of history. God has apparently even performed many abortions himself through miscarriages. I'd even venture to guess He has just a few more than 50,000,000 abortions to His credit. Apparently He doesn't have that much of a problem with it. I can't imagine He'd mind too much if we do a few ourselves to save some of our living kids. It is true that unborn life is SUPREMELY valuable, but I think the parents of the 4 year old would prefer it if we considered their daughter's life ever so slightly more valuable than the "life" of the 150 celled zygote with whom no one has ANY attachment whatsoever.
Very thin ice... I would suggest it's a very dangerous view to hold that because God allows evil we should perform it... I will concede that even though I believe with all my heart that God is in complete control I cannot grasp why He doesn't stop evil things... Since all things are a matter of faith I rest on the fact that all things work to the good of those who love the Lord... And I will not question His motives, and or His ways.... I will humbly say that if not for His mercy there be none to be saved...
quote:
This sounds barbaric even to me, but again, ethical decisions aren't always going to be easy decisions. This is an ethical decision making game to end all ethical decision making games and yes, there are lives at stake. If your father were dieing of Parkinson's disease would you want the full power of science applied to his cure? I would. Would I care if a human embryo had to be destroyed while it's barely visible to the naked eye to do it? NOPE! The decision is easy on those terms.
If the full power of science meant that unborn children had to murdered to save his life, no... And my dad would rather die... Since it is a matter of faith...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 1:48:08 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
"Self defense" was simply a way to say what I was saying. Please don't get stuck on my semantics.
It implies something in regards to the taking of life...
quote:
You're saying it's morally better, again, if medically proven, to let both mother and child die than to save the mother's life?
I am asking why the child is always getting the short end of the stick...
John
The child does. You're right. But I'm talking about a scenario where the child will die regardless. That is the stipulation. I'm asking you about a very specific scenario. Can you answer me about that very specific scenario please?
Why is it that people like to take this argument to Fantasy Island?
Again, I am asking why the child is always getting the short end of the stick... Your scenario equates to what given the fact that 50,000,000 unborn children have been senselessly slaughtered according to another poster....
John
You don't like answering questions, do you? You have avoided many in our discussions.
I am not advocating any other scenario at all, in fact I campaign locally to abolish abortion. I completely agree with you.
I am NOT arguing for abortion, but am simply bringing up one scenario where I think it might be acceptable, and asking others to weigh in on it. Why can you not do that?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 2:08:17 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6923
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I am NOT arguing for abortion, but am simply bringing up one scenario where I think it might be acceptable, and asking others to weigh in on it. Why can you not do that?
I can't remember if it was you or not who brought up ectopic pregnancies. It is a valid point. One that I'm still thinking about.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 2:32:44 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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It was not. In fact, it was me who had never heard of the concept. 
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 2:53:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
You don't like answering questions, do you? You have avoided many in our discussions.
Try again, since the last thing I do is avoid things around here... I askd why child always get the short of the stick and you ignored it twice... You said you agree but that doesn't answer to why... Your scenario is so far from the spectrum of the reality of abortion that I don't see its purpose...
quote:
I am NOT arguing for abortion, but am simply bringing up one scenario where I think it might be acceptable, and asking others to weigh in on it. Why can you not do that?
How are you not arguing for abortion if think your scenario might be acceptable? Given the reality of abortion what does your scenario represent?
My first thought is you try to save both mother and child... This idea that we have to kill one to save the other and somehow that can be proven beyond some resonable doubt is shaky ground in regards to making the call to end the life of the child..
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 3:16:36 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
You don't like answering questions, do you? You have avoided many in our discussions.
Try again, since the last thing I do is avoid things around here... I askd why child always get the short of the stick and you ignored it twice... You said you agree but that doesn't answer to why... Your scenario is so far from the spectrum of the reality of abortion that I don't see its purpose...
quote:
I am NOT arguing for abortion, but am simply bringing up one scenario where I think it might be acceptable, and asking others to weigh in on it. Why can you not do that?
How are you not arguing for abortion if think your scenario might be acceptable? Given the reality of abortion what does your scenario represent?
My first thought is you try to save both mother and child... This idea that we have to kill one to save the other and somehow that can be proven beyond some resonable doubt is shaky ground in regards to making the call to end the life of the child..
John
You cannot answer a question by simply ignoring it and asking a different one.
Believe me, I realize that this is an incredibly rare at best scenario. Of course you try to save the mother and the child. I'm not saying not to do that. Can you not just say "Yes, I would rather both the mother and the child die than save the mother's life with surgery which results in the child's death." or, "No, I would rather save the mother's life with surgery which results in the child's death than both the mother and child die." Why can you not just answer the question?
I haven't ignored your "short end of the stick" question. I said I don't know why that happens, and that it's a shame. Abortion is horrible. You seem to think that since I'm presenting you with this one scenario that I'm all pro-abortion or something. That's not the case. I'm simply asking you to give me a direct response to a scenario instead of insinuating that since the scenario is incredibly unlikely, it's not worth answering clearly.
Again, if you forgot, the scenario is this:
If it has already been medically proven beyond a reasonable doubt (the same margin used in court) that the mother and child are both going to die without this surgery (regardless of how that proof had come about), which would be better, to watch them both die or to allow one of them to live, even if the only one that was possible for was the mother?
I am not talking about "the reality of abortion" now. I'm saying that there may be plausible exceptions we should discuss. Please answer my question about the scenario.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 3:37:25 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I am NOT arguing for abortion, but am simply bringing up one scenario where I think it might be acceptable, and asking others to weigh in on it. Why can you not do that?
I can't remember if it was you or not who brought up ectopic pregnancies. It is a valid point. One that I'm still thinking about.
I brought it up. :) (Unless it had been brought up some pages back.)
I know my own opinion on ectopics, but what gets me is that some Chrstians say they are always against aborting/killing an embryo or fetus...anytime at/after conception, but ectopics are many times alive when they are terminated (not all the time)... even pro-live Christians that say they are always against abortion get their own ectopics aborted. It just seems like they go against their own beliefs then (to me). But the fact of it is, they still both can live. It does indeed happen. We know it's entirely possible, however small the chance. Why is it that an ectopic abortion seems to be okay to some 100% pro-life Christians... if killing an embryo is murder (killing anything at/after conception is murder), why isn't aborting an ectopic that's alive murder too... they were well past conception (not asking you specifically, Denim, just in general).
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 3:51:43 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6923
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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I've always believed that life of the mother is a valid reason for an abortion. I don't view a woman saving her life as a murderer. She's in a tough place that is between her and God. She needs our prayers that she'll will make the right decision- sometimes that decision means abortion, sometimes not. She certainly doesn't need condemnation from Christians who aren't walking in her shoes. I about fell out of my chair when I posted that about a year ago on these boards and I got blasted by several here.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 3:53:40 PM
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wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I was serious... And apparently when it comes down to it you are not willing to put yourself where you will have the unborn...
I'm sorry but I sincerely do not understand what you mean by "you are not willing to put yourself where you will have the unborn..." Does this mean I won't put myself in the unborn's shoes? If it does then I must have missed where you asserted that I should. I'll get to this in a minute.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Yet you wouldn't sacrifice yourself...
Oh but I would. I'm sorry if I missed it when you said this. I would give my life to save my child. It is demonstrated over and over again that parents are willing to do this. Would I give my life to save another person's child? On some terms, as in military combat, but probably not on a direct voluntary basis, as in, I walk in lie down and die so that my neighbor's child can live. This only establishes the sacredness of the family unit though. Now that I have everything to live for, like my family and friends, my life is well established as valuable to others like my parents and children. If I were snuffed out before any of this could happen then I wouldn't know what I was missing, therefore I wouldn't miss any of it, therefore it is those relationships that give my life its ultimate value. Your argument assumes an unborn child can choose or regret.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I will see your 4 year old leukemia victim and raise you 50,000,000 dead unborn children...
That's not a raise. You'll have to see my bet before you can raise.
My 4 year old is more valuable to me than a billion unknowable embryos. Again, I know it sounds barbaric, but I would kill a thousand other living people to save her life, not arbitrarily, but if they threatened her life. I guess we have to decide if allowing the zygote to live that is meant for stem cell research poses a threat to my daughter. I say it does by inaction. If we're forced to assign value, then I assign the highest value to the life of my own child. History demonstrates that I'm far from alone in this approach.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Well her fate is in God's hands, as is everyone's.... Regardless of what is or isn't done...
And again, that's why we don't allow faith into decisions like this.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
It's not a matter of favor... It's a matter of what is just and unjust... To murder the unborn to save even a 4 year old is still murder...
On some level you're probably right, but just as their are degrees of murder for living breathing walking people, perhaps there should be a 4th degree of "murder" for the unborn that warrants only psychological and emotional punishment
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Very thin ice... I would suggest it's a very dangerous view to hold that because God allows evil we should perform it... I will concede that even though I believe with all my heart that God is in complete control I cannot grasp why He doesn't stop evil things... Since all things are a matter of faith I rest on the fact that all things work to the good of those who love the Lord... And I will not question His motives, and or His ways.... I will humbly say that if not for His mercy there be none to be saved...
Thanks for being honest about how it confounds you that God does not fix the evils of the world... It confounds me also. The way you get around it is different from the way I get around it though. By your method I'm put to mind of a line in Rick Warren's book "The Purpose Driven Life" that says "surrendered people obey God’s word, even if it doesn’t make sense" It is this unquestioning followership that has driven me from Christianity. To me nearly nothing could be more unhealthy to the mind.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If the full power of science meant that unborn children had to murdered to save his life, no... And my dad would rather die... Since it is a matter of faith...
John
Again John, surrendered people obey God’s word, even if it doesn’t make sense.
< Message edited by wayward1 -- 7/19/2008 4:03:11 PM >
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 4:27:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
You cannot answer a question by simply ignoring it and asking a different one.
I didn't ignore it, nor did ask a different one... If you don't like my answer that it your choice... You built a question that for the most has only one answer, if really one at all..
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Believe me, I realize that this is an incredibly rare at best scenario. Of course you try to save the mother and the child. I'm not saying not to do that. Can you not just say "Yes, I would rather both the mother and the child die than save the mother's life with surgery which results in the child's death." or, "No, I would rather save the mother's life with surgery which results in the child's death than both the mother and child die." Why can you not just answer the question?
Maybe for the same reason you can't answer why the child gets the short end of the stick... And for the record, my quesiton isn't some rigid made up scenario liken to something King Solomon had to deal with...
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I haven't ignored your "short end of the stick" question. I said I don't know why that happens, and that it's a shame. Abortion is horrible.
You honestly don't know why unborn children get the short end of the stick?
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You seem to think that since I'm presenting you with this one scenario that I'm all pro-abortion or something. That's not the case. I'm simply asking you to give me a direct response to a scenario instead of insinuating that since the scenario is incredibly unlikely, it's not worth answering clearly.
I am just wonder why you are looking for a real answer to something that doesn't appear to be real...
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Again, if you forgot, the scenario is this:
If it has already been medically proven beyond a reasonable doubt (the same margin used in court) that the mother and child are both going to die without this surgery (regardless of how that proof had come about), which would be better, to watch them both die or to allow one of them to live, even if the only one that was possible for was the mother?
Your scenario seems to be skewed so in order to leave one with only one answer...
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I am not talking about "the reality of abortion" now. I'm saying that there may be plausible exceptions we should discuss. Please answer my question about the scenario.
Shouldn't you prove the actual viability of your plausible exceptions first before you make the declaration the child should be judge worthy of having its life taken?
The idea itself that one giving up its life for the other to live on the surface isn't bad...
Take your scenario out side the womb... Given how much you are molding the scenario it shouldn't matter...
In my opinion there would have to be an attempt to save both lives and in the course of that the baby or the mother died so be it...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/19/2008 4:46:59 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
Oh but I would. I'm sorry if I missed it when you said this. I would give my life to save my child. It is demonstrated over and over again that parents are willing to do this.
Not every parent... I don't believe those who would abort their child would later give their life for them... They might talk about it, but when push comes to shove I believe they will balk...
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Would I give my life to save another person's child? On some terms, as in military combat, but probably not on a direct voluntary basis, as in, I walk in lie down and die so that my neighbor's child can live. This only establishes the sacredness of the family unit though. Now that I have everything to live for, like my family and friends, my life is well established as valuable to others like my parents and children. If I were snuffed out before any of this could happen then I wouldn't know what I was missing, therefore I wouldn't miss any of it, therefore it is those relationships that give my life its ultimate value. Your argument assumes an unborn child can choose or regret.
My argument assumes that taking of life apart from the lawful causes is unjust, no matter how much you attempt to devalue it.
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That's not a raise. You'll have to see my bet before you can raise.
That's easy, since 3500 unnborn children were murdered today....
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My 4 year old is more valuable to me than a billion unknowable embryos. Again, I know it sounds barbaric, but I would kill a thousand other living people to save her life, not arbitrarily, but if they threatened her life. I guess we have to decide if allowing the zygote to live that is meant for stem cell research poses a threat to my daughter. I say it does by inaction. If we're forced to assign value, then I assign the highest value to the life of my own child. History demonstrates that I'm far from alone in this approach.
History demonstrates that makind is selfish by nature so I agree with you...
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And again, that's why we don't allow faith into decisions like this.
Doesn't change the fact that God is in control... All the stem cells in the world will not change a thing that God has ordained, one of things being the day you kick the bucket...
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On some level you're probably right, but just as their are degrees of murder for living breathing walking people, perhaps there should be a 4th degree of "murder" for the unborn that warrants only psychological and emotional punishment
What if someone thought their life had more vaule than yours and gave you the same regards you are giving to the unborn... Given your nature I believe you'd scream foul very loud... Lucky for you someone can hear you...
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Thanks for being honest about how it confounds you that God does not fix the evils of the world... It con | | |
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