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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/22/2008 8:26:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
It's a belief that no debate can shake... It's not I but what is in me that holds me upright... My worth is liken to a vapor and apart from the grace of God I not worthy to invoke His name...
To me you are worth far more.
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That's how far beyond help I am in your way of thinking...
Until I say such a thing, or even something from which you can logically deduce such a thing, please refrain from assuming it is my belief.
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I am sorry you got the impression I slacked off on my belief, I thought I was rather clear...
You gave no such impression. You simply stopped using the word "know". You can have unwavering belief. But until you are willing to grant people of all faiths the kind of credibility that would come with real "knowledge" of their God, you simply can't use KNOW. If Muslims correctly knew that Allah was God then there would be no logical reason to stop them from acting with absolute confidence on the word of the Hadith and Koran.
We, as just plain forward thinking 21st century American humans, simply CANNOT tolerate use of words like KNOWLEDGE regarding our beliefs about the afterlife. If we do, then we are getting what's coming to us when other "less modern" people do the same thing and happen to find their religious texts direct them to kill us.
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I was merely honoring your words...
Again, the requirement to stop taking you seriously only arises when you insist that you possess actual real knowledge of God and what will happen when I die. When discussing the afterlife and God, to remain on good and justifiable ground in any mode of discourse, you can "believe" anything you want, pray for anything you want, hope for anything you want and have faith in anything you want, but you cannot know. It's not merely a technicality. It's a vital distinction.
What ten Christians choose to sit in a corner and say to one another is up to them. But when you engage people who are not necessarily of your same views, you don't get to assert your views as unquestionable to ALL. I wouldn't do it to you and I expect you to not do it to me.
I expect you to shun me exactly the same way the minute I start spouting off about knowing you will one day meet your maker Zeus, or even if I merely assert that my naturalistic views are "unquestionable". We simply cannot take such people seriously or we condone their logical fallacy and go down a very dangerous road.
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Though to be honest I really don't see how much more conversation between us can be edifying.
Then we are different. I would talk to you forever. Only one of us can be correct. If it is you, then I want to learn that truth.
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In truth you believe I am intellectually depraved and I believe....
Again, please refrain from putting such words in my mouth. If you feel intellectually depraved that is a you problem, not a me problem.
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Well I'll just hold my tongue and let your own words stand.
You think I'll go to hell. It's not like you needed to let loose your tongue for that one.
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I may respond to something you post, but I am not sure there would be much point in do so...
Funny, it's usually the secularist who washes his hands of the saved and declares them to be "beyond hope". I would have expected you to extend the olive branch and hope to befriend me. Does your faith not lend itself to such grace? If it doesn't, it should.
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Btw... There is a time for everything even cutting people off... And that goes for those who believe and don't believe with the hope they repent and come back...
John
Yes there is, and I've explained when. Merely disagreeing is the furthest possible thing from "grounds for cutting people off". It's telling, but it's not grounds for quitting.
I know you will face God...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 3:36:58 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6308
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
there are necessary evils
Evil nonetheless...
John
So who are you voting for in the elections then?
He wasn't talking about voting, but taking the life of others to save those one who he judged their life to have more value...
I can't vote for Obama because He without a doubt supports the right to murder children, and homosexual agenda... McCain stance on abortion is a lot better... I may be left with no choice...
John
Then you will be just as guilty of abortion by voting for someone who supports it.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 3:38:59 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6308
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
David repented and God still took the life of his son for David's actions... Moses repented, yet never made it to the promise land... The thief on the cross repented yet still was justly put to death for his deeds... People sincerely repent and are still sent to prison, rightly so... Repenting makes one right with God eternally, not always temporally...
John
Paul as a murderer.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 3:42:00 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6308
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Compassion for whom? When people don't like that fact I speak frank and honest about the topic they play the compassion card and all of sudden MOST who have abortion struggle with it, yet most who have abortion have had more than one, so that really doesn't jive... Compassion in regards to this topic rarely gets a mention in regards to the victim of every abortion, the child...
Where did you get your info about the part I bolded? Links please.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 3:43:44 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6308
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Any person, Christian or otherwise.
But why should a person not of your faith follow your religion's rules? Some religions say Abortion is not a sin. If I said you had to follow the Five Pillars of Islam, that would not be fair. If I said you had to perform a ritual at the beach ever year to honor Neptune, would you do it?
This message isn't just to you, but to all the people who just say "I don't believe in abortion because God says it's wrong." If that's the only reason why you think abortion is wrong, don't expect people to listen to you. We aren't the only religion out there, and if we want others to listen to our opinions, we need to show them some respect.
Not all pro lifers are Christians.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 3:46:11 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6308
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
According to Numb 35:31 there are criminals which "deserves to die". In the Bible the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
1. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
John
Glad to hear that you never committed any of those sins.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 4:05:54 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 63
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
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Wayward, hello,
I guess we refer to the NT mostly because basically that is where we live.
But the OT is the foundation for what we believe. Even if we quote NT the Ot lies in the background. I can't see how it can be negated. It gives us understanding.
As Paul says, without the 10 commandments, we wouldn't know what sin is.......( in God's eyes). Without the OT and all of it's ventures it just might be hard to understand the NT. We learn about and appreciate thier struggle and can well compare them to us in today's world.
This is one of my favorite verses:
In 2 Tim3:16
ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for dictrine,
for reproof,
for correction,
for instruction in righteousness,
17. that the man of God may be complete,
thoroughly equipped for every good work.
I take this to include the OT as well as the NT. I will use both, even together, to make a point.
It leaves the whole Bible as a playground, if you will.
Of course you just have my opinion, but it might be interesting to find what others have to say.
I admire that you are thinking. Keep it up!
BJ
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 5:30:36 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 63
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
If abortion is murder, should a woman who has an abortion be sentenced to the same punishment as someone who murders a person outside of the womb?
What about the abortionist?
Yep, both of them should be tried for Murder One.
************************************************************************
Sorry, I haven't gotten the hang of putting quotes in a box. All of the above are quotes.
Just pointing out that when we started this thread.........We were all into punishing WOMEN (and abortionists) who have had an abortion. Charging them with murder.
(We kind of come to the conclusion there we too many.)
Then we come along and decided that that baby had a father somewhere. Where was he in all of this? Couldn't he be just as guilty? There we go, we have another culprit to hang.
Once we've murdered all of the murders.............
John, You are stuck on having a tempoal punishment for the guilty. For all crimes there is a temporal punishment. Abortion, unfortunately, is legal! All other crimes, are punishable, and those who commit them must serve their time, accordingly. And that is, as God commands, it for the Christian as for any other. Criminal's have gone to there deaths even though they have found Christ, after their crime. Being a Christian, doesn't save him from his eathly due.
We, as Christians, as a whole, understand abortion as a crime. We want it stopped. At the moment, I don't know what can be done to change things. Others have ernestly tried. We voted in a President, in hopes he could bring it to an end, but didn't.
We have to hug our daughter's close, and fathers have to enlighten those daughter's that love comes with different meanings between the sexes. Father's love those daughter in a manner that they aren't seeking love in the wrong places. Parents have to give them ammunition to meet the world wisely. We must not allow our son's permission, "Boy's will be boys, etc."
(Hmmmm, Parents......now there we have another couple of culprits.....)
We can fight back and it must start in our homes!
We as Christians, also, understand another thing. This is where we lose you, John.,
Until, this evil can be brought to an end. We know that the body can be distroyed, but humans or other created beings can not destroy the soul. Only God can do that. And this is our hope in times of persecution. In one sense, this is just what this whole thing is about.
This is my last post on this subject..............
God's grace to all who are well intended.
BJ
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 5:40:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: wayward1
there are necessary evils
Evil nonetheless...
John
So who are you voting for in the elections then?
He wasn't talking about voting, but taking the life of others to save those one who he judged their life to have more value...
I can't vote for Obama because He without a doubt supports the right to murder children, and homosexual agenda... McCain stance on abortion is a lot better... I may be left with no choice...
John
Then you will be just as guilty of abortion by voting for someone who supports it.
What have I posted that would lead you to believe I would vote for someone who would support abortion?
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 5:56:12 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
Then we come along and decided that that baby had a father somewhere. Where was he in all of this? Couldn't he be just as guilty? There we go, we have another culprit to hang.
Once we've murdered all of the murders.............
People justly being punished isn't a sin... And I don't know about the others, I have never gave the fathers a free ride... I believe the issue there for most people is that the father has no legal standing so therefore isn't part of the equation in most people's eyes...
quote:
John, You are stuck on having a tempoal punishment for the guilty. For all crimes there is a temporal punishment. Abortion, unfortunately, is legal! All other crimes, are punishable, and those who commit them must serve their time, accordingly. And that is, as God commands, it for the Christian as for any other. Criminal's have gone to there deaths even though they have found Christ, after their crime. Being a Christian, doesn't save him from his eathly due.
You have simply repeated what I have been saying... And what I am stuck with are people who deny what is self evident...
Btw... Do you believe those who murder in the womb should be treated the same as those who murder outside the womb? The fact that abortion is legal doesn't grant any relief for those doing it, and it put the God ordained athority is terrible place, as well it's unjust to those who murder outside the womb to convict them why 3500 unborn children are murdered daily...
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We, as Christians, as a whole, understand abortion as a crime.
From the replies on this thread I think you are assuming to much...Any talk of treating it like a crime and you get blasted... No compassion, legalism...
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We as Christians, also, understand another thing. This is where we lose you, John.,
Until, this evil can be brought to an end. We know that the body can be distroyed, but humans or other created beings can not destroy the soul. Only God can do that. And this is our hope in times of persecution. In one sense, this is just what this whole thing is about.
Where is goes off the track is the lack of understand between the temporal and eternal... People here are not arguing from this place, they are making excues for behavior... There is no biblical reasoning that says it's ok to treat those who murder in the womb as if they didn't do it, but the guy who murders the clerk at 7-11 is bad and should be locked up... I believe God is in complete control, all the abortions in the world don't put even a dent in His plan... That's not the point... It's wrong, evil and to say it's less than cold blooded murder is to make excuses...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 10:06:58 PM
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fallenstar
Posts: 127
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
If abortion is murder, and it is against the ten commandments to not murder, then Christian women and men should not be allowed to serve in the military and fight in a war,
If killing in war is always murder God's people by His command did so....
quote:
all Christians should be vegetarian,
Jesus didn't serve salad only when He fed the thousands...
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and no Christian should support the death penalty.
Someone being justly put to death isn't murder... If so, Moses murdered thousands who didn't choose God...
quote:
Don't even tell me "I don't believe in murder" if you can kill a grown adult. Even if they "deserve it", you can't if you truly practice what you preach.
Crimes that deserved the death according to the Bible...
According to Numb 35:31 there are criminals which "deserves to die". In the Bible the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
1. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
John
Anybody who honestly believes in all this stuff is a sexist, homophobic, intolerant murderer. Why should a woman be murdered if she has intercourse before marriage? What makes women any lower than men? It's okay to rape a woman is she is'nt engaged? If I can't go to church or I have to work on Sunday I deserve to die? If a person cheats on their spouse why can't they just get a divorce? Many marriages back then were loveless so the relationship did'nt mean anything anyways. As for homosexuals, why should they be killed? Did they hurt anybody? No, they did'nt so what's it to you.
This is sick and twisted. What a way to star a war.
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 10:24:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
If abortion is murder, and it is against the ten commandments to not murder, then Christian women and men should not be allowed to serve in the military and fight in a war,
If killing in war is always murder God's people by His command did so....
quote:
all Christians should be vegetarian,
Jesus didn't serve salad only when He fed the thousands...
quote:
and no Christian should support the death penalty.
Someone being justly put to death isn't murder... If so, Moses murdered thousands who didn't choose God...
quote:
Don't even tell me "I don't believe in murder" if you can kill a grown adult. Even if they "deserve it", you can't if you truly practice what you preach.
Crimes that deserved the death according to the Bible...
According to Numb 35:31 there are criminals which "deserves to die". In the Bible the following crimes deserved the death penalty:
1. Murder (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21).
2. Abuse of father or mother (Ex 21:15).
3. Speaking a curse over parents (Ex 21:17).
4. Blasphemy against God (Lev 24:14-16,23).
5. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
6. Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
7. Fortune telling and practicing sorcery (Lev 20:27).
8. Religious people who mislead others to fall away (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
9. Adultery and fornication (Lev 20:10-12, Deut 22:22).
10. If a woman has intercourse before marriage (Deut 22:20-21).
11. If two people have intercourse when one of them is engaged. (Deut 22:23-24).
12. The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (Lev 21:9).
13. Rape of someone who is engaged (Deut 22:25).
14. Having intercourse with animals (Ex 22:19).
15. Worshipping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
16. Incest (Lev 20:11-12, 14, 19-21).
17. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13).
18. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16).
19. To bear false testimony at a trial (Deut 19:16, 19).
20. Contempt of court (Deut 17:8-13).
John
Anybody who honestly believes in all this stuff is a sexist, homophobic, intolerant murderer. Why should a woman be murdered if she has intercourse before marriage? What makes women any lower than men? It's okay to rape a woman is she is'nt engaged? If I can't go to church or I have to work on Sunday I deserve to die? If a person cheats on their spouse why can't they just get a divorce? Many marriages back then were loveless so the relationship did'nt mean anything anyways. As for homosexuals, why should they be killed? Did they hurt anybody? No, they did'nt so what's it to you.
This is sick and twisted. What a way to star a war.
That would make God a sexist, homophobic, intolerant murderer since I merely quoted His Holy word...
John
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RE: If Abortion is Murder - 7/23/2008 10:38:00 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 8558
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
What makes women any lower than men?
The Bible speaks about this, not exactly defining woman as "lower", but it does talk this subject.
I won't comment further for the knowledge that everyone and their grandma takes everything out of context here.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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