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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/21/2008 9:30:20 PM
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Jhud
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You cant have creationism without ignorance. Muslim, Christian, Hindu or Jew... the religion is irrelevant. Renown 'thinker' or not, creationism is ignorance.
What?! How are you defining creationism here?
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Those are some mighty think rose colored glasses there.
No, just not kneee-jerk reflexive ones.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/21/2008 11:38:49 PM
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Method
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, Muslims, Jews, Christians, and any other theistic belief have common cause in resisting overt imposition of Secularism.
What happened to "live in the world but not of the world"? From my understanding Jesus never argued against a secular society, and in fact argued against religious impositions on some occasions.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 2:32:01 AM
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Jhud
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What happened to "live in the world but not of the world"? From my understanding Jesus never argued against a secular society, and in fact argued against religious impositions on some occasions.
Well, Jesus, while here on earth, spoke to everyone in the Jewish society in which He taught and preached, and did so even when authorities (religious and otherwise) opposed Him. And of course His disciples engaged people from all walks of life, and resisted many attempts to silence them. In fact, not being 'of the world' means that we are beholden to follow God over men when the two come in conflict.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 11:32:06 AM
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Aristocrat
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
In fact, not being 'of the world' means that we are beholden to follow God over men when the two come in conflict.
In that case, Jesus telling us to render unto Caesar might be considered a contradicton to some.
My understanding is that not being of this world means being born from above. You are the same person, you are in the same social circumstances and you abide by the same laws as long as you are in the flesh. In fact, we follow men in the military, on the job and abide by the rules of society as we obey the laws without question.
Now, jhud, you said, "Well, Muslims, Jews, Christians, and any other theistic belief have common cause in resisting overt imposition of Secularism."
The entire world is "overt secularism". God's kingdom is in your heart, but you remain in this secular/physical world until you die. And to compromise who Jesus Christ was to align yourself with Muslims is about as secular as one can get because a Christian knows in his heart who Jesus Christ really is.
By the same token, to deny physical evidence of the ToE in the name of Christ is just silly. If God wanted us to understand the Universe from His view, we wouldn't have to do research, life would no longer be a mystery.
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I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 11:46:43 AM
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Jhud
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In that case, Jesus telling us to render unto Caesar might be considered a contradicton to some.
Well not to me, because Jesus made the clear distinction between ‘what is Caesars’ and ‘what is God’s’
My understanding is that not being of this world means being born from above. You are the same person, you are in the same social circumstances and you abide by the same laws as long as you are in the flesh. In fact, we follow men in the military, on the job and abide by the rules of society as we obey the laws without question.
Now, jhud, you said, "Well, Muslims, Jews, Christians, and any other theistic belief have common cause in resisting overt imposition of Secularism."
The entire world is "overt secularism". God's kingdom is in your heart, but you remain in this secular/physical world until you die. And to compromise who Jesus Christ was to align yourself with Muslims is about as secular as one can get because a Christian knows in his heart who Jesus Christ really is.
I said ‘common cause’.
As a citizen of the US, I have ‘common cause’ with all the other citizens to live as a useful member of society who is interested in its health and security. As an employee I have ‘common cause’ with other employees to ensure the good fortunes of our company. There are many venues where Christians share common cause with other people whether or not they are Christians. As a person interested in religious liberty and freedom of expression, I have common cause with other folks who share that interest in ensuring that the freedom to express ourselves religiously or otherwise remains, and that those who would take away that liberty don’t succeed.
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By the same token, to deny physical evidence of the ToE in the name of Christ is just silly. If God wanted us to understand the Universe from His view, we wouldn't have to do research, life would no longer be a mystery.
Actually, I crticize the ToE on scientific and philosophic grounds - it has nothing to do with my being a Christian, but a critical thinker.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 12:06:26 PM
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Aristocrat
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
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In that case, Jesus telling us to render unto Caesar might be considered a contradicton to some.
Well not to me, because Jesus made the clear distinction between ‘what is Caesars’ and ‘what is God’s’ It is because of that distinction I believe what I do which was reflected in my last post.
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I have common cause with other folks who share that interest in ensuring that the freedom to express ourselves religiously or otherwise remains, and that those who would take away that liberty don’t succeed. But, that is what creationists are doing to science. Science in the secular world follows the path of physical laws, it is thier right to do that. Creationists want to infringe upon that right by diluting thier science with religious speculation in public schools. How can you call that freedom to express themselves, when they are being assaulted on religious grounds in a secular, temporal and natural setting which they are entitled to. They are not telling Muslims nor Christians how to follow thier understanding intellectually. And they owe Muslims no room to wiggle in and pronounce their perspective in this secular world. I think this makes Christians and Muslims look oppressive, fearful and self-righteous.
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Actually, I crticize the ToE on scientific and philosophic grounds - it has nothing to do with my being a Christian, but a critical thinker.
On scientific grounds, modern creationists have no business criticizing science until they can challenge them on the same scientific level. But, Christians don't want to go there so thier only critique is to criticize science, not constructively. It is the Christians once again being oppressive and they fit very well with the Taliban types. It saddens me as a Christian.
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I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 12:26:21 PM
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Jhud
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But, that is what creationists are doing to science. Science in the secular world follows the path of physical laws, it is thier right to do that. Creationists want to infringe upon that right by diluting thier science with religious speculation in public schools. How can you call that freedom to express themselves, when they are being assaulted on religious grounds in a secular, temporal and natural setting which they are entitled to. They are not telling Muslims nor Christians how to follow thier understanding intellectually. And they owe Muslims no room to wiggle in and pronounce their perspective in this secular world. I think this makes Christians and Muslims look oppressive, fearful and self-righteous.
You are wondering way off base here. You intimated with this thread that Creationists were somehow tainted by their association with Muslims in terms of their agreement that the development of life isn't best explained by evolution.
Then others called both Muslims and by association, creationists, ignorant. Now to sit here and say, "They (secularists like yourself and others) are not telling Muslims nor Christians how to follow their understanding intellectually." is more than disingenuous.
But the reality is 'science' in the 'secular world' follows all the same proclivities as all human endeavors - politics, economics, power plays, etc. And as much as it does, the fact that others both point this out, and utilize similar methods, should be no suprise to any except those with your naive notions of the intellectual purity of the science community.
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On scientific grounds, modern creationists have no business criticizing science until they can challenge them on the same scientific level. But, Christians don't want to go there so their only critique is to criticize science, not constructively. It is the Christians once again being oppressive and they fit very well with the Taliban types. It saddens me as a Christian.
I don't personally care what you think 'creationists' should or shouldn't be doing; all I know is that I am free to criticize evolution scientifically and otherwise as necessary, because that is what freedom is. The Founding Fathers didn't qualify the manner in which free citizens can express themselves as secularists are wont to do.
And those that presume to tell others when they may or may not speak are the true fascists, and this doesn't 'sadden' me, because it is always thus with tyrants, and should be expected and resisted.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 1:47:47 PM
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Aristocrat
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
You intimated with this thread that Creationists were somehow tainted by their association with Muslims in terms of their agreement that the development of life isn't best explained by evolution. Christians are tainted by Muslim affiliation in thier belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Muslims have been known to execute Christians in some ME countries for saying that.
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...... to sit here and say, "They (secularists like yourself and others) are not telling Muslims nor Christians how to follow their understanding intellectually." is more than disingenuous. I have yet to see any scientific organization go to court to teach Evolution in Churches or homes.
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But the reality is 'science' in the 'secular world' follows all the same proclivities as all human endeavors - politics, economics, power plays, etc. And as much as it does, the fact that others both point this out, and utilize similar methods, should be no suprise to any except those with your naive notions of the intellectual purity of the science community. What other human endeavor has the same conflict as religionists wanting their spiritual dogma in Science instruction. Can you name one?
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On scientific grounds, modern creationists have no business criticizing science until they can challenge them on the same scientific level. But, Christians don't want to go there so their only critique is to criticize science, not constructively. It is the Christians once again being oppressive and they fit very well with the Taliban types. It saddens me as a Christian.
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I don't personally care what you think 'creationists' should or shouldn't be doing; all I know is that I am free to criticize evolution scientifically and otherwise as necessary, because that is what freedom is. And no one is challenging that freedom. Criticize away. But keep it to yourself until you find some evidence to formally challenge the scienific community. Is that asking so much?
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The Founding Fathers didn't qualify the manner in which free citizens can express themselves as secularists are wont to do. They qualified it clearly enough that under our constitution fundamentalist christians and Muslims can't get a foot in the door in the Science field without some scientific basis. Ever notice that?
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And those that presume to tell others when they may or may not speak are the true fascists, and this doesn't 'sadden' me, because it is always thus with tyrants, and should be expected and resisted.
Asking christians to teach thier religion in churches and homes is facist? How about imposing a phantom, unproven creator on scientific discovery.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 2:05:21 PM
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Jhud
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Christians are tainted by Muslim affiliation in thier belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Muslims have been known to execute Christians in some ME countries for saying that.
And of course atheists execute Christians in atheistic countries. Does this mean because atheists and some Christians share a belief in evolution, that those Christians are 'tainted'?
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I have yet to see any scientific organization go to court to teach Evolution in Churches or homes.
Of course not - why would they need to when they have the kids eight hours a day where they do require the teaching of evolution?
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What other human endeavor has the same conflict as religionists wanting their spiritual dogma in Science instruction. Can you name one?
Politics, business, nations seeking dominance, battles between the sexes, battles between generations. Is there any human endeavor that isn't marked by conflict?
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And no one is challenging that freedom. Criticize away. But keep it to yourself until you find some evidence to formally challenge the scientific community. Is that asking so much?
I present plenty of evidence, but you (as non-scientist yourself) certainly aren't the arbiter of what constitutes scientific evidence. In fact, guess what - there is no king of science!
Few evolutionists seem to realize this. No central board of dogma, no college of cardinals, no Grand Inquisitor - simply people debating over the evidence they have - it's called free inquiry, and that is what makes science good. In fact, you don't even have to have evidence of your own - simply be able to speak knowledgably and critically of the evidence that is available. If it can withstand scrutiny, great, if not, keep trying. But it doesn't get to sit in a protective bubble until the 'consensus' allows criticism.
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They qualified it clearly enough that under our constitution fundamentalist Christians and Muslims can't get a foot in the door in the Science field without some scientific basis. Ever notice that?
I am now convinced that you have never read one sentence of the Constitution. If you can show me a single sentence, word, phrase, or other indicator that the US Constitution references between 'science' and 'fundamentalism', then I will gladly hear your nonsense - but otherwise, please stop pretending to have even a passing familiarity with the subject. My constitutional law professor is spinning in his grave.
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How about imposing a phantom, unproven creator on scientific discovery.
You mean like random mutations?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 3:43:29 PM
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Aristocrat
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
And of course atheists execute Christians in atheistic countries. Does this mean because atheists and some Christians share a belief in evolution, that those Christians are 'tainted'? You make stuff up as you go along, don't you. Too bad more people can't see that.
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I have yet to see any scientific organization go to court to teach Evolution in Churches or homes.
Of course not - why would they need to when they have the kids eight hours a day where they do require the teaching of evolution? First of all, evolution is not taught eight hours a day in our public schools and you know that. Secondly, Even public school classes don't run continuously 8 hrs a day. Findally, after one hour of science class per day, Christians are left with the other 23 hours to teach thier children whatever they wish. It's that one hour that pumps the greed in fundamentalist christians to control others. It's shameful.
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And no one is challenging that freedom. Criticize away. But keep it to yourself until you find some evidence to formally challenge the scientific community. Is that asking so much?
I present plenty of evidence, but you (as non-scientist yourself) certainly aren't the arbiter of what constitutes scientific evidence. In fact, guess what - there is no king of science! More deceit. There is no evidence to support an intelligent designer. It does not exist. Everything IDers come up with is shot down with facts. Nothing is left. There is nothing science cannot explain that points to an Intelligent Designer. Did you ever stop to think for a moment that maybe The Creator God wants it that way. Because if He does, nothing you can say is going to change it.
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They qualified it clearly enough that under our constitution fundamentalist Christians and Muslims can't get a foot in the door in the Science field without some scientific basis. Ever notice that?
I am now convinced that you have never read one sentence of the Constitution.
Hey, I'm an American, I live here, I know my rights under the Constitution. You should learn yours. You won't find pushing religion on science one of them. (nor vice versa)
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If you can show me a single sentence, word, phrase, or other indicator that the US Constitution references between 'science' and 'fundamentalism', then I will gladly hear your nonsense - but otherwise, please stop pretending to have even a passing familiarity with the subject. My constitutional law professor is spinning in his grave.
Our children have a right to attend a science class where evidence is presented which supports the Theory of Evolution without religious interference. Show me where the constitution forbids that.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 3:57:52 PM
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Jhud
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You make stuff up as you go along, don't you. Too bad more people can't see that.
Are you denying the existence of the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and Vietnam?
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First of all, evolution is not taught eight hours a day in our public schools and you know that. Secondly, Even public school classes don't run continuously 8 hrs a day. Findally, after one hour of science class per day, Christians are left with the other 23 hours to teach thier children whatever they wish. It's that one hour that pumps the greed in fundamentalist christians to control others. It's shameful.
Well, first off my point was that schools had children eight hours a day – I never said it was continuous stream evolutionary propaganda, but that schools have the freedom during the course of the day to teach whatever they wish. In fact I remember a social studies teacher teaching about evolution (in comparison to religion), and I had more than one hour of science after elementary school.
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More deceit. There is no evidence to support an intelligent designer. It does not exist. Everything IDers come up with is shot down with facts. Nothing is left. There is nothing science cannot explain that points to an Intelligent Designer. Did you ever stop to think for a moment that maybe The Creator God wants it that way. Because if He does, nothing you can say is going to change it.
There is of course lots of evidence – a lengthy complex information code, billions of cells full of nano-machinery, a universe with numerous specific factors finely tuned for the existence of life, a star, solar system, planet, and eco-system system finely tuned for the existence of life, unique human attributes especially including the capacity to comprehend the nature of said universe and place it in the context of a spiritual narrative. Most of these things lie outside of the prevue of evolutionary explanation, and certainly can be considered evidence for design.
So to say there is no evidence is ridiculous – to say you reject the evidence because you pray for natural explanations is certainly a possibility, but that doesn’t itself negate the evidence.
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Hey, I'm an American, I live here, I know my rights under the Constitution. You should learn yours. You won't find pushing religion on science one of them. (nor vice versa)
Yes, even a materialistic religion can’t be imposed on a free citizenry.
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Our children have a right to attend a science class where evidence is presented which supports the Theory of Evolution without religious interference. Show me where the constitution forbids that.
Absent abuse, parents have the right to say as to how their children are raised – the government has no such rights.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 5:44:23 PM
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Aristocrat
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
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You make stuff up as you go along, don't you. Too bad more people can't see that.
Are you denying the existence of the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and Vietnam?
There is simply no comparison to what Muslims in the ME do to Christian Missioniaries. Perhaps you should google it and learn from various missionary groups.
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I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 5:50:33 PM
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Jhud
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There is simply no comparison to what Muslims in the ME do to Christian Missioniaries. Perhaps you should google it and learn from various missionary groups.
Perhaps you should read a little bit about Stalin and Mao.
Particularly Stalin - I have Ukranian relatives who barely escaped the ravages of his pogroms.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/22/2008 10:26:45 PM
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Aristocrat
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
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There is simply no comparison to what Muslims in the ME do to Christian Missioniaries. Perhaps you should google it and learn from various missionary groups.
Perhaps you should read a little bit about Stalin and Mao.
Particularly Stalin - I have Ukranian relatives who barely escaped the ravages of his pogroms.
I probably know that history better than you. But it has nothing to do with the subject. It's not even slightly related. There are no historical parallels.
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I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/23/2008 9:03:14 PM
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Jhud
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I probably know that history better than you. But it has nothing to do with the subject. It's not even slightly related. There are no historical parallels.
I don't know how you would know that history better than me, but that is irrelevant - it contradicts the contention that simply because two groups happen to share a particular belief (in this case, evolution), that the belief is 'tainted' simply because one of the groups conducts itself perniciously.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/23/2008 10:22:46 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
And no one is challenging that freedom. Criticize away. But keep it to yourself until you find some evidence to formally challenge the scienific community. Is that asking so much?
You are asking Jhud not to exercise his freedom of speech? Wow, that's extreme. This is the evolutionist view, that no man may exercise his freedom of speech if his speech contradicts the beliefs of the secular community. This is how evolution acquired the status that it has, not through scientific means, but by demanding the censorship of anyone that disagrees with it. Evolution can't stand up to scientific scrutiny, so it must resort to dishonesty to maintain itself instead.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/23/2008 10:51:21 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
And no one is challenging that freedom. Criticize away. But keep it to yourself until you find some evidence to formally challenge the scienific community. Is that asking so much?
If it's really true that Jhud has no evidence or valid criticisms to formally challenge the "scientific" community with, then you should have no problems with Jhud not keeping his criticisms to himself because you should have no problems refuting his criticisms and showing that his criticisms are invalid. Doing so would only help further your cause because it would allow people to see why his criticisms are invalid. That's what freedom of speech and open inquiry are about. People are free to criticize the alleged consensus all they want because, to the extent that those criticisms are valid, they would educate others about the validity of those criticisms. In as much as they are invalid, no one would take them seriously.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 7/24/2008 2:43:56 AM >
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/23/2008 11:24:15 PM
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Method
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ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
If it's really true that Jhud has no evidence or valid criticisms to formally challenge the "scientific" community with,
Is it true that Jhud has not submitted these criticisms to a peer reviewed scientific journal or presented these criticisms at a scientific conference?
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/23/2008 11:30:33 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7499
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Is it true that Jhud has not submitted these criticisms to a peer reviewed scientific journal or presented these criticisms at a scientific conference?
Does the 1st amendment require that?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/24/2008 2:43:33 AM
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Bettawrekonize
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ORIGINAL: Method
Is it true that Jhud has not submitted these criticisms to a peer reviewed scientific journal or presented these criticisms at a scientific conference?
So what if he hasn't? If these "scientific" journals or "scientific" conferences are accurate, then you should have no problems defending their position against Jhud's criticisms.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/24/2008 3:03:57 PM
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Aristocrat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
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Is it true that Jhud has not submitted these criticisms to a peer reviewed scientific journal or presented these criticisms at a scientific conference?
Does the 1st amendment require that?
Of course not. But, haven't you figured out yet that it is required to be taken seriously in the science community?
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/24/2008 3:14:24 PM
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Jhud
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Of course not. But, haven't you figured out yet that it is required to be taken seriously in the science community?
Are you part of the science community?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/24/2008 3:58:39 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
Of course not. But, haven't you figured out yet that it is required to be taken seriously in the science community?
I think the best way to get others to take you seriously is to be correct (or at least be logical). Whether or not it has "passed peer review" by a select few is irrelevant, if a viewpoint makes sense then I think others would take it seriously. If I have a viewpoint that is correct or at least makes sense, I shouldn't (and don't) have to go through the substantial barriers put forth by a select few (ie: those in charge of the secular community), posting it to others on these forums and allowing them to see for themselves that it makes sense is suffice. If you think I am wrong about something, criticize away. Those who submit to peer review journals and/or accept or deny the publication of work in those journals are also free to come here and do the same. My viewpoints don't/shouldn't need their blessing to get posted here and no one is stopping them from coming here and giving us their input.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 7/24/2008 4:04:46 PM >
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/24/2008 4:55:49 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 891
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Of course not. But, haven't you figured out yet that it is required to be taken seriously in the science community?
Are you part of the science community?
Jhud, the science community is not a secret organization. Anyone has access to the research of scientists.
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I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/25/2008 5:49:39 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 891
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
Of course not. But, haven't you figured out yet that it is required to be taken seriously in the science community?
I think the best way to get others to take you seriously is to be correct (or at least be logical). Whether or not it has "passed peer review" by a select few is irrelevant, if a viewpoint makes sense then I think others would take it seriously. If I have a viewpoint that is correct or at least makes sense, I shouldn't (and don't) have to go through the substantial barriers put forth by a select few (ie: those in charge of the secular community), posting it to others on these forums and allowing them to see for themselves that it makes sense is suff | | |
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