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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/5/2008 12:39:33 PM
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KatMack
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
Okay, I know we've already addressed this in the thread, but since yustme hasn't read it...
So, you disagree with rummage sales at the church? AA/NA meetings? Car washes? Quilting groups? Mom's Morning Out?
--Kat
Yes I do,but that's a completly different subject for the reason I do.But my reason is very Biblical.
I would love to hear your "very Biblical" reasons for allowing these 'Non-Spiritual" matters to take place in the church and not the gathering of musicians referenced in the OP.
--Kat
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/5/2008 1:33:59 PM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
Okay, I know we've already addressed this in the thread, but since yustme hasn't read it...
So, you disagree with rummage sales at the church? AA/NA meetings? Car washes? Quilting groups? Mom's Morning Out?
--Kat
Yes I do,but that's a completly different subject for the reason I do.But my reason is very Biblical.
I would love to hear your "very Biblical" reasons for allowing these 'Non-Spiritual" matters to take place in the church and not the gathering of musicians referenced in the OP.
--Kat
I would like to,however I don't think the mods would permit it because it's off the topic.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/5/2008 1:45:01 PM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
quote:
I have heard of church services being held in other places,but never in a behove if you say it has happened,I believe you.But I still do not agree with useing the church for anything other than Spiritual happenings.
Okay, I know we've already addressed this in the thread, but since ystme hasn't read it...
So, you disagree with rummage sales at the church? AA/NA meetings? Car washes? Quilting groups? Mom's Morning Out?
--Kat
Excuse me,you asked in this post if I disagree with these different things and I said yes I do.Then in the above post you ask what was the differencs between these things and what the musicians were doing?I'm strongly against all of them.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/5/2008 2:28:04 PM
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KatMack
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Sorry, I misread your post and thought you agreed with those.
Honestly, I feel that the Biblical reasons for not doing those things in the church ARE the topic of this thread. I'd really like to hear your opinion on this and if it IS off-topic, the mods can nudge us over to another thread.
--Kat
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/5/2008 2:40:37 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
I would love to hear your "very Biblical" reasons for allowing these 'Non-Spiritual" matters to take place in the church and not the gathering of musicians referenced in the OP. The only earthly "holy" (set apart) space denoted in scripture was in the Tabernacle made by Moses et al and later in the Temple in Jerusalem. There is nothing scriptural about having a "sanctuary" in a church building. That is a man made tradition. Not that traditions are necessarily bad; but they should be understood as traditions and not scripture, nor should we try to force some scriptures to back up our traditions. (I realize many do this because they reject the idea of following tradition)
If you don't want musical jam sessions in the main auditorium of your building, fine. Just don't attach any biblical significance to your opinion.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/5/2008 3:17:03 PM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
I would love to hear your "very Biblical" reasons for allowing these 'Non-Spiritual" matters to take place in the church and not the gathering of musicians referenced in the OP. The only earthly "holy" (set apart) space denoted in scripture was in the Tabernacle made by Moses et al and later in the Temple in Jerusalem. There is nothing scriptural about having a "sanctuary" in a church building. That is a man made tradition. Not that traditions are necessarily bad; but they should be understood as traditions and not scripture, nor should we try to force some scriptures to back up our traditions. (I realize many do this because they reject the idea of following tradition)
If you don't want musical jam sessions in the main auditorium of your building, fine. Just don't attach any biblical significance to your opinion.
I agree with your post entirely.There is nothing Biblicaly wrong with secular musical jam sessions in the church.I disagree with it entirely on opinion.I firmly believe the church"God's house"should be used for the use of spiritual things.It should be santified,"set apart"for the use of God and His work.The other things that were mentiond,the non spiritual things that bring in money for the church is not Biblical to do.According to the Bible,the church is to operate from our tithes and offerings.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/5/2008 3:18:06 PM
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doinkdom
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I visited a church that met in a nightclub on Sunday mornings, and it was alright. They're actually a really big church now with their own building.
I visited a church that met in a Seventh Day Adventist church on Sunday mornings and they just got the plans together to build a few months ago.
I visited one that met in realtor's office, too...not sure where they meet now though.
None of these were local churches for me, but ones I've visited when out of town.
Many churches in our area actually have what is commonly referred to as a multi-purpose building that gets "set up" for church early Sunday morning. The rest of the week, various groups meet there. This is fairly common around here.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/5/2008 3:26:21 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I disagree with it entirely on opinion. I firmly believe the church"God's house"should be used for the use of spiritual things .It should be santified,"set apart"for the use of God and His work. Can you give me one verse that says a New Covenant building should be "set apart?"
If you cannot, you have your opinions and traditions. And that is fine as long as they don't violate the Word.
But when you say "...SHOULD BE USED..." you really need to back that up with scripture. Can you even back up that a congregational home should be refered to as "God's House?" Again, that is a term that relates to the temple in Jerusalem. Your building is NOT the temple.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/5/2008 3:48:33 PM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I disagree with it entirely on opinion. I firmly believe the church"God's house"should be used for the use of spiritual things .It should be santified,"set apart"for the use of God and His work. Can you give me one verse that says a New Covenant building should be "set apart?"
If you cannot, you have your opinions and traditions. And that is fine as long as they don't violate the Word.
But when you say "...SHOULD BE USED..." you really need to back that up with scripture. Can you even back up that a congregational home should be refered to as "God's House?" Again, that is a term that relates to the temple in Jerusalem. Your building is NOT the temple.
You're right.As I said before,that was only my opinion.To my knowledge there is no scripture that backs up my opinion.But i still stand by it.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/5/2008 5:19:15 PM
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DougHorton
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Can you give us one verse that says there is any distinction between "Old Covenant buildings" and "New Covenant buildings"? I've never heard of such buildings. As far as I know, the Apostles all respected the sanctity of the Temple and the synagogues wherever they went.
The principle is still the same -- If a place is set aside for a certain purpose, religious or otherwise, it is improper to use that place for other purposes.
There are quite a few places where a jam session would not be welcome, the sanctuary of a church is only one of them.
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/6/2008 7:39:13 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
Can you give us one verse that says there is any distinction between "Old Covenant buildings" and "New Covenant buildings"? Of course not. Let me explain why I used that terminology.
The tabernacle of Moses and the Temple of Solomon are the only structures biblically set apart as holy. You could add the place of Mt Sinai where Moses was told "this is holy ground." You could also probably add the location of the temple mount in Jerusalem. These structures and places were defined under the Mosaic covenant. (i.e. old covenant buildings)
There is nothing like that under the New Covenant.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/6/2008 11:48:32 AM
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DougHorton
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And your point is...?
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/6/2008 1:02:51 PM
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DaveW
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My point is no one should make a doctrinair judgement based solely on opinion. You cannot look down on others who do not share your opinion. If you had a scriptural basis for the opinion, perhaps; but you yourself have stated that you do not.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/6/2008 2:45:43 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
My point is no one should make a doctrinair judgement based solely on opinion. You cannot look down on others who do not share your opinion. If you had a scriptural basis for the opinion, perhaps; but you yourself have stated that you do not.
1. It is not solely opinion. This cultural phenomenon can be observed in every culture.
2. Nobody is "looking down" on others. Don't fall into that same trap yourself.
3. There is a LOT of scriptural support. Where is yours?
4. I have never stated that I did not have scriptural support.
There is ample support that certain practices were appropriate for certain places and inappropriate for others. There is no support at all that this changed between the testaments. In fact, there is ample support that the Apostles respected the synagogues and the temple, and even pagan temples. Do I need to quote verses for you?
Must something have a NT verse to support it's use in today's worship? If so, where are the verses supporting the use of musical instruments in worship? If we start demanding scripture, you must first show me where musical instruments are even allowed in NT worship. Of course, you can't.
However, this begs the question. My argument is that there are certain places that are appropriate for certain activities and that inappropriate activities are not allowed in such places. This is pan-cultural and applies to secular situations as well as religious situations.
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/7/2008 7:30:40 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
Must something have a NT verse to support it's use in today's worship? If so, where are the verses supporting the use of musical instruments in worship? If we start demanding scripture, you must first show me where musical instruments are even allowed in NT worship. Of course, you can't. You don't have to quote Zwingli at me. I am familiar with his arguments and disagree totally with his position that unless something is commanded in the NT is is forbidden. He falls into the error of Marcion (just not as extreme) by making a huge break between NT and OT.
If you look at historic covenants of the ancient Mid East, one finds many that were changed, updated, etc. In these cases, when a covenant was updated, all of the provisions of the original agreement that were not specifically changed in the addendum were still in force. The fact that musical instruments are not mentioned in NT worship means that Psalm 150 is still in effect where we are COMMANDED to praise God with trumpets (shofarim), drums, cymbols, etc. quote:
My argument is that there are certain places that are appropriate for certain activities and that inappropriate activities are not allowed in such places. This is pan-cultural and applies to secular situations as well as religious situations. Appropriate on what basis? If it is purely a cultural idea, it has little or no spiritual weight.
Don't get me wrong - I am not against culture or tradition. My point is that if you are following a cultural tradition that is not from scripture it must be acknowledged as such. You must take a long hard look at it and understand WHY you choose to follow it.
As a Messianic, there is much we do that is from traditional Jewish culture. Some has a scriptural basis and some does not. We look at each one to determine if it is biblical and how it can be expressed in a New Covenant way. If it violates scripture, we don't do it. If it draws attention away from the gospel, we don't do it. If it is just something to do that may have cultural significance to Jews, we often will do it but with the understanding that it is extra-biblical. I believe that methodology to be useful in all believing communities
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/7/2008 12:22:40 PM
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DougHorton
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Zwingli? I wasn't thinking of Zwingli at all. I was thinking of YOUR argument.
quote:
In these cases, when a covenant was updated, all of the provisions of the original agreement that were not specifically changed in the addendum were still in force.
That's right. You just shot down your own argument against the sanctity of worship places. We don't need a NT verse. The OT reverence for places of worship was never abrogated.
quote:
Appropriate on what basis? If it is purely a cultural idea, it has little or no spiritual weight.
Not if that cultural basis is God's commandment. And, as your previous point made clear, those OT traditions were not abrogated and still hold.
But suppose it is a secular tradition. Would you be allowed to have a jam session in...
... the cockpit of a passenger jet?
... the courtroom of your city hall?
... the operating room of your local hospital?
... the girl's locker room at the high school? (assuming you are male)
... the median of a limited access expressway?
No. There are certain activities which are not allowed for various reasons in certain places. Those restrictions must be respected or you will face the consequences.
I honestly cannot see why this obvious fact of life is so hard to understand.
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing a jam session into a church - 8/7/2008 12:29:02 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
But suppose it is a secular tradition. Would you be allowed to have a jam session in...
... the cockpit of a passenger jet?
... the courtroom of your city hall?
... the operating room of your local hospital?
... the girl's locker room at the high school? (assuming you are male)
... the median of a limited access expressway?
I'll bite:
The answer is "YES" to all those if they are not currently being used flying, while in session, normal hours, etc. and permission has been given by those in authority.
Next analogy...
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RE: Bringing a jam session into a church - 8/7/2008 12:44:13 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
But suppose it is a secular tradition. Would you be allowed to have a jam session in...
... the cockpit of a passenger jet?
... the courtroom of your city hall?
... the operating room of your local hospital?
... the girl's locker room at the high school? (assuming you are male)
... the median of a limited access expressway?
I'll bite:
The answer is "YES" to all those if they are not currently being used flying, while in session, normal hours, etc. and permission has been given by those in authority.
Next analogy...
That's exactly what I was thinking Jimbo.
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RE: Bringing a jam session into a church - 8/7/2008 12:44:26 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
... and permission has been given by those in authority.
Enough said.
Go ahead and do what you want.
Pr 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing a jam session into a church - 8/7/2008 2:19:50 PM
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Qtman
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Folks I'll be the first one to admit there are things I would not want to see take place inside a church. There are also things I would not like to see the church involved in outside the church. Some of both things are plainly Biblical and some of them are just Qtman's preference. If it is biblical I will argue the point till the cows come home. If it is just my likes and dislikes I will state my opinion let it be know it is my opinion and not argue the point.
The case in point is clearly not biblical so it must be opinion. You have yours, the OP had hers and I have mine. None are more right or wrong than the others. If you don't like something going on in church just say you don't like it. But don't try to make others conform to your likes or dislikes.
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RE: Bringing a jam session into a church - 8/7/2008 2:34:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Folks I'll be the first one to admit there are things I would not want to see take place inside a church. There are also things I would not like to see the church involved in outside the church. Some of both things are plainly Biblical and some of them are just Qtman's preference. If it is biblical I will argue the point till the cows come home. If it is just my likes and dislikes I will state my opinion let it be know it is my opinion and not argue the point.
The case in point is clearly not biblical so it must be opinion. You have yours, the OP had hers and I have mine. None are more right or wrong than the others. If you don't like something going on in church just say you don't like it. But don't try to make others conform to your likes or dislikes.
How is what is or isn't biblical is not just opinion as well...
John
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RE: Bringing a jam session into a church - 8/7/2008 3:07:21 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Folks I'll be the first one to admit there are things I would not want to see take place inside a church. There are also things I would not like to see the church involved in outside the church. Some of both things are plainly Biblical and some of them are just Qtman's preference. If it is biblical I will argue the point till the cows come home. If it is just my likes and dislikes I will state my opinion let it be know it is my opinion and not argue the point.
The case in point is clearly not biblical so it must be opinion. You have yours, the OP had hers and I have mine. None are more right or wrong than the others. If you don't like something going on in church just say you don't like it. But don't try to make others conform to your likes or dislikes.
How is what is or isn't biblical is not just opinion as well...
John
I thought you were better than this John. I have read enough of your posts to know you knew exactly what I meant. Therefore I am not going to bother to explain it to you. I think you just love an argument and would argue with a rock and it really don't matter which side you argue.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 8/7/2008 3:27:37 PM
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DougHorton
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Whom did I call a fool?
I was pointing out that a distinguishing mark of foolishness is to do what is right in your own eyes. Did you think that applied to you?
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing a jam session into a church - 8/7/2008 3:30:47 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
The case in point is clearly not biblical so it must be opinion. You have yours, the OP had hers and I have mine. None are more right or wrong than the others. If you don't like something going on in church just say you don't like it. But don't try to make others conform to your likes or dislikes.
Is it not possible to have an opinion based on Biblical precedent?
Either way, I see the case in point as being very Biblical, heavily supported by scripture.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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