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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:37:20 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Why do "Christians" want so badly to look like the world??? No one ever wants to discuss that fact!
Peter, since each believer is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, is not one of the great messages of the Christ and the NT that we go with God, regardless of the building or location we are in, that we are Christians in full-time Christian servivc 24/7, that we don't take off and put on God or holiness depending on location or the company we are in?
IOW, in the OT, only certain places and people and certain times were holy and in God's presence. No so since we've been redeemed.
Absolutely correct! My point is, people cannot seem to stand something that is dedicated to God, and God alone. Whether it be a building, a car, a government...whatever. People are, and have been for years, even trying to make the Bible more "interesting" to the world, to the point of turning it into a novel!
Yes, I agree that the dwelling place of God is in His people. But we don't even look any different, either...but that's another thread, I guess.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:38:52 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2042
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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I have actually heard of a few churches that would meet together every week for a potluck after the services, and they would bring wine to drink with the meals. What is your thought on that?
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:41:41 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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From: Augusta, GA
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benelchi,
It would be fair to say that's almost exactly what the first century church did.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:46:30 AM
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deliveredarling
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The church is a place for the sick. For the sick to be healed, not for the sin to be tolerated, accepted, or condoned, but for the healing of.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:48:13 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
The church is a place for the sick. For the sick to be healed, not for the sin to be tolerated, accepted, or condoned, but for the healing of.
For clarification, which "sins" are you saying are being tolerated, accepted, or condoned in churches?
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:53:16 AM
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deliveredarling
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Do ya'll really not see a difference in a time of praise and worship than in a secular, worldly jam session, that isn't about God at all, that's not about reaching the lost?
I just see a real difference between the two.
Why have it in the church at all? Why couldn't it be at a person's house? Or maybe a warehouse? If it's not as an outreach then why be in the church?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:54:40 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
For clarification, which "sins" are you saying are being tolerated, accepted, or condoned in churches?
Any and all. Directed mostly at the feel good churches that say sin is ok because we are already forgiven.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 11:00:34 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2042
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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A lot of the churches in my area book parties (especially in the spring and summer) where there is dancing, and alcohol being served. Most of the time the host provides the alcohol. Although some of these parties do have an evangelistic message, it is never the primary focus. I am wondering, do you think these parties should be band from the churches?
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 11:06:17 AM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Here is an update: No more mention of byob, now it's refreshments and gourmet coffee being served. The cost is free, so it's non profit.
It would seem that after the preliminary "thought," the reality of legalities, etc. kicked in and now it's totally moot.
So what is the complaint about now??? Potlucks? Car Washes in the parking lot? Scrapbooking in the fellowship hall?
IMO, I think it's about time the inner sanctum of the church got torn (again, I might add) and those who need ministering to can get it.
As for jam session...didn't God give us the talents we have in the arts? I'm not really following why a jam session for musicians is a bad thing.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 11:30:01 AM
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bluestone
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From: Saturn
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Is this church building, or area of the church the gathering is to be held in a place that has been set apart and consecrated for use only to worship God?
Many church buildings were made for multipurpose uses instead of just worship, so the scenario would be different there.
I think that would make a difference.
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"a fanatic is someone who can't change his mind, and won't change the subject"-Winston Churchill
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 12:07:49 PM
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Restored_Heart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
You bring up a very interesting point. We wouldn't have a "jam session" (et al) in a funeral home, a library, many offices, a doctor's office, the rotunda of a capital, etc. Why? Because we know that would be inappropriate and, as you said, it shows a lack of respect.
Really?
There are concerts at libraries all the time. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A00E7D7153FF930A35752C0A96F958260
There are concerts at funeral homes too. http://www.journal-news.net/page/content.detail/id/501432.html?nav=5065
Offices and doctor's offices just don't have room, mostly.
There are concerts at capitol rotundas all the time, here's one. http://www.austin360.com/event/events2/etc/userEventDisplay.jspd?eventStatus=Approved&eventid=180356
So, apparently it's neither inappropriate nor shows a lack of respect.
I actually thought it was an important aspect of the end of a funeral in Louisiana.... 
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Rosencrantz: Or just as mad.
G: Or just as mad.
R: And he does both.
G: So there you are.
R: Stark raving sane.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 12:17:30 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Why have it in the church at all? Why couldn't it be at a person's house? Or maybe a warehouse? If it's not as an outreach then why be in the church?
I practice trumpet, and have since 1991, at my church a lot and at various times because even my wife shouldn't have to listen to the different exercises I need to do on the horn. I cannot afford a warehouse and I don't think my neighbors would care to hear me.
Granted, the main reason I practice is to be in shape for our church orchestra, but I don't just play hymns and choruses.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 12:25:05 PM
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stellaluna
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I think the problem is the lack of understanding of what a jam session actually is? They're not scary, they're fun. No relation to a honky-tonk. (I do happen to know what that is.) And there's no way of knowing at this point who will show up and what instrument they will bring with them. For several months I played tin whistle at a jam session that met in all kinds of different places.
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"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 12:49:03 PM
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armydude
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I see that this guy is wanting to bring unsaved people into a church.
Nothing specifically was mentioned about him trying to reach the lost. It was labeled as a jam session-not praise and worship night or any specific religious outreach. As it was originally presented to me, alcohol was to be brought in by the individuals who wanted to imbibe while jamming. (BYOB) and I don't mean bring your own bible. I was of the understanding it was to be coffee and snacks. He plainly said that it was BYOB? Interesting.quote:
The jam session was for secular music. The whole scenario was set up to be just like an open mike night at a bar only this would take place in a church. There was no mention, and still hasn't been mentioned as any sort of outreach plan. The target audience is at musicians to "come and show their stuff". Not that the general public would be excluded but it is mainly for musicians to jam. That would be because secular musicians play secular music. Trying to force them to listen to/play gospel music could very well be counterproductive. It could harden their hearts to the gospel. Would you want to be responsible for that? I wouldn't. That doesn't look like it's too far IMO to go to reach someone where they are. I would of course put limits on such a move. Certain secular songs definitely have no place in a church (i.e. the "cheating spouse" country songs, cop killer rap, etc.). But there are a lot of uplifting songs that are not overtly gospel songs. quote:
I posted an update of new information many pages back, that they were now serving refreshments and gourmet coffee. So they're serving coffee and refreshments. I thought I had seen that.quote:
I still am not fond of the idea of a church being used as a secular gathering place for jam sessions. There are other locations that are appropriate for that sort of thing.
It's kind of like having a jam session at a funeral home. You wouldn't do that either, simply as a matter of respect. Period.
The thread raged on under the premise of the alcohol still being in the scene. Alcohol in the church has been the major debate. the question kept being asked in an implied manner why I object so vehemently to this (alcohol being in church) and I stated some things about the instigator of the leader. Now, I'm accused of being misleading and accusing others of all sorts of things, when in reality, the man's defects have no bearing on my position. It still remains the same whether he was apart of it or not.
This thought bears repeating:
The purpose of this thread is to focus on our perceptions of what should or should not take place in a church setting, why or why not.
Hope that catches you up to speed.
It does. It looks to me as though the gospel could be being shared at these gatherings. That part hasn't been addressed. The church is NOT the building, but the people in the building. To place more importance on the building than the people in the building is a bigger problem IMO than a jam session whether or not alcohol is involved.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 12:57:12 PM
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deliveredarling
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This is NOT a praise team practice or choir practice. This is basically an open mike night (open instrument) occurring in a place of worship. My reference to doing it somewhere else is because this scenario could take place anywhere else. It's not directed at ministry or for outreach. Nothing about it sets it apart from being a secular gathering.
Honky tonking was probably a strong conjecture for this. Should they allow alcohol, honky tonking would be a likely outcome given the opportunity for believers and non-believers alike participating. A non-believer participating with a group of believer's drinking would not have the sense that overindulging would be unacceptable.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 1:03:30 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1420
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quote:
That would be because secular musicians play secular music. Trying to force them to listen to/play gospel music could very well be counterproductive.
He is the praise team leader of the church.
quote:
The church is NOT the building, but the people in the building. To place more importance on the building than the people in the building is a bigger problem IMO than a jam session whether or not alcohol is involved.
As I have stated before, the building is not the focal point. It's the meaning of the building. What the church building represents. How is going to be represented any differently to the world if what takes place in a bar is allowed to take place in a church?
A bar is a bar and things of the bar are done there.
Church is place where we worship God, prayer, seek healing, regeneration, revitalization and fellowship with other believers.
IMO allowing it in conforms to the world not sets us apart.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 1:04:11 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3925
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From: The higher lowcountry
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Another option is to actually wait and see.
Go to the event and see for yourself rather than make assumptions based on "fear" of man. See with your own eyes what happens. And don't base the experience on one person, but the event as a whole.
It's already been settled that no alcohol will be there, so we're back to the point of "The purpose of this thread is to focus on our perceptions of what should or should not take place in a church setting, why or why not."
I have many friends who are musicians (violin, guitar, songwriters, drummers, etc.) Some are Christians, some aren't. But to serve them all by extending God's grace in the form of a building where they can express themselves with the talents that God gave them...
sounds like a worthy and ministerial thing to do to me.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 1:09:39 PM
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armydude
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
This is NOT a praise team practice or choir practice. This is basically an open mike night (open instrument) occurring in a place of worship. Open mike. I know of a place in Nashville that did that. It worked out wonderfully. The gospel message was shared every night and the very people that came to sing secular music were touched by it.quote:
My reference to doing it somewhere else is because this scenario could take place anywhere else. It's not directed at ministry or for outreach. Nothing about it sets it apart from being a secular gathering. So basically what you're saying is that because you don't see ministry, there is no ministry?quote:
Honky tonking was probably a strong conjecture for this. Should they allow alcohol, honky tonking would be a likely outcome given the opportunity for believers and non-believers alike participating. A non-believer participating with a group of believer's drinking would not have the sense that overindulging would be unacceptable.
I doubt a Honky Tonk atmosphere will come from this if it's done right.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 1:12:12 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1420
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quote:
sounds like a worthy and ministerial thing to do to me.
In all honesty, I'm sure it would be, should he be properly leading his family in a Godly manner. the fact is, he is not. That concerns me greatly for the people he might be influencing.
I'm seeing a much bigger picture here. The eternal consequences for his family and for the lives he comes in contact with.
I bear no grudges towards him or the church, just concern. The same as many of you who get on here and bash the WOF and the false teachers.
This is what i see occurring in this church and this man.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 1:13:37 PM
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armydude
Posts: 14486
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
sounds like a worthy and ministerial thing to do to me.
In all honesty, I'm sure it would be, should he be properly leading his family in a Godly manner. the fact is, he is not. That concerns me greatly for the people he might be influencing.
Now I'm even more confused.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 1:15:45 PM
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doinkdom
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So it seems that the real issue is the man, not the event? If the event were hosted by someone who you felt was more godly, then that would be no problem?
If you have genuine concerns, why not voice them to your pastor/elder/deacon?
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 1:16:40 PM
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armydude
Posts: 14486
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
So it seems that the real issue is the man, not the event? If the event were hosted by someone who you felt was more godly, then that would be no problem?
If you have genuine concerns, why not voice them to your pastor/elder/deacon?
That's what is confusing me...
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 1:16:56 PM
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Qtman
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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Maybe I'm like a lot of others on here and just don't understand or agree with your position. But........
I have been involved with church all my life. I have played guitar since my preteen years and that is no short time. I have been involved with Southern Gospel Music for 42 years. Now, I haven't played a guitar very much in years and when I pick one up I don't know what is going to come out of it until I start playing. It may be amazing grace or it may maybe Magic Carpet Ride. My point is if I want to have a jam session and I have a choice between a bar or having it in a church building I am looking at it this way. In the church building "I" have set the parameters. It is less like to evolve into something I don't want that if we met in a bar where I have no control at all. Maybe this is the same as the person you are talking about. In short until you talk to that person and learn what he is trying to do and why don't condem him. You simply don't have enough information to justify that.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 1:35:16 PM
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Zhi
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Hmm. Well, I guess I will just list some things that go on in churches in my area and see what people say about them... I'm not going to make any statements about what I feel, this is just what I've seen, and I'm wondering what people think is appropriate or not. The following are listed as open to anyone, and do not have any particular evangelizing bent, at least in the event announcements.
- Play groups (children 0-5 years of age)
- Knit/crochet/crafting/scrapbooking/quilting/sewing/stitching groups
- Secular concerts (generally instrumental in nature)
- Youth dances
- Bingo nights
- Craft sales
- Rummage sales
- AA meetings
- Polling locations (places people go to vote)
- Free meals
- Potlucks
- Political speeches (by candidates)
- Wedding receptions (including permutations, such as with/without alcohol, with/without dancing, etc)
That's all I can think of for now. It would be interesting to see what people say as far as okay/not okay.
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