RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 3:58:41 PM
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MrsTracy72
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
quote:
And as for your child missing taking communion every week, what would the difference be if your child skipped church every other weekend or went to a church that didn't have communion every week for your child? Nothing really. That is a very good point, since I doubt this dad will take his child to the Catholic church...probably the two of them will stay home, kept away from the rest of the family and ANY church, on the Sunday mornings that she stays with him. I think that's far more harmful than simply having different communion traditions or something like that.
Agreed. Are you going to let us know how this turns out for you?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 4:06:56 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
But unless he is actively telling his daughter not to be a Catholic, or directly influencing her against Catholicism, he is not acting against the Catholic upbringing her mother is giving her.
Many Protestant churches do openly speak out against Catholicism and teach doctrines different then what she would learn in Mass, so it goes far beyond communion traditions.
To a lesser extent, pretend you've spent your entire life as a strict, conservative, Southern Baptist, and now you find yourself in a more liberal Methodist church. There are going to be doctrinal differences. You can't just exchange one for the other without confusion at best, pain and rebellion at worst.
It's a hard decision, whether it's better to attend a church that teaches a doctrine different then your own or no church at all, which is why I believe that the mom should learn more about this church and attempt a peaceful reconciliation.
But it's naive to think this begins and ends with different liturgies and different communion traditions. And nothing takes away from the fact that the father didn't even attempt to work this out with the mother before he started taking his daughter to a different church.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 4:12:04 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Many Protestant churches do openly speak out against Catholicism and teach doctrines different then what she would learn in Mass, so it goes far beyond communion traditions.
"Many"? I would question where you are getting that from. How many? Have you done research?But that's maybe not for this thread.
quote:
To a lesser extent, pretend you've spent your entire life as a strict, conservative, Southern Baptist, and now you find yourself in a more liberal Methodist church. There are going to be doctrinal differences. You can't just exchange one for the other without confusion at best, pain and rebellion at worst.
We did; we did exactly that, went from a Baptist church to a Methodist chapel. We agreed on the fundamentals, the rest didn't matter to us.
quote:
And nothing takes away from the fact that the father didn't even attempt to work this out with the mother before he started taking his daughter to a different church.
I think it's important we don't ascribe motive and intent here; the dad may not even have realised it would cause problems, as it's presumably the mother who she spends most time with, and who is effectively raising her at least 75% of the time.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 4:12:44 PM
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myka
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Also, the Catholic church generally does not recognize the validity of the sacraments of most Protestant churches.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 4:16:18 PM
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Kath
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quote:
And nothing takes away from the fact that the father didn't even attempt to work this out with the mother before he started taking his daughter to a different church.
This really seems to be the heart of the issue.
quote:
I think it's important we don't ascribe motive and intent here; the dad may not even have realised it would cause problems,
Well, if it was important enough to be added in the divorce decree then yeah, he'd have to know it's important.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 4:22:42 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
And nothing takes away from the fact that the father didn't even attempt to work this out with the mother before he started taking his daughter to a different church.
I think it's important we don't ascribe motive and intent here; the dad may not even have realised it would cause problems, as it's presumably the mother who she spends most time with, and who is effectively raising her at least 75% of the time.
You're right, I'm not getting into why Protestants try to "save" Catholics. Not for this thread.
As far as his "motive", that's irrelevant. He signed a legal agreement, which he completely ignored by taking his daughter to a church different then the one he agreed to in a court of law. I guess if you can claim that "God told me to", do people think that your word should not be binding?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 4:51:00 PM
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Aenjal
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It sounds like a good idea to go thru the bible and church doctrine with your child. There are quite a few different versions of the bible, so you may want to read up on the differences. It may also be a good idea to go to the other church with your child, to see what the pastor/priest is saying, and also, so she can have someone next to her that is coming in with a similar mentality. Try to keep an open mind though, and don't forget to pray about it. If it is a Christian denomination then i think it is a very good idea to check it out. Just remember that if something is different than Catholic belief, it does not mean it is out of line with the word of God. It may be a little uncomfortable to be there with your x, but you could always bring a friend.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 10:08:44 PM
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buckifn
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The issue here seems to be the dad has signed papers that were court ordered and said his child is to be raised catholic.
If he is violating that order it needs to be brought before the Judge and revisisted and the child in question needs to be able to speak for himself to the Judge also.
Greater damage is being done from the child being torn between 2 parent's at opposite sides on an issue than by a church visit once a week, month, or whatever. Parent's influence their child a lot more than a 1 or 2 hour experience at church.
Resolve the conflict legally and peacefully.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/24/2008 11:51:53 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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You do realize that he did not necessarily agree to the parenting plan, right? I know my ex has disagreed with the last three plans or so. You say what you want, he says what he wants, and the judge decides...so saying he gave his word to abide by it may not be true. Not that he shouldn't follow it, but then you get into semantics..what does 'bringing up' mean, etc.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 12:03:27 AM
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MrsTracy72
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The only problem here is that you can say he is violating the order, but none of us are there to know exactly what is going on. Even the child's mother doesn't know if the father has talked to the child and explained the agreement, but that he is no longer catholic and that if they were going to go to church, it would be his new church. Unfortunately that is not a violation of the agreement. If the father required the child to be baptized in his new church and signed the child up for any type of membership type classes, then that would be a direct violation, but simply attending a different church doesn't violate the order because bringing a child up in on church is different than bringing a child to a different church to visit.
It is ok if you dont want to post, but what does your child say makes her feel uncomfortable? Are they valid things? Have you checked into them to see if they were true? Children love to please their parents. For all this father knows, the child is perfectly happy with this. I know that my son has told me things just because he thought they were what I wanted to hear, and has done the same to his dad. He tells him things that are not completely true because he wants him to think he is happy.
Kids who grow up in a divorced family learn very quickly that they need to be able to please BOTH parents and sometimes will do so at any cost. I think that we can all give our advice based on what we are told, but since we are not in this child's head, we still don't know what we are talking about.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 1:19:50 AM
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reach
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How long has he been taking him to the new church? I know my brother said he was going to take my nieces to church and that was very short lived. Do you think this is something that will pass quickly? Does it have to do with getting back at you?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 4:17:17 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsTracy72
The only problem here is that you can say he is violating the order, but none of us are there to know exactly what is going on. Even the child's mother doesn't know if the father has talked to the child and explained the agreement, but that he is no longer catholic and that if they were going to go to church, it would be his new church. Unfortunately that is not a violation of the agreement. If the father required the child to be baptized in his new church and signed the child up for any type of membership type classes, then that would be a direct violation, but simply attending a different church doesn't violate the order because bringing a child up in on church is different than bringing a child to a different church to visit.
It is ok if you dont want to post, but what does your child say makes her feel uncomfortable? Are they valid things? Have you checked into them to see if they were true? Children love to please their parents. For all this father knows, the child is perfectly happy with this. I know that my son has told me things just because he thought they were what I wanted to hear, and has done the same to his dad. He tells him things that are not completely true because he wants him to think he is happy.
Kids who grow up in a divorced family learn very quickly that they need to be able to please BOTH parents and sometimes will do so at any cost. I think that we can all give our advice based on what we are told,but since we are not in this child's head, we still don't know what we are talking about.
Wise and insightful words from Mrs Tracy!
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 4:23:59 AM
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manda59
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I'm actually going right back to the beginning, not to the post, but to the title:
quote:
Child going to wrong church with father's new family (my italics)
Is this a new wife and children? Do they all normally go to this church?
Could I also just ask how long you've been divorced, and how long he's had this "new family"?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 6:15:23 AM
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buckifn
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quote:
You do realize that he did not necessarily agree to the parenting plan, right?
Courts generally don't care whether a person agrees with the decisions handed down. A parenting order handed down by the Judge is legally binding and I strongly believe any violation of such orders should be handled by the court. Otherwise it is going to put the child in the middle of a power struggle between two angry parent's determined to have their own way and the well being of the child is usually lost somewhere in the shuffle.
Using a child's faith to turn into a struggle of wills is obscenely wrong imo. Out of love for the child why not resolve this legally and as quickly as possible?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 6:24:00 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
Using a child's faith to turn into a struggle of wills is obscenely wrong imo. Out of love for the child why not resolve this legally and as quickly as possible?
I agree wholeheartedly with this. We can argue forever about whether or not spending half your Sundays in a Protestant church violates a Judge's order to raise the child Catholic (and it absolutely does), or whether or not the husband agreed to this order (doesn't matter, as he still must submit to the decision of the Judge), but the fact is this child is being torn apart in a very old Catholic/Protestant war.
I can see a million reasons why a child raised Catholic would be upset and confused over what she hears in a Protestant church, never mind the fact that her parents are divorced and her father has a new family.
The parents must either sit down over a kitchen table or in a court of law and rework their agreement, with this new development in mind. That way they can approach the child as a cohesive unit. Otherwise, the child will only continue to suffer from the dad's poor decision to attend a completely new church without even consulting the child's mother about it.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 6:49:41 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
but the fact is this child is being torn apart in a very old Catholic/Protestant war.
I can see a million reasons why a child raised Catholic would be upset and confused over what she hears in a Protestant church, never mind the fact that her parents are divorced and her father has a new family.
There's also plenty of ways to ensure the child isn't upset and confused if this is approached in a calm and reasonable way. At 11 she is old enough to understand that different Christian churches have different ways of doing things, it doesn't have to be made into a big deal.
The Protestant churches I've attended have had good relationships with Catholic churches. Where we last lived (the Isle of Wight), we even organised a Rock Gospel outreach event with all the churches involved - including Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists .... and Catholics. A lovely charismatic Catholic priest took a very active part in everything and everyone got on really well.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 10:23:45 AM
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lexie
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It is still really bugging me that I read here that because the man agreed years ago to raise his child Catholic he should turn his back on the convictions he has now to attend another church because of something he said years ago.
This isn't swimming lessons, this is his faith. I get that the child's feelings are of extreme importance and the most important thing in this situation, but you can't just hold up a piece of paper and say "see you agreed to this" and force the man back into the Catholic church.
And I still hold to what I say...what if 5 years down the road, something makes you realize that the Catholic Church is not for you? Put yourself in the other persons shoes.
My feelings have nothing to do with Catholic/Protestant differences. We take Lord's Supper every week in my non-denominational church and it is very important to me....but I'm not going to lose my salvation if I don't attend every week.
Obviously the parents need to sit down and discuss this and find a reasonable solution. Forcing the man to go back to the Catholic church is not a reasonable solution. If your child is intent on going to the Catholic church then maybe you need to pick her up every Sunday morning, take her to mass and drop her back off at her father's afterwards.
quote:
I guess I will take this as an opportunity and go through the Bible and Catechism of the Catholic church and show her to re enforce our Catholic faith.
Take this as an opportunity to have your child read the Bible independently from your Catholic faith. Your child is old enough to understand and read for themselves. Obviously growing up in the Catholic church they will lean towards that and that is fine, but your child's faith needs to be built upon their own faith in Jesus Christ, and not what others have re-inforced in her.
How much have you and your ex-husband really talked about this situation? It could be that there are some misunderstandings on both sides. Maybe he is upset because he is taking your daughters upset as something you are placing upon her, rather than her actual feelings. Unless you are talking about this face to face and as honestly as possible, there could be some extreme misunderstanding going on.
Has he told you why he chose to leave the Catholic Church?
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 10:26:58 AM
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Jenny-Fair
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I agree, Lexie, with everything you wrote. And I really don't think it has to be a battle. This isn't combining Christianity with Mormonism or Baha'i or something--it's just two different types of Christianity and I really do think it could be handled happily and in a way that does not put pressure on the child.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 10:43:19 AM
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IonMoon
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If it were me... what I would do is assure my child she can be Catholic and still attend another church.
You could go to your ex and demand that he take her to a Catholic church. You could go to the court and demand that he not take her to his church. But what is your goal and how will this really help your child adjust to the divorce? Will this help your dd fit into her step-family? What is your fear about what will happen to your dd if she goes to this church? What is her fear?
When my parents divorced, my dad had me most weekends. Not only did he not take me to a Presbyterian church, he didn't take me to churcha t all. He became agnostic and he studied other faiths and talked to me about those things. That did not affect my Christianity.
Our kids are going to be exposed to all kinds of different religious practices. We need to help them to understand what they believe and why and that being around people who have different beliefs is okay.
Tara P
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 12:26:49 PM
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MrsTracy72
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As somebody who has sort of been through this, I don't think that the ex husband needs to explain why he left the church. I am hearing alot of bitterness here, and please forgive me if I am wrong or sound rude because that is certainly NOT my intention, but it is quite possible that you without knowing it may be saying things to make your child think that what the father is doing is wrong.
He may have agreed to that in a court order or he may not have. Only you have the order in front of you and at least in my state, we could not specify religion, just that we consult eachother on those matters because the state has no right to tell us what religion we can and cannot practice. Most people come to this country for religious freedom.
AND it is about GOD. Not being Catholic or Lutheran, or Non Denomonational or whatever you choose. We all read the same bible if we believe in Christ. We may be reading a different translation, but the messages are the same.
I was not happy when my ex took my child to a Catholic church but it was his intention that I was not happy with. Not the church itself. It was him telling my son that he could be Catholic if he wanted to that I was not happy with because he never talked to me about my son being given a different religion, and he had made it perfectly clear that as far as the church was concerned, he was done with it and any other church since he still to this day does not attend ANY church.
But if your ex is keeping God in your child's life, then you need to first make sure that the church they are going to is based on the bible and nothing more. Then you need to assure your child that the bible is the root of ANY Christian faith and all that your child is learning in the Catholic church is that along with the traditions that go with it.
When I went through my conversion classes, I was taught nothing of the Bible, but all of the "beautiful traditions" of the Catholic church. I was ok with that at the time because I already knew the bible and that it was still the heart of my faith.
Is the bible the heart of your faith and your child's faith? If so, then as long as the church that your child is going to when with her dad is also using the bible as their statement of faith AND preaching it, then your ex is doing nothing wrong. And if you do take it back to court, my guess is that you are going to be told pretty much the same thing. They don't care what church you go to and if you get a judge or commissioner on a bad day, you are going to be very surprised at the reaction you get. It may not be in your favor and since they have final say, you will have to live with whatever they decide.
I don't know about you, but I hate living for a judge or court commissioner. My only judge should be God, but I wake up every day and treat my son as if I will have to answer to a human judge or commissioner for my words or actions. That is no way to live.
You have a choice here. You can examine you and what you believe to be true. You can help your child do the same while letting your child learn more of the Catholic faith and the BIBLE, and you can show your child that all Christians are saved and deserve to be loved.
Or, you can make this a battle. Put your child in the middle. Confuse your child even more. And create chaos in both families.
Those are your choices. I suppose I might be saying different things if you would tell us what is so confusing to your child. If your child goes to a church and they preach the bible and sing songs that are different but yet are still to God's glory, and has no communion, those are all so easily explained. Are you 100% sure you are not letting your feelings get in the way of this?
I am so sorry if this sounds harsh because it is not meant to be. All I am saying is that many people have this problem and live this life. I didn't choose to be divorced but it happened. It took me years to get to the point where I can just look at my child and tell him that I am sorry that he feels the way he does and that I am here to listen. It took me years to be able to explain differences between the two households in a way that was respectful to my ex husband and his wife. It took me years before I was able to include my ex husband and his wife in my prayers, and I still don't do that all of the time.
Just pray over this and let God take over for you. I am sure that God won't steer you wrong. You may fight what you are being told, but try as hard as you can to open your mind AND your heart. Pray for your ex husband and his family. If he really is going to this church because it is what he needs and if it is really in his heart, then I can almost guarantee he is praying for you.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 12:35:14 PM
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lexie
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Beautiful post MrsTracy.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 5:27:00 PM
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MrsTracy72
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Thanks. I hope it isn't harsh because it is not meant to be. Just reality.
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RE: Child going to wrong church with father's new family - 7/25/2008 9:36:28 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
It is still really bugging me that I read here that because the man agreed years ago to raise his child Catholic he should turn his back on the convictions he has now to attend another church because of something he said years ago.
This wasn't something he "just said". He made a legal agreement in court to this effect, and he broke that agreement without so much as a word to his wife.
If his convictions truely changed, and he was an honorable man, he would've approached his wife or gone to court to change the divorce decree. No one is saying that it's wrong for him to become Protestant, but he did not handle this well at all concerning the joint raising of his daughter.
But I suppose I can just stop paying my mortgage if God tells me to stop? Why is the word of a Christian worth anything if they can break it without trying to work things out in an honorable fashion?
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