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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 11:46:26 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1635
Joined: 5/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
So let me get this straight.
CBS put a fake transcript up to incriminate themselves in some sort of Machiavelian scheme to undermine McCain when he's doing a fine job of that by himself?
And what flavor of kool aid are you drinking?
McCain's track record leads me to believe that he knows very little about Iraq and Iraqis. That he spoke as if he were an authority makes it even more laughable except that this man is serious about what he says and that he is running for president.
And we've already seen what one president who knows little or nothing about Iraq leads to.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 11:59:02 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7499
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Whereas McCain was wrong on the chronology you are wrong in saying that the surge was McCain's strategy. His support for it does not make it "his" as he is not the one who created the surge strategy.
McCain was wrong on the chronology and he has been wrong re: Iraq on a number of things, perhaps most notoriously his "waltz" through Shorja and his comments of how peaceful it was there. A bombing the next day proved him wrong.
Actually, McCain has made it clear that he meant the ultimate success of the Awakening and the surge are connected - not an unreasonable position, and certainly more reasonable than Obama's constent assertion that the surge didn't work and was a bad idea.
quote:
Dealing with present realities would require acknowledging the other factors regarding the surge. Such factors as that US troops started to disarm Sunni Iraqis in the capital. Once defenseless, Shia groups came in and ethnically cleansed them. So if death tolls went down - the trumpet card of McCain and surge apologists - it's because there were fewer mixed neighborhoods in Baghdad.
Further expulsions stopped only when US troops wised up to what they were doing re: ethnic cleansing and began to support the Sunni groups (Awakening Councils). Again, this is not necessarily a permanent solution because we've been paying them off. If the money flow stops, there's nothing to guarantee they won't turn their guns on the Shiites or on us.
These facts, and several others, are completely lost on McCain (and on you as well), and this interview convicts him of the very historical revisionism you revile.
Actually I think McCain is pretty clear that the war started and was carrried out for some time badly, and that is why the strategy needed to change later - and a strategy he advocated made a difference. It wouldn't seem you are the far apart on the issue.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 12:22:46 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1635
Joined: 5/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, McCain has made it clear that he meant the ultimate success of the Awakening and the surge are connected - not an unreasonable position, and certainly more reasonable than Obama's constent assertion that the surge didn't work and was a bad idea.
Actually McCain was wrong on the chronology and what you just wrote above does nothing to disprove McCain's ignorance of the facts as per his historical revisionism.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually I think McCain is pretty clear that the war started and was carrried out for some time badly, and that is why the strategy needed to change later - and a strategy he advocated made a difference. It wouldn't seem you are the far apart on the issue.
Actually I think McCain has done a pretty good job of demonstrating how poorly he deals with current realities and the fact that in his interviews thus far he hasn't mentioned the other factors about the surge's "success" is proof.
Again, the facts I mentioned, and others, are completely lost on McCain - and on this regard you are not different from John.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 12:48:20 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7499
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Actually McCain was wrong on the chronology and what you just wrote above does nothing to disprove McCain's ignorance of the facts as per his historical revisionism.
I disagree - I think if it hadn't been for the surge, the 'Awakening' such as it was wouldn't even be a historical footnote.
quote:
Actually I think McCain has done a pretty good job of demonstrating how poorly he deals with current realities and the fact that in his interviews thus far he hasn't mentioned the other factors about the surge's "success" is proof.
Again, the facts I mentioned, and others, are completely lost on McCain - and on this regard you are not different from John.
Yes, well as another Iraqi doomsayer in the Obama school of success denial, I have little regard for your evaluations of such matters. It merely a political expediency.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 1:05:00 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1635
Joined: 5/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I disagree - I think if it hadn't been for the surge, the 'Awakening' such as it was wouldn't even be a historical footnote.
McCain was wrong on the chronology; that you go off on tangents is odd.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Yes, well as another Iraqi doomsayer in the Obama school of success denial, I have little regard for your evaluations of such matters. It merely a political expediency.
This from someone who has repeatedly stood by John McCain, a politician guilty of historical revisionism and ignorant of the present realities in Iraq - from somebody who while defending that ignorant politician, cannot himself refute pertinent facts to the situation on the ground.
Amusing.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 1:34:42 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7499
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
McCain was wrong on the chronology; that you go off on tangents is odd.
I think he didn't articulate it well, but was correct in his assesment.
quote:
This from someone who has repeatedly stood by John McCain, a politician guilty of historical revisionism and ignorant of the present realities in Iraq - from somebody who while defending that ignorant politician, cannot himself refute pertinent facts to the situation on the ground.
Actually, I have not 'repeatedly stood by McCain' - I don't even like him all that much, and didn't vote for him in the primaries. In fact he would have been about number four on the list. And to be quite frank I think his chances of winning are quite remote.
I just know he was right on the surge, and right is right.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 1:44:09 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1635
Joined: 5/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think he didn't articulate it well, but was correct in his assesment.
His assessment was the the surge started before the awakening. It didn't.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I just know he was right on the surge, and right is right.
If you wish to ignore other important factors as I've already shown you, suit yourself. The record does show however McCain made several inaccurate statements on Iraq. He knows little about that country and that war.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 1:57:18 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7499
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
His assessment was the the surge started before the awakening. It didn't.
What he said was:
Colonel McFarlane (phonetic) was contacted by one of the major Sunni sheiks. Because of the surge we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Anbar awakening. I mean, that's just a matter of history. Thanks to General Petraeus, our leadership, and the sacrifice of brave young Americans. I mean, to deny that their sacrifice didn't make possible the success of the surge in Iraq, I think, does a great disservice to young men and women who are serving and have sacrificed.
They were out there. They were protecting these sheiks. We had the Anbar awakening. We now have a government that's effective. We have a legal system that's working, although poorly. And we have progress on all fronts, including an incredible measure of security for the people of Iraq. There will still be attacks. Al Qaeda's not defeated. But the progress has been immense. And to not recognize that, and why it happened, and how it happened, I think is really quite a commentary.
His response to the 'out of order' claim was:
He told reporters during an unscheduled stop in a super market that, what the Bush administration calls "the surge" was actually "made up of a number of components," some of which began before the president's order for more troops.
It's all a matter of semantics, he suggested.
McCain said Army Col. Sean MacFarland started carrying out elements of a new counterinsurgency strategy as early as December 2006.
Personally, I don't care if he got the 'chronology' wrong, as long as he got the policy right. A lot of good it does for someone to be precise, and wrong.
quote:
If you wish to ignore other important factors as I've already shown you, suit yourself. The record does show however McCain made several inaccurate statements on Iraq. He knows little about that country and that war.
I'm not ignoring anything, I just consider good policy to be more important than a good interview.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 1:59:24 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 756
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
His assessment was the the surge started before the awakening. It didn't.
What he said was:
Colonel McFarlane (phonetic) was contacted by one of the major Sunni sheiks. Because of the surge we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Anbar awakening. I mean, that's just a matter of history. Thanks to General Petraeus, our leadership, and the sacrifice of brave young Americans. I mean, to deny that their sacrifice didn't make possible the success of the surge in Iraq, I think, does a great disservice to young men and women who are serving and have sacrificed.
They were out there. They were protecting these sheiks. We had the Anbar awakening. We now have a government that's effective. We have a legal system that's working, although poorly. And we have progress on all fronts, including an incredible measure of security for the people of Iraq. There will still be attacks. Al Qaeda's not defeated. But the progress has been immense. And to not recognize that, and why it happened, and how it happened, I think is really quite a commentary.
His response to the 'out of order' claim was:
He told reporters during an unscheduled stop in a super market that, what the Bush administration calls "the surge" was actually "made up of a number of components," some of which began before the president's order for more troops.
It's all a matter of semantics, he suggested.
McCain said Army Col. Sean MacFarland started carrying out elements of a new counterinsurgency strategy as early as December 2006.
Personally, I don't care if he got the 'chronology' wrong, as long as he got the policy right. A lot of good it does for someone to be precise, and wrong.
quote:
If you wish to ignore other important factors as I've already shown you, suit yourself. The record does show however McCain made several inaccurate statements on Iraq. He knows little about that country and that war.
I'm not ignoring anything, I just consider good policy to be more important than a good interview.
You realize that the sheik refrenced by McCain, the one that called for the "Sunni Awakening" was assasinated right?
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 2:33:15 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 3074
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
How do we know the tape wasn't right and the transcript wrong? It seems there is no way to really verify it, and frankly, the info is coming from people who are suspect -- CBS news? and Keith Olbermann? Yeah, those are really objective and fair sources. 
Give me a break.
Hey, I'm not McCain fan, but momma didn't raise a fool, and I don't trust people who have a vested interest in spinning things a certain way.
This link will lead you to a page from CBS which contains the entire transcript of the interview. Scroll down to see the Couric-McCain exchange which I excerpted several posts above.
I read it when I read the original post. The source is CBS. To reiterate, I'm not a McCain fan. If anyone has seen only a handful of my posts about the election, it's pretty plain I'm not a fan of his. My issue is that this information is suspect simply because it involves CBS. Do I think McCain is sharp? No, I don't, but I also don't think he's quite the liberal that Obama is, and he does have more experience. Also, he was one of the supporters of the successful surge and Obama was not, and thankfully, I don't need CBS news to tell me that. 
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 2:45:10 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7499
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You realize that the sheik refrenced by McCain, the one that called for the "Sunni Awakening" was assasinated right?
Where does he give the name of a sheik?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 2:51:11 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Where does he give the name of a sheik?
He doesn't mention him by name but I am assuming based on the circumstantial evidence that it would be Sheikh Sattar.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/14/world/middleeast/14iraq.html?ref=todayspaper
quote:
BAGHDAD, Sept. 13 — A high-profile Sunni Arab sheik who collaborated with the American military in the fight against jihadist militants in western Iraq was killed in a bomb attack on Thursday near his desert compound. The attack appeared to be a precisely planned assassination meant to undermine one of the Bush administration’s trumpeted achievements in the war.
Two guards were also killed in the attack on the sheik, Abdul Sattar Buzaigh al-Rishawi, who just last week shook hands with President Bush during the president’s surprise visit to Anbar to extol the Sunni cooperation that has made the province, once Iraq’s most dangerous, relatively safe.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/24/2008 6:43:44 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1338
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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quote:
I appreciate you attempts to spin Obama's views on things (funny how often you do that not supporting him and all) but the certain facts in all this is Iraq was turned around primarily by the surge, which McCain strongly supported even as others wavered (indeed, before the Administration moved on it) and it worked.
The surge helped to stabilize Iraq's domestic security because it primarily did what Rumsfeld should have done back in 2003, but stupidly refused to: post an adequate volume of US troops where they should have been posted.
However, the political situation in Iraq is still far from stable, and their infrastructure and economy are still on the ropes.
This is not spin. It's just a fact.
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/25/2008 10:14:55 AM
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saved9201
Posts: 728
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I never have believed the media has a left wing bias. The media just likes a compelling story involving interesting, sometimes controversial people. Their trying to make headlines and get the scoop on their competitors. Conservatives are by definition boring. What does the word "conservative" mean? McCain is an old white guy running for President. Ho hum. Obama is a young, possibly the first black guy running for the highest office in the land. What would be the more compelling story? "Old white guy wins" or "First black man wins"? They don't care about ideology or issues or the future of this country. All they care about is THEIR bottom line. Who people love to love, or who they love to hate, that's who gets the ink. Even Fox news covers Obama extensively, even though in their case, they're reporting his every slip up. That's why McCain suggested going on the world tour together with Obama. That's why he suggested an unprecedented number of town hall debates. Because he knows that he alone can't generate the crowds and enthusiasm Obama can.
My 7 year old granddaughter loves Mylie Cyrus (Hannah Montana). Hannah can't sing a lick, in my opinion, but she draws huge sellout crowds whereever she goes, parents shell out hundreds for tickets, her image is on everything. Is Sears, Wal-mart, and the stores who carry her apparel up front and the TV networks who report on her "in the tank" for Hannah Montana? Where are the Aretha Franklin T-Shirts? Should they have spent more time reporting on the incident where Hannah appeared in a suggestive photo? Why haven't the news media been following her around trying to dig up dirt on her? Trying to find out where she goes to church? Who her friends are? Why haven't they given the same type of coverage to more accomplished singers like Celine Dion, or to wholesome Christian artists like, like, - I can't think of any right now - but you know what I'm talking about. Isn't the answer obvious? Obama Montana sells in the media. McBoring doesn't.
- Julius
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/25/2008 1:00:57 PM
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sylvan
Posts: 120
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Of course pro-McCain propoganda is fine, because he's a war hero and a republican.
Speaking of bias, why exactly is McCain a war hero. Because he received almost every medal possible?? I respect his service, but I also have much concern and respect for our typical soldiers. McCain had roughly 20 hours of combat in an airplane (dropping bombs). Many in Iraq now have 500 times that (and many Vietnam Veterans did too) and they didn't receive anything - except bad care at the VA. Most of these soldiers have faced "hard" combat. Of course, most soldiers don't have an Admiral for a father. Although I'm sure it wasn't comfortable at the Hanoi Hilton, compared to other soldiers without an Admiral father - I imagine it was a true Hilton by comparison.
McCain also has a bad temper, like a kid w/ an ego and chip on his shoulder - perhaps that's why he had the highschool nickname "McNasty". He cusses at fellow Republican's, and loses his cool frequently - although it rarely makes news. The way I see it, the Media has been protecting John McCain for a long long time.
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/25/2008 3:11:01 PM
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jfwink
Posts: 350
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: Arizona
Status: offline
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sylvan asks "why exactly is McCain a war hero" and later suggests that McCain's time in a POW camp was "a true Hilton" compared to others.
What a thing to say.
Here are some details of McCain's time in the POW camp from wikipedia:
In mid-1968, McCain's father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and McCain was offered early release.[42] The North Vietnamese wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes,[43] and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[42] McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[33]
In August of 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain.[44] He was subjected to rope bindings and repeated beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[33][44] Further injuries led to the beginning of a suicide attempt, which was stopped by guards.[33] After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession".[33] He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable,[45] but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."[46] His injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.[47] He subsequently received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.[48] Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions" and propaganda statements.[49]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain
_____________________________
James
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/25/2008 3:58:56 PM
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jfwink
Posts: 350
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: Arizona
Status: offline
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I agree with saved's point earlier about Obama being a more dynamic, interesting candidate than McCain. The candidacy of Obama is history unfolding before our eyes, the idea that an African American is in the running (currently leading in the polls) for leader of the free world.
I'm originally from the South, and though it was a little before my time, it wasn't that long ago (50 years maybe) that blacks were second class citizens there at best, not allowed to eat with whites at lunch counters or use the same restrooms, hosed and attacked by dogs in the streets and much worse.
_____________________________
James
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RE: CBS airs edited McCain interview - 7/25/2008 4:00:52 PM
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sylvan
Posts: 120
Joined: 5/2/2008
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Wikipedia isn't know for it's accuracy. I'm aware of those stories - I've also seen statements from POW's that claim they never saw him mistreated. I think most of his injuries came around the time of the crash. After they found out he was the Admiral's son, they repaired his fractures, etc. If he was mistreated, that's terrible.
I don't know frankly, nor do we. War, politics, propaganda all walk hand-in-hand. What I do know is - A LOT of other soldiers deserve "hero" status.
For the record, I'm voting for a 3rd party - but I will say one thing about Obama. At least he isn't going after McCain like Bush's attack dogs did to John Kerry's military service record. There have been inconsistences in McCain's war stories for years - even last week when he mixed up the Green Bay Packer's with the Pittsburg Steeler's. McCain is a very "sensitive" person as revealed in many of his outbursts. He's tried to "joke it away" in recent weeks, but people that know McCain don't want him around a trigger. His actions do make one wonder what he's trying to hide. I do think the media has been more than fair to him over the years.
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