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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 3:12:26 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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If all the women stopped what they were doing in churches, the American Church would collapse . Totally.
Does anyone really think replacing experienced, trained, organized, intelligent, educated women with any men who happen to show up glorifies God?
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 5:33:10 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Backrowbaptist - So again, what is your definition of feminism & feminity.
The term 'feminism' is a misnomer, at least as it is applied in modern society. It's really 'masculinism', stressing that women cannot be happy until they fill roles and adapt attributes that are traditionally (and biblically) male.
True feminism acknowledges the equal value of women and men before God, but also acknowledges different roles in marriage and in service to God.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 5:38:28 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2399
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
You know, part of the statistics may have to do with the fact that women live longer than men do, on average. We have several elderly widows in our church. If we took them out of the equation, the men to women ration would be just about equal.
Oh please! That's not it.
The feminization of the church started 100 years ago.
Boys are not discipled by their fathers because their fathers
were not discipled by their's either.
Young men leave the church in droves when they leave home.
Then there's the whole earthly father/heavenly father mess
whereby men's relationships with God parallels their earthly
father/son relationship.
Men are performance- based and in America a man's worth and
"abundant life" is defined in material terms rather than spiritual
for generations. Most men's lives are too cluttered with "stuff".
Men are wired to believe what they see, not what they feel.
Speaking as a man, I can say most men are too proud, not humble,
not willing to admit they are wrong, not willing to show weakness or meekness,
and not willing to submit to their will to God. Most men see spirituality
as almost a weakness. The walls are very high and very thick.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 5:40:16 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2399
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
So... a question... instead of arguing over who's fault it is for the men not being there....
What's it going to take to get them to get back into church....
How about a return to biblical doctrines such as
salvation
sanctification
security
assurance
??
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 6:22:07 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
I see! Everything was just fine and all was right with the world until this egalitarianism entered the picture.
No, you don't see at all... not everything was right with the world, but everything was pretty much right (with exceptions) regarding the social issues that today are tearing many denominations and institutions apart.
quote:
Has The Wesleyan Church, The Salvation Army, The Evangelical Methodists, or The Nazarenes "Caved" on social issues?
No, but in reading up, I've heard voices trying to move some of them in that direction.
quote:
"Men need simple, one-point lessons".
Wow. That's pretty insulting to all the intelligent and Godly men I know
Now that I agree with. Some of the ideas thrown out about how to attract men are pretty lame. That's why I say discipleship and strong male leadership are key.
quote:
If we want a look at the masculine extreme, we already have at least two false religions that cater to the egos of men - Mormons and Islam.
Yes, these represent the corruption of God's masculine ideal. All the more reason for christians and churches to project a more biblically masculine alternative. Would Islam have such an appeal to men (especially black men) if todays' church were more biblically masculine?
We also have some churches that cater to corrupted feminine ideals, don't we?
quote:
I agree everyone needs to examine their hearts but i disagree with the last line. THis is a one sided problem
Can't agree there. The whole body is hurt if one part is damaged. No one part can say to the other, 'I have no need of you". Women can, and some are, taking ownership of their part in helping to bring their men into a right relationship with God. http://www.speakingofmen.com/
Women can either be threatened and defensive about this, like some in this forum, or they can give prayerful consideration to what God can and will do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
If we do, will the women now leading the church let go and allow the men to lead?
zmanfan38
I couldn't possibly speak for all women, but as for the ones I know who are in leadership positions in their churches, the answer to your second part there is Praise The Lord...yes, yes, yes
Not bad for a Cubs fan.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 9:26:50 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9954
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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Come on backrowbaptist. I can't believe you really believe that. Lets face it if you have a jar full of water air can't get into the jar. but as the water leaves air slips in. In this case the jar is the church. The water is the men and the air is all the other things you are complaining about replacing the men. The point is nothing can replace men unless we let it. We have to vacate the space for someone else to move in. The truth is as someone else pointed put men don't think going to church, submitting to the power of the Holy Spirit etc is manly. Well I got a news flash for you and them. Real mean pray. Real men cry. Real men worship. Real men accept the authority and the responsibility God gave them. Maybe it's time for you and the rest of the back row baptist, methodist, pentecostal or what ever moved up to the front row and do the job that is yours. Or are you stisfied with things the way they are. Just sitting around placing blame and arguing with women about it and ignoring the rest of us.
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A friend gave me a report with Stats showing that 4,153,237 people got married last year. Now I don't want to start any trouble but I can't help but wonder. Shouldn't that be an even number?
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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 10:16:43 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2906
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Men go where men want to be. Take it to the bank.
In a nutshell, yes.
Interestingly, this has been a consistent theme in the church going back to the 2nd century and quite possibly earlier. Like it says in Ecclesiastes - "there is nothing new under the sun." That's one of my favorite bible verses and I've never found it to be false.
There's a very good book on the subject - can't remember the name of it offhand but will look for it when I get back home. It actually deals with the growth rate of the early church but as part of that deals with some of the challenges that the growth pattern of the early church created. An oversized proportion of women and a supposed femininization of the church was apparent even back then.
Not much is changed. We still worry about where the men are and how much the church caters to a feminine style of worship. There really is nothing new under the sun.
Edit: One book that handles this issue is "The Rise of Christianity" by R. Stark. Some of the statements in that book are a bit off-putting, but it's good read and will challenge some notions of how the early church grew.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/6/2008 10:32:10 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 10:18:35 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2906
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
I believe it's just an excuse. JMHO.
I think I agree- which is the reason for what I wrote about there being nothing new under the sun. It would appear to be an age-old pattern. I don't know the reason for it. I wish it weren't the pattern. But it seems to be so.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 10:24:13 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2906
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The feminization of the church started 100 years ago.
Actually, much much further in the past than that. See R. Stark "The Rise of Christianity" noted above.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/6/2008 10:33:26 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 10:36:48 PM
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zmanfan38
Posts: 8505
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ...for it's root, root, root for the CUBBIES!!!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
I believe it's just an excuse. JMHO.
I think I agree- which is the reason for what I wrote about there being nothing new under the sun. It would appear to be an age-old pattern. I don't know the reason for it. I wish it weren't the pattern. But it seems to be so.
Along these lines, I have a wonderful story about a man and his family's struggles with him not being a Christian or going to church.
This mom and her son went to the church that my hubby and I met and married in (back home). She was so faithful and their son had some issues that eventually were diagnosed as ADHD. They were there every time the doors were open. The mother was very involved in her SS class and in a few ministries in the church. This family was always on the minds of everyone in the church. Our burden for her was so great because she was the spiritual leader of her home and she didn't want it that way (probably not many women do). We were burdened for her husband because he wasn't about to let go of his pride and let Jesus be Lord of his life. Anyway, our church fervently prayed for this man for about 10 years. Are you ready for this??????
He gave his life to The Lord about 3 years ago and is now the spiritual leader of his home. HE is the one up early every Sunday morning, encouraging his family to get their hearts ready for worship. Praise The Lord!!!!
Nothing changed...not the church, not his wife or son, not any other variable. The only thing that changed was HIM. Cool, huh? The church didn't cater to his manliness (well...lack thereof).
Because I had a front row seat to this miracle, I truly believe that this is a one sided problem in that men need to put their pride away and let Jesus be Lord in their lives. I also truly believe that the solution is absolutely not one sided because God does answer prayer and performs miracles in the hearts of people who have sworn never to let Him in.
_____________________________
«Christi»
tattoo
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RE: where are the men? - 8/6/2008 11:07:00 PM
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p31woman
Posts: 632
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas, and now South Dakota
Status: offline
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This has GOT to be parody, right?  Especially the third point-- are you kidding me?! 
From www.speakingofmen.com (linked from churchformen.com):
"But mixed-gender small groups can be tough on men, because women often outperform men without even realizing it. Here’s how it happens:
· Women are often better readers, so they sound “smarter” when they read aloud from the Bible. Men are diagnosed with reading disorders at four times the rate of women. The common practice of asking people to look up Bible verses and read them aloud can be terrifying for men who possess poor reading skills.
· We often pray aloud. Again, women’s highly verbal brains give them an advantage in forming prayers and getting them out of their mouths. Haven’t you noticed that women’s prayers often sound more eloquent than men’s? (preachers being the exception to the rule)
· Women often find Bible passages faster. Women are 29% more likely to read their Bibles regularly, so they find the passages more quickly. And their superior finger dexterity helps them flip through those fine onionskin pages with greater ease.
· Women are often better at socializing and small talk. Gals often feel more comfortable in a social setting because they know just what to say, especially when people are hurting. Guys often don’t."
Well, ladies, I don't know about you, but I for one have been convicted. Now I know that if I *really* care about my brothers in the L-rd, I must pretend to be a poor reader, pray less eloquently, not read my Bible so much, and strive to be more socially inept. If only I'd known years ago! Who knows how many men out there have turned away from G-d because I was able to turn to Habakkuk 2:14 before they did? 
_____________________________
So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah. Colossians 2:16-17
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RE: where are the men? - 8/7/2008 1:30:02 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2906
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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I just never realized how inferior I really am. Glad all my illusions of adequacy have been dispelled now.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: where are the men? - 8/7/2008 8:36:22 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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I am not going to "dumb down" simply because I am a woman. Nor will I assist the church in "dumbing down" . Shallowness is killing the church, and I will not aid men or any other group in keeping it that way.
And if men are truly the way they are being portrayed, how on Earth did Arminus,Wesley, Calvin, Knox, and a host of others ever come up with their theologies?
sorry, gang, but I won't be a part of First Church of the Caveman.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/7/2008 8:59:30 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
If we want a look at the masculine extreme, we already have at least two false religions that cater to the egos of men - Mormons and Islam.
Yes, these represent the corruption of God's masculine ideal. All the more reason for christians and churches to project a more biblically masculine alternative. Would Islam have such an appeal to men (especially black men) if todays' church were more biblically masculine?
We also have some churches that cater to corrupted feminine ideals, don't we?
I HATE replies that go on several screens, but especially annoying are ones where multiple people are addressed in the same post... like we're not worth your time to address individually on each issue. Just dismiss the lot of us with one fell swoop.
Anywhat...
Islam and Mormonism appeal to men, even large numbers of black men, because the ground is level at the foot of the cross - it doesn't play to their worldly male ego or a false sense of superiority. Even when men are given gender-based responsibilty in scripture, it is as Servant-Leader, not lord & master dominance like the growing cults and false religions.
Christianity does not appeal to the world and Jesus told us it wouldn't because it is at odds with the world's values. I'm not inclined to change the faith to meet worldly values in the hopes that will draw in more males - draw them into something no longer what Jesus designed.
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I guess this explains why men can't listen to baseball on the radio, pay attention at staff meetings, or give sales presentations to those Japanese investors. This sort of whiny tripe really is unseemly, especially in the church. I know for a fact this sort of victimhood wouldn't fly in the workplace.
