Ethics in Business question. (Full Version)

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CoachSteve -> Ethics in Business question. (7/24/2008 2:53:58 PM)

I have a question.

I work for an IT company, and I am always looking for opportunities to make some extra money. I have a friend that owns his own company. They are very small so they would not be signing with my company as it would cost them too much money. they don't need a lot of support, mainly a few desktops and setting up a server/tape backup. this company will not be signing a contract with any company, just needs a little help from time to time, and the owner is a friend of mine.

A little background on my company. they do not pay commision to anyone other than sales. they expect us to upsale our clients to newer tech, or failiing systems, but do not give any commisions to us for selling the services, or equipment.

where I live is a right to work state, and I didn't sign any kind of non comp agreement.
my question is, is it unethical for me to help them without my company knowing. like a conflict of interest?
it is a very limited "contract" with this company of a friend of mine who doesn't want to get into a big IT contract.

thanks in advance for your answers and advice.



Conundrum -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/24/2008 3:10:31 PM)

If you have no non-comp agreement, I have no problems with you doing this. It's like a mechanic doing some work on the side for friends.



trainfan -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/24/2008 3:42:55 PM)

I used to work for an office equipment company. We did not have a no-comp agreement for years (later on we did) but it didn't stop them from terminating the employment of people who worked on equipment on the side before we had the agreement. All training was done in house or company paid

Who paid for your training? If you did yourself I wouldn't have a problem with it but if the company paid for your training it would seem you're stealing from your employer.



CoachSteve -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/24/2008 4:00:32 PM)

I have paid for most of my training my self. thre are a few tests that I have taken working for other certs currently, but most of those are just the entry level exams to work towards bigger certs.



kernsfamily -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/24/2008 4:16:14 PM)

read over your Employee Handbook....to make sure.....or ask HR if there are doubts....

in my employee handbook, it states specifically which "industries" that I cannot work in "on the side", for instance...



mvic -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/25/2008 1:50:32 PM)

I know that people get annoyed when I ask :What would Jesus do in this situation?

Whether you have paid for your training or not; consider this: if you did not do the work, your friend's company would eventually have to hire an IT firm, (whether your firm or not), to do the work required. At the end of the day, the work is either needed or not.

So by doing the work yourself you are depriving another business of their legal share of the market.

Like a car mechanic, by doing private work and getting paid for it you are taking away work from people who took all the risks and put up the money upfront to set up a business.

How would you like it if you got a big loan to set up a business and then found out that one of your employees was doing work on the side and depriving you of business?

Then there is the tax man. Will you tell the tax man that you are making more money on the side over and above your salary from your IT firm? If not ... then are you stealing from the tax man?

And let's look at when things go wrong. Say the work you do for your friend's firm results in them losing data, or results in computer downtime or whatever else can go wrong with computers through a mistake on your part. Will your friend remain so friendly? Will he want compensation? Can you provide it?

So ... with this background to consider. What would Jesus do?



ta_mosquito -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/25/2008 1:53:22 PM)

quote:

Like a car mechanic, by doing private work and getting paid for it you are taking away work from people who took all the risks and put up the money upfront to set up a business.


So... if my dad takes care of my grandmother's and a co-worker's car, it's unethical because it's taking away business from some shop? [8|]

Jesus took business away from the physicians of His day... [8D]



mvic -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/25/2008 1:58:14 PM)

Hi TA Mosquito,

If your dad is getting paid by them: the answer is Yes.

If he is not getting paid: the answer is No.

He is either in business for profit or he is not. If he is in business then there's nothing wrong with him doing whatever work he wants.

But he should consider when things go wrong with the car through a fault of his. Will he be prepared to fix it too?



Miss Giggles -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/25/2008 2:00:10 PM)

It depends on whether you are directly competing with your current company or if you have the potential to steal clients. It's a grey area and you did not give enough details.

I think you meant at will state, not right to work. Right to work has to do with mandatory joining of unions.

I'm in IT and in an at will state that is not right to work. Means they can fire you at any time for any reason that is not illegal. Doing work on the side could present an issue depending on the situation.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/25/2008 2:00:12 PM)

So should teenagers not babysit but leave that to the professional day care / child care companies?

What about teens that mow lawns? That's taking business away from lawn care companies.



mvic -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/25/2008 2:19:53 PM)

Hi again TA Mosquito,

Sadly you are right ... teenage baby sitters and lawn mowers (if that's what they are called) are taking business away from the professionals.

The world is becoming too letigious ... many are too quick to sue when things go wrong.

A story from the UK: Birthday party. Children from school visit the home of the birthday child to have fun. One child gets seriously injured. Parents of injured child are suing parents of birthday child.

Now consider a similar accident with a teenage baby sitter or lawn mower?

It's a sad sad world ... I see nothing wrong with teenage baby sitters etc ... they are only earning pocket money. But the risks when things go wrong are always there.

However, I see something wrong and un-ethical for a paid employee of an IT or car mechanic firm doing paid work on the side.

Only this week I have come accross a case where such an individual has been "let go". He is lucky not to have been sued. The HR manager (a Christian friend of mine) decided that it was kinder to just let him go quietly. In fact he asked him to resign to avoid a block on his character if he were fired.



BlueAdept -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/25/2008 3:16:20 PM)

I do not think you doing the work would cause any problems.

Chances are your friend would end up finding someone to pay to set up what needs done and paying them instead of you.

As for taking work from other businesses, OH PLEASE! There are so many competitors out there especially in the IT sector. I can tell you that there is no way a small business is going to sign a contract for IT management. They will either find an employee that has the basic knowledge base and expand it, or hire some college wiz bang kid to do it on a one shot basis.

Heck for that matter they could likely call the Geek Squad and ask them to come in at 80/160 an hour to set it all up.

Would an accountant that works for a CPA firm worry that his office might get bent out of shape for him helping a friend with their books? I really don't think so. As long as it is on your time, it really shouldn't be an issue.



CoachSteve -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/25/2008 3:40:27 PM)

I will try to answer all of the posts. and thank you for all the insightful comments.

Yes I will read the employee hand book this weekend to figure out if there is any specifics on what I can and can't do. I have spoke to my manager before and he said as long as it is people we wouldn't deal with and doesn't take away from company time. but that discussion was about individuals asking for home support. but I know this very small company(9 employees) will never go to my company for IT management.

as far as taking away business from my company, they wouldn't get this business anyway, and if I do the work over another company, in my opinion that is just healthy competition. what about the geek squad working on other peoples home computers when I could be. same thing reversed.

If I make over the amount required to file, I think like 600 or something like that then yes I will most definitely file it with the tax man. I don't cheat on my taxes and would not start now. but that is a very good comment. alot of people wouldn't think about that.

thank you giggles, yes it is an at will state. they can fire me for whatever. as far as competing with my company and stealing clients, the small company has already stated to me they don't want IT management they just want some help setting up a server, and networking computers, and setting up backups. basically a one time thing. As far as if things go wrong, that is something I am thinking about and how to handle that. That has always been a concern even when working on personal PCs for other people(individuals).

I do appreciate all the comments and will give any more info that is asked. I am not ashamed of thinking about taking this job. I do think that if I bring my company in, who will over charge a small comapny, they will just find someone else and my company/and or me will be out the money they are paying. just the way I see after talking to the potential client.



rhippie -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/25/2008 4:39:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

I know that people get annoyed when I ask :What would Jesus do in this situation?

Whether you have paid for your training or not; consider this: if you did not do the work, your friend's company would eventually have to hire an IT firm, (whether your firm or not), to do the work required. At the end of the day, the work is either needed or not.

So by doing the work yourself you are depriving another business of their legal share of the market.

Like a car mechanic, by doing private work and getting paid for it you are taking away work from people who took all the risks and put up the money upfront to set up a business.


Sorry but I disagree with this concept entirely. If I follow this logic to its conclusion then none of us should ever have left the first job we had since we received training from that company. This would be the case even if you had gone to school for training since, as I'm sure you are aware, an education doesn't cover "real world" situations; such situations require real world experience to learn from.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic
How would you like it if you got a big loan to set up a business and then found out that one of your employees was doing work on the side and depriving you of business?


Just because an employee is doing work on the side does not mean they are depriving your company of any business; unless you signed a "covenant not to compete" then there really is no conflict.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic
Then there is the tax man. Will you tell the tax man that you are making more money on the side over and above your salary from your IT firm? If not ... then are you stealing from the tax man?


This is by far one of the most absurd assumptions I've seen in a long time.....Christians aren't going to report their income but instead are going to lie and cheat and steal!! PUHLEESE!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic
And let's look at when things go wrong. Say the work you do for your friend's firm results in them losing data, or results in computer downtime or whatever else can go wrong with computers through a mistake on your part. Will your friend remain so friendly? Will he want compensation? Can you provide it?


And if I'm working for a company and something goes wrong? How does the company correct the mistake? Can you say liability insurance?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic
So ... with this background to consider. What would Jesus do?


I don't know but it amazes me that you are espousing the concept that Jesus would discourage someone from helping to provide for their family or from assisting a friend. What do you think Jesus would do?



rhippie -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/25/2008 4:43:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoachSteve

I

If I make over the amount required to file, I think like 600 or something like that then yes I will most definitely file it with the tax man. I don't cheat on my taxes and would not start now. but that is a very good comment. alot of people wouldn't think about that.



Just for the record there is NO minimum amount at which you must report the income. The IRS says that ALL income needs to be reported with the appropriate expenses being claimed against the income. If you make even $10 you are required to report it to the IRS.



CoachSteve -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/26/2008 11:39:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhippie

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoachSteve

I

If I make over the amount required to file, I think like 600 or something like that then yes I will most definitely file it with the tax man. I don't cheat on my taxes and would not start now. but that is a very good comment. alot of people wouldn't think about that.



Just for the record there is NO minimum amount at which you must report the income. The IRS says that ALL income needs to be reported with the appropriate expenses being claimed against the income. If you make even $10 you are required to report it to the IRS.


that I DID NOT know. I thought that if you made under 600(not sure) dollars in 1 year from the same company, then you did not have to report it. I will make sure to keep good record then so that I can turn it in to the tax man. thanks for all the input and suggestions.



Random -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/26/2008 12:48:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoachSteve

that I DID NOT know. I thought that if you made under 600(not sure) dollars in 1 year from the same company, then you did not have to report it. I will make sure to keep good record then so that I can turn it in to the tax man. thanks for all the input and suggestions.



You are mixing two different things. Businesses who PAY someone more than $600 are required to report that to the person and the IRS on a 1099. The reason for the $600 threshhold is administrative -- it would be costly to send a 1099 for someone you paid $15.

However, as rhippie said, there is NO minimum amount before you, the recipient, have to report it. Get $1 and you are required to report it, the payer just does not have to send a 1099.

Do you understand the difference now? If not, we can clarify.



relady -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/26/2008 2:38:22 PM)

quote:

So by doing the work yourself you are depriving another business of their legal share of the market.

Like a car mechanic, by doing private work and getting paid for it you are taking away work from people who took all the risks and put up the money upfront to set up a business.
Huh? So it's just patently unethical to work on the side in the same business in which you are employed? Since when? If there is no non-compete agreement and he is not working on the side for a company client then I see no problem with it at all.

quote:

However, I see something wrong and un-ethical for a paid employee of an IT or car mechanic firm doing paid work on the side.
I only see this as a problem if the employee is working on the side for clients of the employer. Then, yes, it's an issue. Other than that, as long as there is no employer prohibition then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.



zoebob -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/26/2008 10:55:52 PM)

I would say that if you are not using your company's equiptment or time and there is nothing in the handbook that says you can't do it, then it's not stealing from the company.

Same with the mechanic. If he does it in his boss's shop, with boss's tools, on the boss's time (and any combination of the above) then he needs to bill it through the company. However, if he does it in his own garage on his own time with his own tools then it's not a problem.



mvic -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/27/2008 10:35:41 AM)

I respect and understand your points of view.

How would you feel if you run your own business (fixing cars) and un-beknown to you, several of your employees are using their own tools, in their own time and in their own homes, fixing other peoples' cars.

They come to work for you in the morning, but there's little business coming in. You still have to pay them a wage. Do all the HR and Tax paper work. Pay rent on your premises, plus gas and electricity etc ... And don't forget interest on the loan you took to start your business.

Why is there little work coming in to you? Because your staff don't have any overheads and charge less for the same work done on your premises.

Ethical or not?



BlueAdept -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/27/2008 2:42:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

I respect and understand your points of view.

How would you feel if you run your own business (fixing cars) and un-beknown to you, several of your employees are using their own tools, in their own time and in their own homes, fixing other peoples' cars.

They come to work for you in the morning, but there's little business coming in. You still have to pay them a wage. Do all the HR and Tax paper work. Pay rent on your premises, plus gas and electricity etc ... And don't forget interest on the loan you took to start your business.

Why is there little work coming in to you? Because your staff don't have any overheads and charge less for the same work done on your premises.

Ethical or not?


That is a TOTALLY different issue. If I own my own business, a auto repair shop, and there is no business coming in; I would be wondering WHY that is. I doubt that my 'wrenchs' would be stealing my business. Chances are the reason I have no business, is my shops reputation is shot because of shoddy work. When you run a good shop, word gets around and not having enough business is not likely to be an issue.

As for paying rent, and taxes....etc, those are side points. The ONLY way this could be an issue, is a current client of the business came to him and ask him to come in after hours and do some work. Heck even if an employee of a client asked him to do some work on the side it would not be an issue, since once again the work would not have come to the business any way.

Lets throw in out another way. Say that a local large church calls this guy, large enough that it COULD be a client of the business, and they want him to come in and set up their network, tape backups, and email server. Would it be ethical for him to either do the work, or donate the work as a in kind donation? That to me would be a better question, and a much grayer area. Since he then COULD be taking work from the business.



rhippie -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/27/2008 3:25:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

I respect and understand your points of view.

How would you feel if you run your own business (fixing cars) and un-beknown to you, several of your employees are using their own tools, in their own time and in their own homes, fixing other peoples' cars.


I would not care and it would be none of my business unless, as was previously pointed out, they were doing the work for my current customers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic
They come to work for you in the morning, but there's little business coming in. You still have to pay them a wage. Do all the HR and Tax paper work. Pay rent on your premises, plus gas and electricity etc ... And don't forget interest on the loan you took to start your business.

Why is there little work coming in to you? Because your staff don't have any overheads and charge less for the same work done on your premises.

Ethical or not?


Maybe I should adjust my rates to reman competitive so that I would have business coming in; and for the record if I had little work coming in I would lay off the employees



ta_mosquito -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/27/2008 6:09:55 PM)

I agree with BlueAdept and rhippie. I don't see why I should be upset about my workers doing jobs on the side that aren't my customers anyway.



Mrs.Wifey -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/27/2008 8:00:27 PM)

quote:

How would you feel if you run your own business (fixing cars) and un-beknown to you, several of your employees are using their own tools, in their own time and in their own homes, fixing other peoples' cars.


I'd say "good for you!", especially if they(like the OP) paid for their own training.


How do you think business are grown?

People get an initial job after receiving training, and when they get good at what they do, they branch out and start their own business. My DH is in the financial management industry where it's COMMON to build a client base and then leave the company and take your clients with you... Is that also unethical.

Give me a break.

OP, I see nothing wrong with what you are proposing to do, as long as it complies with your employee handbook.



CoachSteve -> RE: Ethics in Business question. (7/27/2008 9:29:10 PM)

wow, thank you so much for all the intelligent responses. i didn't think I would get this many responses. so me being born with a conscience(sp), some might call that the Holy Spirit talking to me. hehe. I actually went and spoke to a director of the company who used to be my boss. he said it was fine with him since they weren't going to be giving the business to my company. I wil lhave the company 1099 me so I can report to the IRS and keep everything on the up and up. I feel very good about this opportunity.

thanks again for all the responses and insight.



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