Any Wesleyans out there? (Full Version)

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Annie64 -> Any Wesleyans out there? (7/27/2008 2:37:17 AM)

I'm not talking about Wesleyan-Arminian doctrine. I'm talking about the Wesleyan Church denomination. I just read through the thread on the Nazarene denomination, where the OP had questions about what Nazarenes believed. Reading that thread made me wonder if there are other Wesleyans besides me on these boards. Wesleyans are virtually identical to the Nazarene church, only a much smaller denomination. Its so small that whenever I'm travelling and see a Wesleyan church, I feel a kinship with whoever goes there, even though I don't know them. I guess I get this from my parents. When I was a child, my family went on vacation one year to Cherokee, North Carolina, and while we were there we happened to pass the Cherokee Wesleyan Church. We had no plans to stay over Sunday that year, so we had to come back the next year just to visit that church!

Wesleyans have great respect for all believers in Jesus, even if you don't agree with us on non-essentials. But I find that Christians in general have often never heard of us, though they may have heard of two of our colleges: Houghton University in New York, and Indiana Wesleyan University in Indiana. Maybe I'm only finding people who have heard of IWU because I live in Indianapolis.

So my question is this: Are there other Wesleyans on these forums? Or people who used to be at one time or another? Or if not, are there people who have actually heard of us? Go ahead and reply even if you have a negative opinion of Wesleyans. I love the Wesleyan Church, but I know we aren't perfect. I'm not asking because I think Wesleyans are better than anybody else. I'm just curious.



kimmiejake -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (7/27/2008 9:27:32 AM)

I was raised Wesleyan. When our church closed, we began attending the nearest Nazarene church. When I married my husband and moved 2 hours south, there was no Wesleyan church, so we attended Baptist and Nazarene churches. We have since moved on to a non-denominational church that is doctrinally sound.

In fact, I bet I know some of the same folks you do. I'm in Ky, and attended Youth and "Big" (or Family) Camp at both Maysville, KY, and Fern Creek, KY. I grew up with wonderful mentors like Bro. Richerson, Bro. and Mrs. Tilly, Bro. Possehl. Fond, fond memories. It still irritates me to think of girls being able to wear pants and shorts (!) at Nazarene camp.

So you've got a sister in Kentucky! LOL



Annie64 -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (7/28/2008 12:57:59 AM)

Hi, Sister Kimmie! Welcome to the boards! I don't know any of the people you named. I'm from Virginia originally. But we probably do know some of the same people anyway. Some of my friends used to say the Wesleyan World is a small world!

Thanks for answering! This was my last unread subscription when I came back on Crosswalk tonight, and I was thinking I hadn't gotten any replies. I'm so glad you answered!



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (7/28/2008 1:25:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Annie64
So my question is this: Are there other Wesleyans on these forums? Or people who used to be at one time or another? Or if not, are there people who have actually heard of us? Go ahead and reply even if you have a negative opinion of Wesleyans. I love the Wesleyan Church, but I know we aren't perfect. I'm not asking because I think Wesleyans are better than anybody else. I'm just curious.


I attended a church that called itself Wesleyan some years ago, but was not a member. I only attended maybe a total of 25 or fewer times. I don't think, however, that they are part of the organization you attend.

Is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesleyan_Church about your church organization, or is yours something different?



Annie64 -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (7/28/2008 2:16:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

I attended a church that called itself Wesleyan some years ago, but was not a member. I only attended maybe a total of 25 or fewer times. I don't think, however, that they are part of the organization you attend.

Is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesleyan_Church about your church organization, or is yours something different?


Yep, that's the one. And there are a lot of churches with the name Wesleyan which are not affiliated with the denomination. I even have a co-worker who grew up in one, too,and when I told him I was Wesleyan, he was surprised, because he thought Wesleyan women wore dresses and buns all the time. He was totally blown away when I told him I like Contemporary Christian music! [:D]



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (7/28/2008 2:43:08 AM)

Well, Annie, I am relieved. [;)] I will read about your church on Wiki later. It will be interesting. You might contact DRMark -- he's a nice guy on CW and he's Wesleyan. He will likely find this, really.

By the way, the church I once belonged to (for 50 years) said they were Wesleyan, but they weren't really, I think. They really didn't match up to any churches except their own organization.



Annie64 -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (7/28/2008 4:59:55 AM)

Yes, you and I and DrMark had a very good conversation on another thread recently. I kind of hope he does show up here.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (7/28/2008 11:10:47 AM)

Oh, good night, Annie. Forgive me. I keep getting it in my head that you are newish, while you obviously are not. Of course, you know Mark.

Annie, what would you say is the major difference between your (and your church's) beliefs and the general beliefs of the common church -- let's say the three top differences? Are these differences what drew you to your church and keeps you there, or was it something else?

What would it be like for me to visit your church?

How does your church differ from the Nazarene Church and from the church that uses the name "Wesleyan Methodist"?

Again, forgive me -- because of my background as well as my present vocation, I am always interested in those who hold to the Wesleyan doctrines.



Annie64 -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/2/2008 1:44:01 AM)

Hi, Abiyah! Sorry it's been a few days. I haven't been on CW for a few days. I'll try to answer your questions.

Let's see--top three major differences between our denomination and others: We are Wesleyan/Arminian in doctrine. We do not teach that believers are supposed to speak in tongues. I don't think we're legalistic, but a lot of people would disagree with me on that. We do not teach that women have to only wear dresses or long hair. In fact, Wesleyans have always ordained Women ministers, and my 15-year-old daughter says she wants to go into youth ministry. I guess some would say we are legalistic, though, in that we teach that Christians shouldn't drink alcohol, use tobacco products, or belong to secret societies. Until this summer's general conference, you couldn't be a voting member and do any of these things. We have been legalistic in the past. I grew up with the rule being that you couldn't go to social dances, and did not go to my high school prom. That rule was taken out of our Discipline in 1984, but dancing is still frowned on. I've never been to a wedding that had it!

No, I wouldn't say what drew me to the church and keeps me there was the differences between Wesleyans and other denominations. What drew me to the church was that it was the one that nurtured me. When I was born my family belonged to a denomination called Pilgrim Holiness. Four years later the Pilgrim Holiness denomination merged with the Wesleyan Methodist denomination and became the Wesleyan Church. I've been a Wesleyan ever since. I'm 44 years old, so I guess I've been a Wesleyan for 40 years [:D]. What keeps me there? The sincere Christians I've met in the Wesleyan church, and the emphasis on obedience to Scripture and on a genuine testimony of knowing the Lord.

How does the Wesleyan Church differ from the Nazarene Church? They have more people. That's about it. I think they have been faster to move away from legalism (my dad would call it lower their standards) than the Wesleyan church.

What would it be like to visit my church? Not a whole lot different from visiting any other Protestant Evangelical denomination in America, except that we have few mega-churches, and few wealthy people. One thing I don't like is that we have few people of minority races. Our average local church size is certainly less than 200 people on any given Sunday morning service. Our church's history is that we split off the Methodist church in the 1840's over abolition, which we believed in, but the Methodists refused to support. But we're mostly a white denomination today.

I'm glad you're interested--it gave me an excuse to talk! [sm=angel.gif]I hope this post isn't too long. I really enjoyed answering your questions, and I'm greatly complimented that you asked them. You said your background and present vocation made you interested. What is your vocation?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/2/2008 9:41:10 AM)

I work for a Nazarene church and through that, have gotten to know the people there, especially the pastor, because I am his assistant. I worked for the church initially when they had no pastor, so I ran the office by myself. When they hired a pastor, my first thought was, "Well, my job is over!" because I had not had good experiences with "holiness" (in quotes for a good reason) pastors in the past, at the church I used to attend. But when he came, he was a decent man with his head and morals intact. He is almost young enough to be my son! But bottom line, among the 13 or so pastors I have had and have dealt with through my life, he ranks top on the ladder (my place of worship does not have pastors).

Thank you for telling me about your church. I had known some Pilgrim Holiness persons in the very long ago past, and had some dealings with some people from churches with Wesley in the name. All this really confuses me, because they carry the Wesley name, but they believe so differently and are very adamant about the differences that I am not always able to see. [:D] Added to these are all the churches without Wesley in their names, but they hold so strongly to Wesleyan doctrine and quote him often. Then there are those who hold to Wesleyan doctrine but they don't bring up his name as often or quote him so much.

I am so inexperienced with these concepts! I have only belonged to one church organization in my life and one shul (my place of worship), although I have been in some services in other churches on occasion and had my children in a Baptist school where I learned some of their doctrine. But there are a kajillion types of Baptist, too! Ten years ago, I had no clue how many different beliefs there are.

Regarding minorities in the services, that is the saddest thing about most. I think we really hurt ourselves with our history and our slowness at recognizing what we had done and the slowness at trying to heal our nation. We tried in the '60s and '70, but we seem to have been sliding backwards over the last 20 years.

Well, again, thank you! [:)]



Sadey -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/2/2008 10:25:55 AM)

We have gone to a Wesleyan church for 7 years and have been so blessed. It is the most loving and welcoming church I've ever been in.
Not at all legalistic but I think that has a lot to do with who your pastor is.

Our church has grown a lot and pulls people in from all over, from many different communities. Jesus is the head of our church, he leads, we follow and you just can't go wrong with that.



DaveW -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/4/2008 1:05:06 PM)

My dad was an assistant pastor in the Wesleyan Methodist chuch back in the early 1950s. He was kicked out when his first marriage broke up. He and my mom attended a Church of the Nazarene until that marriage broke up also.

I have good friends that attended a Wesleyan congregation after they moved away from my home town. I expected the heavy handed legalism that my dad described, but they did not experience that at all.

Dad grew up believing that sports of any kind, any makeup, any jewelery including wedding bands, short sleeve shirts were all sinful.



drmark -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/7/2008 11:32:52 PM)

quote:

Yes, you and I and DrMark had a very good conversation on another thread recently. I kind of hope he does show up here.
Well, I'm here -what would you like me to say. I thought the thread was for members/attendees of the Wesleyan Church and as some of you know, I am affiliated with the Church of the Nazarene, a sister denomination in the Wesleyan/Holiness tradition. I recall reading that the Wesleyan and Nazarene denominations have held merger talks at various times in the past, but i do not there their current status.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/8/2008 12:11:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
. . . I recall reading that the Wesleyan and Nazarene denominations have held merger talks at various times in the past, but i do not there their current status.

Wow. That would be something else. I would think, though, that the Wesleyans they may be thinking of merging with are more like what Annie describes?



Annie64 -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/8/2008 1:34:13 AM)

Yes, the Wesleyan Church and the Nazarene Church have had merger talks. I haven't heard anything about it in a long time, though, and I doubt that it will actually happen.

Hi, Sadey! I've been enjoying the responses I've been getting, and especially the conversation with Abiyah, but I was beginning to wonder if I was the only current representative of the Wesleyan Church on CW! Glad you found the thread and responded![:)]

DaveW, the heavy-handed legalism you describe was part of Wesleyan church history. I kind of I think it may have had something to do with the culture and time that the denomination developed. It may also have to do with why we are so small. We have at least one district that is still a little that way. I'm so thankful we have moved away from that!



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/8/2008 8:18:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Annie64
DaveW, the heavy-handed legalism you describe was part of Wesleyan church history. I kind of I think it may have had something to do with the culture and time that the denomination developed. It may also have to do with why we are so small. We have at least one district that is still a little that way. I'm so thankful we have moved away from that!

I have often thought of this because of the way I was reared, in the church I was reared in. Certainly, some of the silliness (upon looking back) was evidence of the times. I have heard recordings of the preachers of the church I was in, and have thought that some of them sound like English-speaking Hitlers. [:D] It was what they had of recorded speaking at that time, so perhaps that was all they knew of public speaking, because the church I attended did not believe in going to seminaries or even college.

Their heavy hand with children also emulated the times, because then, children were chattel.

But I guess that is not what this thread is about.

I looked up Wesleyan churches on the Internet, and the nearest one is pretty far away. I was curious. But every time I think I will visit a church, I wake up on Sunday morning and ended up going back to bed or getting busy or doing necessary shopping. It would have been interesting, because I would like to wipe out, expunge, get rid of, demolish (!) my present concept of churches with "Wesley" in their names. It is too bad that some of them are so -- well, you know. I am glad your church isn't like that.



drmark -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/9/2008 8:38:56 AM)

quote:

DaveW, the heavy-handed legalism you describe was part of Wesleyan church history. I kind of I think it may have had something to do with the culture and time that the denomination developed. It may also have to do with why we are so small. We have at least one district that is still a little that way. I'm so thankful we have moved away from that!
"Heavy-handed" legalism is the obvious logical extreme of Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine throughout the centuries. Antinomianism is the obvious logical extreme of Reformed Theology. Personally, I would rather be called a legalist for my holy lifestyle than a lawless constant sinner for the opposite!



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/9/2008 11:04:34 AM)

Both beliefs that add to the Word and those that are Lawless are in the same sinking boat: one adds to the understanding of salvation and the other detracts from it. Either way, it is sin.



drmark -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/9/2008 8:29:42 PM)

But the big difference, Abiyah, is in the eye of the beholder. We all can see the outward sin of the antinomian, but none of us can know the heart of one whose holy behavior may be motivated by legalism. God and I know my heart and I thank Him for those who call me a legalist since my actions may be convicting them of their sinfulness.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/9/2008 8:47:41 PM)

Hee-hee-hee! You get called legalist, too. Doncha just love it? [:D]



Annie64 -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/9/2008 11:06:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

"Heavy-handed" legalism is the obvious logical extreme of Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine throughout the centuries. Antinomianism is the obvious logical extreme of Reformed Theology. Personally, I would rather be called a legalist for my holy lifestyle than a lawless constant sinner for the opposite!


I can see that. When I was growing up, I had a very big fear that I was going to lose my salvation by not living up to everything. But that happens when rules get added to the definition of holiness. That doesn't have to happen.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/9/2008 11:15:05 PM)

Since all of us come from varying biblical understandings which color our concepts of ideas relating to the Bible, I am curious how those who follow a Wesleyan-type doctrine personally define legalism.

Since I asked, although I am not Wesleyan, I will give my personal definition.

I see legalism as adding to the Word and making the additions carry the weight of being salvific. It doesn't usually bother me when people have some minor expectations of active members, as long as people are not judged to be nonbelievers for not complying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Annie64
When I was growing up, I had a very big fear that I was going to lose my salvation by not living up to everything. But that happens when rules get added to the definition of holiness. That doesn't have to happen.

Oh, me, too! They (not Wesleyan) taught that I had to be without sin, error, etc. I wasn't. I lived in constant fear of going to hell, and I couldn't figure out how others could be so perfect when I wasn't.



Annie64 -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/9/2008 11:36:04 PM)

Legalism, as I have experienced it and struggled with in my own life (yes, I've struggled with it, even though I've said that my church has moved away from it. It has, but I've had my own struggles with it), is a belief that, while we're saved by the Blood of Jesus alone, salvation must be maintained by conformity to certain standards. Early in my Christian walk, I heard on the radio on Focus on the Family James Dobson's famous interview with Ted Bundy. Ted Bundy professed to have become a Christian and I had no trouble believing that he could have--that a person who had committed such heinous crimes could be granted repentance and come to faith in Jesus Christ, and that God would forgive him and grant him salvation. What I had trouble believing was that I would be able to stay saved myself for the rest of the day. It took a while for me to grow to where I desired holiness because I loved the Lord and wanted to please him, and not just so I'd stay okay.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/9/2008 11:42:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Annie64
It took a while for me to grow to where I desired holiness because I loved the Lord and wanted to please him, and not just so I'd stay okay.

Oh, no kidding! I can SO relate!



drmark -> RE: Any Wesleyans out there? (8/10/2008 12:05:50 AM)

quote:

salvation must be maintained by conformity to certain standards.
This is not legalism unless one is trying to conform by their own ability, in my personal understanding. Scriptural holiness (Hebrews 12:14) is transformation of heart (Romans 12:2) in order to renew our minds to that of Christ (1 Cor 2:16). Certain standards of living are commanded throughout God's Word. The issue is how will we satisfy them - in our strength or in His Strength?



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