|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/7/2008 6:51:06 AM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1879
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
Can somebody loan me $250 and a tux rental so that I can attend Apostle Dr. Frederick K. C. Price's Apostle of Faith Library Fundraiser Dinner in honor of Frederick K. C. Price at the Regent Beverly Wilshire Hotel in Beverly Hills, California, on Monday July 21st...wait that's over! But it was still on his website! Whose? Well, now, I can't name any names. I'll just come against those Apostles of Faith who don't update their webpages after their high-dollar black tie fundraisers to build a library in their honor.
Really narrows it down though!
< Message edited by wintery -- 8/7/2008 6:59:21 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/7/2008 4:19:00 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6269
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
Wes,
Who are you to even think you can name the all mighty and high self-appointed Apostles and Prophets?!
Only someone directly above them can do that. Didn't you know they are more anointed than you and hold positions higher than what you have been given?
You are nothing but a basic measly Christian, pfft. You're lucky if you can name your seat at your church.
< Message edited by earthless -- 8/7/2008 5:55:59 PM >
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/7/2008 7:54:25 PM
|
|
|
TheBibleTRUTH
Posts: 94
Joined: 7/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Bonafide false teacher. Here is a classic audio piece.
And a nice compliment piece for one of the underlying problems: HERE
That video is one the funniest videos I have ever seen. Thank you earthless for that gem. :D
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/7/2008 10:04:34 PM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 939
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
Adam,
You keep stressing this point, and I cannot fathom your reasoning. To point out doctrinal errors, it becomes necessary to quote the material being spread that is incorrect. What good will it serve the people who are being deceived by the preachers that teach incorrectly if they (the people) cannot be told that their teachers are the ones who are wrong? Do we just stand and say, "I heard someone say this the other day...."? Will that truly help without a forum? These false teachers have a huge audience, and many of the people who point out the errors have little sway in the populace. The gain will be in the desire and love to help others see the truth when it is practiced by many of the "small" people.
I keep stressing that point because nobody acknowledges the point... as if I wasn't saying it.
Here is my point. You can start a thread that argues about doctrine (ie, is salvation necessary for baptism) that then quotes several sources... Or you can start a thread about how bad a preacher is, and then quote them to show their "heresy". It can also be said this way... Arguing about egalitarianism, or arguing over the validity and "christian-ness" of Joyce Meyer. That is what I'm driving at. There is a difference between arguing doctrine that quotes a source, and slashing at an individual's reputation or ministry. In arguing doctrine, it usually becomes painfully obvious who you disagree with and dislike... there is zero need to focus in on a single individual, especially when those problems are of a similar stripe of a larger movement. That is what I am talking about.quote:
Who are you to even think you can name the all mighty and high self-appointed Apostles and Prophets?!
Only someone directly above them can do that. Didn't you know they are more anointed than you and hold positions higher than what you have been given?
You are nothing but a basic measly Christian, pfft. You're lucky if you can name your seat at your church.
(A) If you have a seat at church that is "yours", you have issues of a different nature than we are discussing right now.
(B) The attempted sarcasm/humor is a deflection away from the objections I raised to your "use" of scripture.
(C) Wes didn't name anyone in particular...
(D) You don't need to mock me like I'm not here.
(E) The idea I have been defending says nothing of anoiting levels or any such thing. The idea I am putting forth is merely basic respect for the dignity of another human being. If you have a problem extending that basic dignity, I woud be quite frightened to be in your church.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/7/2008 10:12:54 PM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1879
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
There is a difference between arguing doctrine that quotes a source, and slashing at an individual's reputation or ministry.
I would say the discussions have been completely ineffective at causing harm to an individual's reputation or ministry---such as those may be.
The value of the discussions is so that the uninformed may have a chance to choose to NOT believe what is otherwise being pumped through the "one-way" medium of television and other one-way media.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/7/2008 10:15:05 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6269
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
Adam,
We get it. You think it is wrong to name names and you keep saying this conversation "bores" you and yet you keep coming back to post. I respect every human being's dignity, that does not mean their false teaching that carry eternal and physical consequences are to be ignored and no, I will not do so without naming names.
It is absolutely absurd to say a Christian cannot name the name of a public individual whose teachings and platform are public and broadcast for maximum exposure. It is a disservice to those that need to be informed and warned. And it is an affront to the numerous examples left for us by God in His Word.
You will not change that fact of what I and others do and will continue to do until the day the Lord stops us.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/7/2008 10:18:55 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6269
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheBibleTRUTH
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Bonafide false teacher. Here is a classic audio piece.
And a nice compliment piece for one of the underlying problems: HERE
That video is one the funniest videos I have ever seen. Thank you earthless for that gem. :D
The sad video is the second one I posted the other day. Where Fred Price is saying that God wants nothing to do with and will not work with an individual that is physically handicapped or maimed.
What an affront to those of our brothers and sisters in the Lord that suffer from such ailments and yet their faith, often times, make the "healthy" Christians look like nothing.
I am reminded of Joni Erickson Tada - a wonderful woman of God that many in the circles whose names we ought not to speak - would say she is deserving of.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/8/2008 10:50:38 AM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1879
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I keep stressing that point because nobody acknowledges the point... as if I wasn't saying it.
Here is my point. You can start a thread that argues about doctrine (ie, is salvation necessary for baptism) that then quotes several sources... Or you can start a thread about how bad a preacher is, and then quote them to show their "heresy". It can also be said this way... Arguing about egalitarianism, or arguing over the validity and "christian-ness" of Joyce Meyer. That is what I'm driving at. There is a difference between arguing doctrine that quotes a source, and slashing at an individual's reputation or ministry. In arguing doctrine, it usually becomes painfully obvious who you disagree with and dislike... there is zero need to focus in on a single individual, especially when those problems are of a similar stripe of a larger movement. That is what I am talking about
Another thought about this: Moral failings, character problems--the lack of godly spiritual fruit--these go hand-in-hand with false teachings. Just a glance at Price's website would indicate at a minimum an elevated ego and a grabbing greed.
It's one thing to argue a point that tries to turn the fault on the critics and another thing to look at what is being defended and determine if it's really defensible.
The _myth_ of the "good" false prophet is just that.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/9/2008 3:55:04 AM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 939
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
I would say the discussions have been completely ineffective at causing harm to an individual's reputation or ministry---such as those may be.
The value of the discussions is so that the uninformed may have a chance to choose to NOT believe what is otherwise being pumped through the "one-way" medium of television and other one-way media. Okay............ so you just admitted that these threads do nothing.
"The value of the discussion is so that the uninformed may have a chance to choose to not believe is otherwise being pumped through the one-way medium of television..." So we are having these conversations so that the nebulous "uninformed" crew can see just how wrong these individual preachers are... which is also called a "personal attack"... and yet these conversations have been "ineffective at causing harm to an individuals reputation or ministry..." which means they haven't succeeded at their intended goal of turning people from them. So what does that make conversations such as this? Mere idle speech? Gossip?quote:
We get it. You think it is wrong to name names and you keep saying this conversation "bores" you and yet you keep coming back to post. I respect every human being's dignity, that does not mean their false teaching that carry eternal and physical consequences are to be ignored and no, I will not do so without naming names.
It is absolutely absurd to say a Christian cannot name the name of a public individual whose teachings and platform are public and broadcast for maximum exposure. It is a disservice to those that need to be informed and warned. And it is an affront to the numerous examples left for us by God in His Word.
You will not change that fact of what I and others do and will continue to do until the day the Lord stops us.
**sigh** And thus we see the overall use of discussing any kind of doctrine at all. Those with opinions will refuse to change them regardless of whatever is said. And why? Because all of us believe that our points of view are the direct "command of God". It comes to a point that someone ends debate entirely, and we all go our seperate ways believing that each other is decieved and following the doctrine of demons... which means the body has drifted farther apart rather than come together. And then to top it all off, we wonder why there are more than 10,000 different denominations of "protestants".quote:
Another thought about this: Moral failings, character problems--the lack of godly spiritual fruit--these go hand-in-hand with false teachings. Just a glance at Price's website would indicate at a minimum an elevated ego and a grabbing greed.
It's one thing to argue a point that tries to turn the fault on the critics and another thing to look at what is being defended and determine if it's really defensible.
The _myth_ of the "good" false prophet is just that. I find that individual people are worth vehemently defending... a kind of feeling that I do not share for doctrine. Why? Because Jesus did the same thing for the woman caught in adultery. So my call will be the same... You who are without sin, throw the first stone.
I have not defended Price's doctrine, because, as I said earlier, I disagree with him on many points. What I have defended is a man who is deserving of respect as an elder. Were I in a conversation with him, I would say the same thing... I have respect for what you are trying to do and for your office... but I respectfully disagree with your doctrine.
Civil disagreement truly is a lost art, it seems...
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/9/2008 9:05:44 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6269
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
Adam,
Why does it sadden you when I say that my mind cannot be changed about certain things? You do know I am talking about core essentials, correct?
In other words, when a WoF'er says that God is a Trinity of 9 separate beings.. I am absolutely certain that they are absolutely wrong in light of Scripture.
When a WoF'er says that God wants nothing to do with a physically or mentally handicapped human being.. I am absolutely certain that they are wrong in light of Scripture.
When a WoF'er says that God needs permission to do anything on earth.. I am absolutely certain that they are wrong in light of Scripture.
When a WoF'er says that Jesus not atone for sin on the cross.. I am absolutely certain that they are wrong in light of Scripture.
When A WoF'er says that we can create our own reality and force things to happen.. I am absolutely certain that they are wrong in light of Scripture.
When a WoF'er says that we need a "holy ghost enema".. I am absolutely certain that they are wrong in light of Scripture.
When a WoF'er says that we need to focus on Emma-O and not Jesus.. I am absolutely certain that they are wrong in light of Scripture.
When a WoF'er says that they are a Prophet and yet have spoken failed prophecies.. I am absolutely certain that they are wrong in light of Scripture.
When a WoF'er says that Jesus will literally physically appear on stage with them tomorrow night.. I am absolutely certain that they are wrong in light of Scripture.
When a WoF'er says that anyone could have done what Jesus did had they had enough RHEMA (revelation knowledge).. I am absolutely certain that they are wrong in light of Scripture.
When a WoF'er says that Adam would fly to the moon and through space.. I am absolutely certain that they are wrong in light of Scripture.
I could go on and on and on.. but Adam, we already know you're cool just being Switzerland. Keep being Switzerland, brother. Others of us will fight the fight on your behalf, even when we have to deal with your detraction's as well.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/9/2008 6:34:35 PM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1879
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
I would say the discussions have been completely ineffective at causing harm to an individual's reputation or ministry---such as those may be.
The value of the discussions is so that the uninformed may have a chance to choose to NOT believe what is otherwise being pumped through the "one-way" medium of television and other one-way media. Okay............ so you just admitted that these threads do nothing.
Nothing to cause the harm to these individuals which seems to be your objection. Nobody has gone out of business for having their doctrine examined. That happens when they finally cross a line that causes the ether to wear off of their followers.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
"The value of the discussion is so that the uninformed may have a chance to choose to not believe is otherwise being pumped through the one-way medium of television..." So we are having these conversations so that the nebulous "uninformed" crew can see just how wrong these individual preachers are... which is also called a "personal attack"...
If we must view it as such, it is a rightful such "attack". Some NT examples have been given. The one I always think of is Nehemiah:
"I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair. I made them take an oath in God's name...." (Nehemiah 13:25, NIV)
A fairly personal rebuke I would say.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
and yet these conversations have been "ineffective at causing harm to an individuals reputation or ministry..." which means they haven't succeeded at their intended goal of turning people from them.
Not at all. It means it hasn't put them out of business yet. Nevertheless, even if none of their followers repent, they should still be warned. It's part of the package of contending for the Gospel.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I find that individual people are worth vehemently defending... a kind of feeling that I do not share for doctrine. Why? Because Jesus did the same thing for the woman caught in adultery. So my call will be the same... You who are without sin, throw the first stone.
A wrong example--an unrepentant peddler of a money gospel would not be analogous here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I have not defended Price's doctrine, because, as I said earlier, I disagree with him on many points.
Very commendable.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
What I have defended is a man who is deserving of respect as an elder. Were I in a conversation with him, I would say the same thing...
Were I in conversation with him or anyone else I disagree with, I would say the same things I say as well; but you really lose me on the "respect as an elder". I do not see an elder but a long-lasting (too long!) WoF flavor with which I would follow this Scripture:
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
(Revelation 3:16)
Long-lasting but not in any way refreshing to the soul. "apostle"  "library in his honor" "Beverly Hills fundraiser"
I don't see how a rebuke with a pretty pink ribbon around it gets the job done.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/10/2008 4:15:27 AM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 939
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
Why does it sadden you when I say that my mind cannot be changed about certain things? You do know I am talking about core essentials, correct? It seems the definition of "core essentials" is a very flexible thing... Basically, anything we want to disagree with, we can very easily make "core essentials" if we want to.
Person (A) disagrees with person (B) on some kind of doctrine.
Person (A) presents what seems (to him) to be a very logical defense leaving one (seemingly) obvious answer.
Person (B) continues to disagree for whatever reason.
Person (A) is convinced that Person (B) is a heretic because (according to them) Person (B) refuses to acknowledge the supremacy of scripture. Now we are talking about "core essentials" because Person (B) doesn't believe the Bible when it says "XYZ".
I could debate every single point you placed up... but (A) I know you wouldn't listen to a thing I said about it, (B) it seems that I have already been pigeonholed in this discussion as a "WoF lover", and (C) it's just getting exasperating to keep repeating myself.
So rather than debate every point you placed, I'm going to quote a conservative Ph. D. of Missiology by the name of Timothy Tennent...quote:
If doctrinal purity were the sole key to spiritual vibrancy, then the church in Asia Minor- due to the wonderful additions of the Chalcedonian and Constantinople councils- should have also spawned a vibrant church. However, the people became spiritually moribund and collapsed in the face of those heralding the message of Islam. Next........quote:
I could go on and on and on.. but Adam, we already know you're cool just being Switzerland. Keep being Switzerland, brother. Others of us will fight the fight on your behalf, even when we have to deal with your detraction's as well.
(A) The Switzerland remark was made in a (different) discussion involving something of which I had no prior knowledge, and as such has no bearing on our current discussion. You are really grasping at straws to make me feel an inch tall... and it isn't working.
(B) You're fighting a fight with flesh and blood... and that isn't a fight any of us are called to.
(C) Oh no! Not the............ GUILT TRIP! Guess what! **failing to feel guilty** That doesn't work either.
quote:
If we must view it as such, it is a rightful such "attack". Some NT examples have been given. The one I always think of is Nehemiah:
"I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair. I made them take an oath in God's name...." (Nehemiah 13:25, NIV)
A fairly personal rebuke I would say.
Are you saying that you or earthless are prophets of Jeremiah's caliber? Has God specifically called you to bring down the false prophets that are leading people into paganism like He did to Jeremiah? God showed up to Jeremiah personally and told him to go to the people of Israel and prophesy against them and against their false prophets. There were other prophets in the Bible that are contemporaries of Jeremiah, but Jeremiah is the only one who is given to the above show of righteous indignation. Jeremiah's calling is not universal. Once again, we see the flexibility of the Old Testament in evangelical doctrine. We can't prophesy in the church because it's only for the prophets... but yet we can use Jeremiah's rebuke of a false prophet to justify constant attacks against preachers and televangelists? Come on...quote:
A wrong example--an unrepentant peddler of a money gospel would not be analogous here. Show me this... where did the adulterous woman repent of her sins? She didn't. Jesus is presented with a legal question, gives the same answer I just did, and wrote in the sand. When everyone leaves, He asks her where her accusers are and tells her that he doesn't accuse her either... so go and sin no more. I find it very analagous.quote:
I do not see an elder but a long-lasting (too long!) WoF flavor with which I would follow this Scripture:
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
(Revelation 3:16)
Long-lasting but not in any way refreshing to the soul. "apostle" "library in his honor" "Beverly Hills fundraiser"
I don't see how a rebuke with a pretty pink ribbon around it gets the job done. As I said, civil disagreement is a lost art. For once, I don't doubt that you would indeed say the very things you are saying now to anyone you disagree with... except me...
I will also point out the difference between disagreeing and rebuking. If this whole discussion is supposed to serve as some kind of a rebuke to Fred Price... wouldn't it make sense for the "rebuke-ee" to be present for it?
The very idea of framing it as a rebuke is a prideful positioning of self as a superior... which is a hierachical judgement that I would be very cautious indeed about making. Imagine if a foreign exchange student were to rebuke a teacher in front of the whole class... would that be right? Of course not! If your children were to rebuke you, would that be right? Of course not. Disagreement is one thing... rebuke is another entirely.
If thee be a pastor and a congregant were to begin teaching WoF doctrine in a Bible Study endorsed by your church, you would be fully within your right as a pastor to rebuke that congregant. If you as a fellow congregant in fellowship were to rebuke that person, it would not be a problem. If you were a congregant in a seperate church? Now we have issues.
Price is an elder... he is much older than myself, and has been a preacher much longer than I have been alive. So yes, I would be obligated to treat him with the basest of respect in a conversation.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/10/2008 10:35:20 PM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1879
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Are you saying that you or earthless are prophets of Jeremiah's caliber? Has God specifically called you to bring down the false prophets that are leading people into paganism like He did to Jeremiah? God showed up to Jeremiah personally and told him to go to the people of Israel and prophesy against them and against their false prophets. There were other prophets in the Bible that are contemporaries of Jeremiah, but Jeremiah is the only one who is given to the above show of righteous indignation. Jeremiah's calling is not universal. Once again, we see the flexibility of the Old Testament in evangelical doctrine. We can't prophesy in the church because it's only for the prophets... but yet we can use Jeremiah's rebuke of a false prophet to justify constant attacks against preachers and televangelists? Come on...
1. I realize that you're up late...but that was Nehemiah I referred to.
2. Is that a rhetorical question about God's specific calling?
3. Jeremiah didn't address TBN or the Elijah List, so I'm doing something different.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Show me this... where did the adulterous woman repent of her sins? She didn't. Jesus is presented with a legal question, gives the same answer I just did, and wrote in the sand. When everyone leaves, He asks her where her accusers are and tells her that he doesn't accuse her either... so go and sin no more. I find it very analagous.
In your analogy you are--like Jesus, forgiving? As opposed to--comparing doctrine of distorters of the gospel to the Bible is like being a rock-throwing accuser?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
As I said, civil disagreement is a lost art. For once, I don't doubt that you would indeed say the very things you are saying now to anyone you disagree with... except me...
???
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I will also point out the difference between disagreeing and rebuking. If this whole discussion is supposed to serve as some kind of a rebuke to Fred Price... wouldn't it make sense for the "rebuke-ee" to be present for it?
Tell Fred to come on down and maybe we'll see if Price is right.
Here on a discussion forum you're free to disagree with me (and you do). Price is welcome to join in.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The very idea of framing it as a rebuke is a prideful positioning of self as a superior... which is a hierachical judgement that I would be very cautious indeed about making. Imagine if a foreign exchange student were to rebuke a teacher in front of the whole class... would that be right? Of course not! If your children were to rebuke you, would that be right? Of course not. Disagreement is one thing... rebuke is another entirely.
Why don't we put the labels where they belong..."pride" and "superiority" belong to those who claim to hear God better than us untitled sheep, and to those whose doctrine--false doctrine--comes off as superior to the truth of the Gospel.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
If thee be a pastor and a congregant were to begin teaching WoF doctrine in a Bible Study endorsed by your church, you would be fully within your right as a pastor to rebuke that congregant. If you as a fellow congregant in fellowship were to rebuke that person, it would not be a problem. If you were a congregant in a seperate church? Now we have issues.
Price is an elder... he is much older than myself, and has been a preacher much longer than I have been alive. So yes, I would be obligated to treat him with the basest of respect in a conversation.
Adam
But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
(Revelation 2:6)
From John Wesley's notes: Their doctrines and lives were equally corrupt. They allowed the most abominable lewdness and adulteries, as well as sacrificing to idols; all which they placed among things indifferent, and pleaded for as branches of Christian liberty.
Does Christ hate false doctrine and indifference about its interspersion with true Christianity? Does He commend those who also hate it?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/11/2008 6:21:08 AM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 939
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
1. I realize that you're up late...but that was Nehemiah I referred to.
2. Is that a rhetorical question about God's specific calling?
3. Jeremiah didn't address TBN or the Elijah List, so I'm doing something different.
1. And why was Nehemiah so angry with those people? Because (A) He was in charge of rebuilding Jerusalem and (B) the people were beginning to sin in the ways that led to the captivity. Look at verse 26 for why Nehemiah reacted as he did. The King of Persia placed Nehemiah in charge of rebuilding the city... basically made him governor. So it would seem that he was within his rights as the man IN CHARGE.
2. Not at all. God specifically called Jeremiah, sovereignly placed Nehemiah in authority of the city, and called Israel to repentence via the prophets He also called.
3. If you believe that the TBN or Elijah List people are actually false prophets attempting to lead the church astray through the doctrine of demons, then you are doing the exact same thing as Jeremiah.quote:
In your analogy you are--like Jesus, forgiving? As opposed to--comparing doctrine of distorters of the gospel to the Bible is like being a rock-throwing accuser? No. What I am making an analogy of is the neo-deconstructivistic analyzing of specific ministers. Compare doctrine to the Bible all day... as I have said at least four times on this page.
I am not condemning individuals. I will argue doctrine all day (hence this discussion hasn't died), but I will not attack the character or ministry of those who purport said doctrines. The time for a rebuke is when you are speaking to the person you feel is in the wrong. Otherwise you are pontificating into thin air and are accomplishing nothing more than exhaling. I believe that both you and earthless are very sincere... I also think you are sincerely wrong.quote:
Tell Fred to come on down and maybe we'll see if Price is right.
Here on a discussion forum you're free to disagree with me (and you do). Price is welcome to join in. Isn't it kind of prideful to expect someone to willingly come submit themselves to our "all-righteous" judgement? Considering that Price is a very busy man (what with a church pastor and an outside ministry to run), it is pure naivete for this comment to be made in anything but pure jest.
If I am an internationally known minister and author, the last thing on my mind would be trolling the internet looking for hostile discussions about me.quote:
Why don't we put the labels where they belong..."pride" and "superiority" belong to those who claim to hear God better than us untitled sheep, and to those whose doctrine--false doctrine--comes off as superior to the truth of the Gospel. So all of this comes down to a jealousy of not being called as a prophet or apostle? I don't think Price is an apostle... his business card may say it, but the man is not an apostle. I have known several people with incredibly vibrant prophetic giftings... none of them claimed that other Christians were some kind of bourgoise "barely saved" person because those Christians don't hear God like the person with the gifting. Also, it is a small minority of people who call themselves "prophets" that claim that their word is superior to the Bible. This is a show of an obvious bias.quote:
But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
(Revelation 2:6)
From John Wesley's notes: Their doctrines and lives were equally corrupt. They allowed the most abominable lewdness and adulteries, as well as sacrificing to idols; all which they placed among things indifferent, and pleaded for as branches of Christian liberty.
Does Christ hate false doctrine and indifference about its interspersion with true Christianity? Does He commend those who also hate it? Once again, we see the equivocation of WoF Christians with pagans and heretics... without actually going so far as to say it. So unless you are willing to call WoF'ers "hell bound Nicolations", your diatribe doesn't make sense.
As for your implications about me, I am not indifferent about doctrine... Exhibit (A), this conversation has lasted three pages now. I am not indifferent about preachers either. I also happen to know my place in the world. My place happens to be working on my relationship with God, and not making guesses about the state of someone else's. There is a profound difference between examining doctrine and examining people. I'll say it again....
Discuss doctrine all day... leave the mud-slinging and name-calling out of it.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/11/2008 8:04:16 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6269
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
Adam,
You seem to differ on your own stance... on the one hand you're saying that no Christian can or should name names unless he or she is in a power position over said individual.
On the other hand.. you're saying that doctrine can and should be discussed all day but not the state of salvation of a certain individual.
So my question/point is... where have I ever called someone's salvation into question? Only God knows a person's heart, a person's state of salvation or not.
Considering I do discuss doctrine, I do name names, but that I do not judge a person's salvation... is your only problem with me being that I name the names of those who are public figures?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/11/2008 9:07:40 AM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
Just a quick interjection: earlier it was said that these forums do not affect anyone's beliefs one way or another, and I must take exception with this position. I know that these forums affect others. That is, in fact, one of the reasons they exist. They offer debate and discussion, and if the information provided is tested against scripture, some people will grow in their walk with Christ. Since that is true, it behooves the Church to provide the truth to those who are actively seeking Him. We are obliged to point out incorrect doctrine provided by people like Fred Price.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/11/2008 10:57:50 AM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1879
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
So all of this comes down to a jealousy of not being called as a prophet or apostle?
Ha Ha Ha! LOL! Seriously.............No.
"Hey I see a wolf! Wolf! Wolf!"
"Just a minute...you're no shepherd! How dare you call that wolf a wolf! As you were, sheep. We'll wait on a qualified opinion from a duly-authorized card-carrying shepherd. Just imagine, a mere sheep thinking he can identify a wolf! The nerve!!"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/11/2008 1:26:43 PM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1879
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
Naming names?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I like Patricia King...... I had the priviledge of hearing her speak a couple of times, and her vision is inspiring to say the least. I'm not a fan of some of her peers (IE, Kim Clement... if he actually has a gifting, he is extremely immature in it),
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
........................ And your point was? The prophets were prophesying blessing, prosperity, and safety, when the actual word of Lord through the actual Prophet was "repent, judgement is near." So now you have guys like Kim Clement prophesying blessing, peace, and safety...
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Once again, that is a hefty charge. You need to prove that (A) the "prophetic element" is manipulation as opposed to an honest belief of having heard God and (B) that it is based on the "flavor of the day"... which would be especially hard since you have guys like Kim Clement saying that there is great blessing coming upon the church in America. The only way for both to be wrong is if God is detached from our current circumstances and will do nothing good or bad to the church in America.
ETA: We should not name Fred Price but the one objecting has named Kim Clement? The alleged priniciple would seem to be applied selectively.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/11/2008 2:08:03 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6269
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
Very interesting, Wintery. Maybe Adam holds a position of power over Kim Clement... so that allows him to name his name?
I never knew there were levels of Christians - meaning that some lowly (regular) Christians could never name the names of those "higher" than them in position. Even when said position was given to themselves by themselves or other dubious sources.
Who knew?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/12/2008 4:44:40 AM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 939
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
You seem to differ on your own stance... on the one hand you're saying that no Christian can or should name names unless he or she is in a power position over said individual.
On the other hand.. you're saying that doctrine can and should be discussed all day but not the state of salvation of a certain individual.
So my question/point is... where have I ever called someone's salvation into question? Only God knows a person's heart, a person's state of salvation or not.
Considering I do discuss doctrine, I do name names, but that I do not judge a person's salvation... is your only problem with me being that I name the names of those who are public figures? If you are calling someone a heretic, yes, you are calling their salvation into question. Heresy is of the stripe that you no longer are a Christian but a full on cult.
My problem is not the discussion of doctrine. My problem is that the slant of the "doctrinal discussions" are geared towards examination of an individual rather than a doctrine. For example, the title of this thread is not about the state of the Apostleship, but about Fred Price. There are countless numbers of discussions that have the exact same problem. We are not discussing doctrine, but individuals. Eventually we get around to doctrine, but it takes a couple of posts to get past the "everybody knows this person is a heretic!" type responses.quote:
Ha Ha Ha! LOL! Seriously.............No.
"Hey I see a wolf! Wolf! Wolf!"
"Just a minute...you're no shepherd! How dare you call that wolf a wolf! As you were, sheep. We'll wait on a qualified opinion from a duly-authorized card-carrying shepherd. Just imagine, a mere sheep thinking he can identify a wolf! The nerve!!" I have said nothing about "duly-authorized card-carrying" anything. Remembering that JESUS is the shepherd, yes, I am more willing to trust Him than another sheep. I've spent a lot of time around sheep. They are very skittish, not very bright, and tend to wander around aimlessly until the herders get them going somewhere...... sounds like a very appropriate analogy to Christians (said the Christian to those no longer listening).
I honestly believe that the only legitimate reason there is for believing that the Apostleship has ceased to be is because Pastors chafe at the idea of being under someone else's leadership.quote:
Naming names?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I like Patricia King...... I had the priviledge of hearing her speak a couple of times, and her vision is inspiring to say the least. I'm not a fan of some of her peers (IE, Kim Clement... if he actually has a gifting, he is extremely immature in it),
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
........................ And your point was? The prophets were prophesying blessing, prosperity, and safety, when the actual word of Lord through the actual Prophet was "repent, judgement is near." So now you have guys like Kim Clement prophesying blessing, peace, and safety...
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Once again, that is a hefty charge. You need to prove that (A) the "prophetic element" is manipulation as opposed to an honest belief of having heard God and (B) that it is based on the "flavor of the day"... which would be especially hard since you have guys like Kim Clement saying that there is great blessing coming upon the church in America. The only way for both to be wrong is if God is detached from our current circumstances and will do nothing good or bad to the church in America.
ETA: We should not name Fred Price but the one objecting has named Kim Clement? The alleged priniciple would seem to be applied selectively. ... remembering that those comments were made several months ago. Notice also that I referrenced Kim Clement as an element of the discussion, and not as the focus of my entire argument. Compare that to this discussion of Fred Price that is aimed at spotlighting Fred Price and only Fred Price.
As for the first comment quoted in the list (which I have a recollection of writing that is vague at best), I will say the same as Luther. "This group of my writ | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
