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SpongeBlog -> RE: Replacement theology (7/29/2008 10:25:58 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
From Rom 11 we see that Israel is NOT the church:
Rom 11:1 So I ask, "God has not rejected his people, has he?" Of course not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham from the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2a God has not rejected his people whom he chose long ago.
If you mean there is a difference between natural, unregenerate Jews and Spirit-sealed believers I'd agree with you. But once a Jew gets saved does he not now become a part of God's family, God's nation, God's people, Jesus's Body, God's Church (called out ones)--the same congregation the Gentiles became a part of when they believed? It seems Paul plainly tells us there is no distinction whatsoever before God between me and a Jew who is also saved. Other than he's still Jewish as far as the flesh goes, and I'm still WASP.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
To make it clear that he is NOT speaking of the church Paul says this:
Rom 11:11 And so I ask, "They have not stumbled so as to fall, have they?" Of course not! On the contrary, because of their stumbling, salvation has come to the gentiles to make the Jews jealous.
Rom 11:12 Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their fall means riches for the gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
I see fleshly distinction here, not spiritual.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
and
Rom 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake, but as far as election is concerned, they are loved because of their ancestors.
Again, I see natural distinction, not spiritual.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Who is he writing to?
Rom 11:13 I am speaking to you gentiles. Because I am an apostle to the gentiles, I am glorifying my ministry.
So clearly Paul has established that there is a distinction between Jew and Gentile, and between Israel and the church.
But only in the flesh--natural lineage. He has elsewhere firmly established the non-distinction between us spiritually. And differences as far as Israel and the church, he seems to speak generally in the context of the natural, unsaved nation of natural Jews, not born-again Jews.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
So what about us gentiles? Where do we fit in?
Rom 11:17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 That's right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid!
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness toward you-if you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 If the Jews do not persist in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, because God is able to graft them in.
Rom 11:24 After all, if you were cut off from what is naturally a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier it will be for these natural branches to be grafted back into their own olive tree!
I guess the question is, "what", or "Who" is the root? One camp says, the nation composed of Israel's people. Another camp says, God Himself. To stay in tune with Paul's teaching about the 'one new man'--a man composed from two formerly different and distinct men but who are now one new man--and to stay within the boundaries of the grafting analogy, I believe the Root is God from whom the life sap comes. But if you understand 'root' as being the system through which Jews have related to God, and the nation itself, then you see the root as being Israel.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
The branch retains its native fruit but if the root stock is good may produce more and better fruit. You can have an apple tree that grows different types of apples on the same tree. One branch will grow Delicious, one Macintosh, another Jonathan, etc. We have been grafted into that tree that goes back thru the Jewish people with Moses and Abraham, and back further all the way to Adam. Are we Jews? No, but we have been grafted into their stock. From the apostle's imagery here the Jewish people grow natively on that stock and are "broken off" due to unbelief. (v17) Broken, not cut. The gentiles are cut from their tree meaning they can be grafted in anywhere. A branch that is broken off can only be grafted back into the place it was broken from.
The imagery is very powerful, indeed. But is it possible or customary to graft another branch into another branch, or must it be grafted into the trunk? I think the illustration is that both kinds of branches are grafted into the same trunk, fed by the same life giving root system--God Himself. Some branches are native to that trunk, having originally been a part of that trunk/ root through the old covenant, but now broken off because of unbelief. We Gentiles were never a part of the trunk/ root to begin with, yet by believing are grafted into the trunk alongside the remaining natural branches and also bear the fruit of the life giving sap that comes from the root just as the natural branches that remain do.
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