John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (Full Version)

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Denker -> John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/29/2008 11:22:46 AM)

Is the work known as the “Gospel of John” to be regarded as a contemporary factual account describing the life of Jesus of Nazareth or rather a late 1st century theological composition, specifically a sophisticated Hellenistic Christian aretalogy?

The underlying sources for the basic ideas comprising the author’s theological position are rooted in Hellenistic Judaism and in particular the religious concepts developed in the writings of Philo of Alexandria.
The gospel of John was probably composed around the year 100, possibly at Ephesus in the Roman province of Asia.

The work is consistently and virulently anti-Jewish, and depicts an enigmatic and hostile Jesus who vociferously criticizes the ‘Jews’ for not recognizing that their own scriptures have the function of testifying to him. (5.39) The ‘Jews’ are also blamed elsewhere for refusing to recognize Jesus despite the signs (σημεια) and wonders (τερατα) testifying to his abilities and status. (12.37, 15.24) Such preternatural goetic motifs are consistent and typical features within aretalogical writings.

John also has to explain to his readers that ‘Messiah’ means ‘Christ’ (1.41) and that Jews do not associate with Samaritans. (4.9) Clearly, this work was not written for any Jewish community, as Jesus himself is depicted as being totally dissociated from his own Jewish background, talking to the ‘Jews’ about "your law" (8.17).

It would seem that John belonged to some school of religious thought on the margins of Christian theology. He appears to have leaned towards Gnosticism, but also drew on other ideas intelligible to Hellenistic/Roman society. His work employs much deliberate interpretation and is far more theologically sophisticated than the synoptic gospels. It is also very different in style from them, and even more self-consciously arranged. It has no birth or infancy narratives, but starts with John the baptiser.

This figure is not depicted as a realistic or independent historical character (as in the Synoptics), but as being utterly subordinated to Jesus and defining himself purely in terms of being a witness to Jesus as the ‘Christ.’

Despite the adroit creativity, the enhanced theology, and all the sophistication of its structure, John's message is extremely simplistic. He is only concerned with ‘faith’ [πιστις - more accurately rendered as trust or allegiance] in Jesus. There is not even any ethical teaching worth speaking of in this entire work.

In Mark’s Gospel story where the rich young man asks Jesus what to do to inherit eternal life, and Jesus tells him firstly to keep the commandments and then to give everything he has to the poor (Mark 10.17-22), should be closely compared with this passage from John:

Then they said to him, 'What must we do if we are to do the works that God wants?' Jesus gave them this answer, 'this is working for God: you must believe in the one he has sent'. (6.28-29)

John regards Jesus as the "Word" (λογος) of god, pre-existent since the beginning of creation, and sent to earth in human form. However he is still subordinated to God: "the father is greater than I" (14.28).

The word of God in Judaism was the expression of the divine will, "By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made" (Ps. 33.6).

Λογος in contemporary Hellenistic thought represented something comparable to the order and meaning of creation.

This concept was ultimately derived from the philosophical system of Heraclitus of Ephesus (c. 500 BCE) and in its original Greek context, λογος encompassed a much broader sense of meanings than the rather pallid rendition, “word.” Statement, principle, law, reason, or proportion, are more precise renditions.

The term signified the cosmic principle that gives order and rationality to the world in a way analogous to that in which human reason orders human action. In Plato and Aristotle a similar function is performed by νους.

The Jesus of John narrates no parables and is virtually separated from the more familiar sayings of wisdom and any ideas of repentance or the coming kingdom of God.

In marked contrast to the Jesus, of the synoptics, this character delivers lengthy, artificial, mystical speeches, about himself and the relationship between him and his [often uncomprehending] followers, and their relationship with God and with each other in their mutual faith.

This Jesus character is always in total control. He is presented as being completely aware, in advance, of any evidence or details about other people: their character or personal history, their situation or subsequent intentions.

(John 1:47, 2:24-25, 4:16-20, 5:6, 6:6, 6:64, 16:30 q.v.)

No doubt this control and awareness theme was an intentional literary device meant to convey the idea of divine power and knowledge. John's Jesus figure may be majestic, but he is also remote rather stilted and somewhat inhuman.

John makes it clear that his Jesus is above and beyond all the mundane concerns of current Jewish political or nationalist ideas. Just like the crowd who, after the miracle of the loaves, wanted to "come and take him by force and make him king" (6.15), the incumbent Roman governor of Judaea Pontius Pilatus also misunderstands his supposed kingship as being earthly and political, but Jesus immediately informs him that, “My kingdom is not of this world” (18.36).

This declaration is totally at variance with any known contemporary Jewish concepts of messianic sovereignty.

The gospel is obviously the result of the reflections and beliefs of John and his community, rather than any deliberate attempt to improve or enhance the historical record. Unfortunately It has the effect of leading to a presentation of a self-obsessed Jesus instead of the man who inspired people to love and follow him.

This Jesus proclaims himself, instead of the nature and demands of the kingdom of God. Instead of challenging his listeners to confront themselves, his message is that you surrender to a belief in him. From this, everything else will follow.

The "I am" sayings, supposedly of Jesus, are a characteristic feature of this gospel writer.

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me.'" (14.6)

This makes the author’s opinion of orthodox belief quite clear. The only way to a relationship with God is through absolute and unquestioning allegiance to Jesus and his mystical pronouncements.

Many of the other "I am" sayings are followed by promises of rewards to the believer in return for this faith.

"I am the gate" (10.9, promising safety).

"I am the resurrection [and the life]" (11.25, promising eternal life).

"Eternal life" itself is defined at 17.3 as knowledge of God and of Jesus.

At 8.12, Jesus is depicted as saying "I am the light of the world."

The promise which follows being,

"he who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

This dualistic, symbolic interaction between darkness and light was a significant feature of Hellenistic Judaism, is to be found in certain writings of the Qumran community, and was later diffused into the various, complex religious systems commonly defined as Gnosticism.

In conclusion, John's Gospel is obviously a work of great religious significance and was a major influence in the development of all subsequent Christian theology. However, its intensely idiosyncratic portrait of Jesus as a semi-remote cosmic entity is not really very attractive or appealing.

The ascetic, peripatetic teacher who healed the sick and delivered the possessed, instead of berating and condemning the Jews, who were in fact his own nation.

The Jewish prophet who expected people to worship not himself, but God alone.

The Galilean preacher who challenged his people to confront the mirror of their own souls and to find endless reserves of love and forgiveness even amidst poverty and social oppression.

These would all appear to present a far more realistic and credible depiction of the actual Jewish personage, known to history as Jesus of Nazareth.









MrFribbles -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/29/2008 12:09:16 PM)

quote:

Is the work known as the “Gospel of John” to be regarded as a contemporary factual account describing the life of Jesus of Nazareth or rather a late 1st century theological composition, specifically a sophisticated Hellenistic Christian aretalogy?


Neither. History wasn't recorded and reported in the CNN-style we have today. Given the oral tradition that was still very much at large in the 1st century culture, the stories, though factually accurate, were recorded differently.

quote:

The gospel of John was probably composed around the year 100, possibly at Ephesus in the Roman province of Asia.


If it has such a late date of writing, why is no mention made of the destruction of the temple at 70 AD?

quote:

John also has to explain to his readers that ‘Messiah’ means ‘Christ’ (1.41) and that Jews do not associate with Samaritans. (4.9) Clearly, this work was not written for any Jewish community


It would make sense for John to write with the possibility of gentile readership in mind, given the spread of Christianity to the gentile population as described in Acts.

quote:

It would seem that John belonged to some school of religious thought on the margins of Christian theology. He appears to have leaned towards Gnosticism, but also drew on other ideas intelligible to Hellenistic/Roman society.


It seems unlikely that John has any leanings towards gnosticism, since the epistle of 1 John is an attack against proto-gnostic teachers in the early Church.

quote:

In marked contrast to the Jesus, of the synoptics, this character delivers lengthy, artificial, mystical speeches, about himself and the relationship between him and his [often uncomprehending] followers, and their relationship with God and with each other in their mutual faith.

This Jesus character is always in total control. He is presented as being completely aware, in advance, of any evidence or details about other people: their character or personal history, their situation or subsequent intentions.


Each gospel was written for a different purpose. John is certainly most distinct out of the four, but it would make sense for someone with a different point of view to write different facts. I don't think that different, non-contradictory events is any sort of evidence for John not being actual history.

quote:

but he is also remote rather stilted and somewhat inhuman.


I don't know, I find a thirty Jesus, a Jesus who weeps at His friend's death (despite knowing He can bring him back to life), fairly human.

quote:

The gospel is obviously the result of the reflections and beliefs of John and his community, rather than any deliberate attempt to improve or enhance the historical record.


Personally, as you may have guessed, I don't think it is obvious at all.

quote:

Unfortunately It has the effect of leading to a presentation of a self-obsessed Jesus instead of the man who inspired people to love and follow him.

This Jesus proclaims himself, instead of the nature and demands of the kingdom of God. Instead of challenging his listeners to confront themselves, his message is that you surrender to a belief in him. From this, everything else will follow.


That is because one cannot enter into His kingdom without surrendering to Him. As I said above, John is teaching on a different aspect of who Christ is and what He taught. Different does not equal false.

quote:

The Jewish prophet who expected people to worship not himself, but God alone.


Well, since He is also God alone, I don't really see a problem here. ; )

Thanks for your thoughts, Denker. Obviously, you put considerable time into this post. I was starting to worry that you weren't going to return. I'm glad to see you did!




Denker -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/29/2008 12:26:11 PM)

I will respond to these points later on, but please excuse me for a few days - family matters must currently take precedence!

Denker.




URForgiven -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/29/2008 2:17:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denker

Is the work known as the “Gospel of John” to be regarded as a contemporary factual account describing the life of Jesus of Nazareth or rather a late 1st century theological composition, specifically a sophisticated Hellenistic Christian aretalogy?



Neither, it is be regarded as what it is...The Word of God...

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21

If your premise is off then everything that comes after will be off.

Peace




MrFribbles -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/29/2008 11:28:52 PM)

URForgiven,
quote:

Neither, it is be regarded as what it is...The Word of God...


Scripture is not in a genre-less vacuum. If you take it that way, you will come to some faulty interpretations!


Denker,
quote:

I will respond to these points later on, but please excuse me for a few days - family matters must currently take precedence!


Entirely understandable! Family matters must always take precedent over online forums.




rcjones -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/29/2008 11:38:20 PM)

Thanks for this post.
I appreciate the observations that you have made. I am having to adjust my frame of reference to consider yours, so it may take a bit to ponder this properly.

My starting point is that John is the Testimony of the Holy Spirit (as opposed to the Father or the Son) and is in the voice of the prophet* (as opposed to the priest - Matthew, judge - Mark, king - Luke). I don't know for sure about the frame I start at, but we'll see where the two meet or cross.

Your initial question is one of those false dilemmas since the answer may be something quite different from either, so I am not so much interested in that as your observations.

Is it really anti-Jewish or is it a way to introduce gentile believers into OT symbolism which would be more empathetic to the gentile perspective than the Jewish?

Jesus cleans the temple and then ministers in Sychar, heals a nobleman's son and makes a man walk at Bethsaida. So I understand the appearance of being anti-Jewish, But the context is that he was rejected by his own SO THAT gentiles could be included. I am not sure that the gentile would have seen it as anti-Jewish but more as divine serendipity for them. After all, the historical context is that the church was initially Jewish. They only rejected him until after the resurrection, then they flocked to Him. So it is difficult to ignore that to propose anti-Jewishness.

I think your post will give me much to ponder since I haven't made it past the third paragraph.

* Genesis 1, John and Revelation being tightly coupled. There should be a book from the Prophets, but I haven't identified it yet.




URForgiven -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/29/2008 11:50:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

URForgiven,
quote:

Neither, it is be regarded as what it is...The Word of God...


Scripture is not in a genre-less vacuum. If you take it that way, you will come to some faulty interpretations!



I do not rely on interpretation. I rely on the Holy Spirit. Remember Him? Or have you forgotten who you began with?

Peace




MrFribbles -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/30/2008 12:01:48 AM)

quote:

I do not rely on interpretation. I rely on the Holy Spirit. Remember Him? Or have you forgotten who you began with?


Easy, friend. Who says interpretation is removed from the Holy Spirit?




rcjones -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/30/2008 12:32:49 AM)

quote:

It would seem that John belonged to some school of religious thought on the margins of Christian theology. He appears to have leaned towards Gnosticism, but also drew on other ideas intelligible to Hellenistic/Roman society. His work employs much deliberate interpretation and is far more theologically sophisticated than the synoptic gospels. It is also very different in style from them, and even more self-consciously arranged. It has no birth or infancy narratives, but starts with John the baptiser.


An alternate view might be that the Gnostics attempted to mimic Johns fluent use of shadows without understanding and made a garbled mess of it with free-for-all allegory. How would one determine who influenced whom. I would think that his epistles would indicate that it was the Gnostics who followed and were doing it wrong.

If John is as tightly coupled to Genesis and Revelation as I hypothesize, it would explain the intentional 'self-conscious' arrangement. Starting with John is consistent with the voice of the prophet since it is proposed that the testimony of John and the disciples were the hearing and seeing of Jesus as he realized He was God and began to walk with the Father at the wedding in Cana. Events leading to the moment of his confidence in his divinity are more significant to the gentile mind coming from a background of mythology that taught gods often took human form, than fulfilling Jewish legal and inheritance laws. Additionally, for a talented Jewish theologian to write a cross-cultural piece for gentiles might also explain the deliberate arrangement, which might take a different form had he written intentionally to Jews.




Row1 -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/30/2008 8:55:09 AM)

quote:

The work is consistently and virulently anti-Jewish, and depicts an enigmatic and hostile Jesus who vociferously criticizes the ‘Jews’ for not recognizing that their own scriptures have the function of testifying to him.


I didn't pay much attention after this part, in the beginning of your post.

But from this bit, it seems that you have gotten interested in somebody's views that John is not really about the real God, but is just another man-made story about some divine characters dreamed up by humans. Part of this argument depends on the idea that Jesus is 'enigmatic and hostile.'

Denker: to explore this topic better, it might help to read the Bible through entirely.

What occurred to me is that throughout the Bible, this theme or tone can be found. This is the type of admonition that Moses conveys from God to his people. Why should it be un-deifying if Jesus also has the same tone, at times, for His people?

Much of the OT has a similar theme, portraying the way that the chosen people have not held up their end of the covenant agreement that God made with these chosen people. This is largely the criticizing theme or tone of many of the prophets.

In other words, rather than seeing John as 'virulently anti-Jewish,' I think it fits right in with the well-recognized tradition of the Jewish people: communicating God's information, direction, and concern.

Like I said, I think you will see this if you just start from the beginning, and read the Bible through.




rcjones -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (7/30/2008 5:53:35 PM)

quote:

John the baptiser.

This figure is not depicted as a realistic or independent historical character (as in the Synoptics), but as being utterly subordinated to Jesus and defining himself purely in terms of being a witness to Jesus as the ‘Christ.’


John tha baptiser as an independent figure fulfilled Jewish prophecy which is a lessor concern to the gentiles. If the main point is to prove his deity and point to faith in him to a gentile people, it is understandable why only John's witness is important. And it really wasn't John's withness, but the Father's witness through John.. Other men who claimed to be God (like the Caesars) made the claim for themselves. That John and the disciples would testify that he was the one is unique to those experience in Greek and Roman myth and King worship. That he should die on behalf of his people rather than enslave them is also distinctive.

quote:

Despite the adroit creativity, the enhanced theology, and all the sophistication of its structure, John's message is extremely simplistic. He is only concerned with ‘faith’ [πιστις - more accurately rendered as trust or allegiance] in Jesus. There is not even any ethical teaching worth speaking of in this entire work.


Which I think is perfectly consistent with the teachings of Jesus that if you love God and man that you have fulfilled all of the law, and that we can do that by trusting in him. It humbles theologians when they recognize that as fun as "pure doctrine" is, faith in Christ alone is sufficient.

When you have love for others, ethics are natural.




Denker -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/7/2008 6:59:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Neither. History wasn't recorded and reported in the CNN-style we have today. Given the oral tradition that was still very much at large in the 1st century culture, the stories, though factually accurate, were recorded differently.


The Author of the Gospel of John was a sophisticated writer employing a fluent Hellenistic style in the common Greek dialect of the 1st century eastern Roman Empire. Whether or not any sources of oral tradition were incorporated into the work is conjectural. In my opinion it makes more sense to regard it principally as a work of theology, an aretalogy rather than a history.

This is basically what constitutes an aretalogy; i.e. a spiritual [semi-fictitious] biography of a revered, possibly quasi-divine, teacher, intended as a means of conveying moral and religious instruction. (from Gk. Αρητη = virtue)

The root of our word ‘history’ is derived from the Greek verb ίστορεω meaning to inquire, question or learn by inquiry.

This is what all historians from Herodotus and Thucydides onwards have attempted to do. However, it is something that ‘John’ and the other Gospel writers most assuredly do not do. These persons allegedly ‘bear witness,’ an activity of an altogether different kind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribblesIf it has such a late date of writing, why is no mention made of the destruction of the temple at 70 AD?

Almost certainly because of the dangerous political situation prevailing for both Jews and Christians, in the late 1st century, especially in Asia. Domitian, the last ruler of the Flavian dynasty, was in power. His father Vespasian and older brother Titus had ruthlessly suppressed the first Jewish revolt (66-71 CE). Jerusalem, along with its temple and cult, had been destroyed. The Jewish national state was abolished and Judaea was now a praetorian province with a legionary garrison.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribblesIt would make sense for John to write with the possibility of gentile readership in mind, given the spread of Christianity to the gentile population as described in Acts.

Greek was also the vernacular language of many Hellenistic Jews, particularly in Egypt and other eastern provinces. Moreover, by the end of the 1st century the split between Judaism and the new cult of Christianity had already occurred.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribblesIt seems unlikely that John has any leanings towards gnosticism, since the epistle of 1 John is an attack against proto-gnostic teachers in the early Church.

Not the developed Gnostic systems of later periods but more precisely a proto Gnosticism evinced by the belief in cosmic dualism, complete subjugation to evil daimonic powers, and a heavenly redeemer descended to earth to effect human σωτηρια. Such concepts, along with belief in anthropomorphic deities, had no place within Judaism. Even in Philo the λογος is conceived as an intermediary creative and cognitive power not the deity itself. The problem is that once you diverge from the absolute monotheism of Judaism and begin imagining God in a human body [Hellenistic paganism] then speculation results in schism and divisive sectarianism for ever onward. The first epistle traditionally attributed to ‘John’ may be from the same hand or redactor as the Gospel of ‘John.’ The other two letters were admitted late in the evolution of the NT canon, [first fully defined in 367 CE by Athanasius] and are almost certainly from a later period and written by a different author(s)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribblesEach gospel was written for a different purpose. John is certainly most distinct out of the four, but it would make sense for someone with a different point of view to write different facts. I don't think that different, non-contradictory events is any sort of evidence for John not being actual history.

This is self evident. However there were many more than just four in circulation during the first three centuries of Christian history. Points of view are not at all the same thing as facts!
Once again I must stress that ‘history’ involves asking questions and assessing evidence, not just formulating didactic and kerygmatic stories for the edification of current and potential future adherents to a preconceived belief system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribblesI don't know, I find a thirty Jesus, a Jesus who weeps at His friend's death (despite knowing He can bring him back to life), fairly human.

Thaumaturgy [wonder working] was, as I have previously stated, a common feature of aretalogical compositions. It should be noted that the story of the raising of Lazarus is very much a theological and literary contrivance by the author of John’s Gospel. Why in this scenario is Jesus depicted as mourning for his deceased friend, when he could have quite easily avoided inflicting unnecessary emotional stress upon himself [and others] by curing Lazarus’ illness in the first place? Obviously the whole dramatic point of this narrative is to demonstrate Jesus’ preternatural power [δυναμις] and thus provide yet another ‘sign’ to promote belief in his quasi-divine status. Such motifs [apparent resurrections from tombs] are commonly to be encountered in Hellenistic/Roman narrative fiction as well as aretalogies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribblesPersonally, as you may have guessed, I don't think it is obvious at all.

I can only politely suggest that you re-read the text of John and carefully compare it with the structure, style and content of the Synoptics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribblesThat is because one cannot enter into His kingdom without surrendering to Him. As I said above, John is teaching on a different aspect of who Christ is and what He taught. Different does not equal false.


You are confusing and conflating later Christian theology with contemporary Palestinian Jewish concepts of unconditional monotheism and the messianic expectation. Jesus of Nazareth was a pious practicing Galilean Jewish teacher, not an incarnate god. Anthropomorphic deities had, and indeed still have no place in Judaism. The Torah forbids such idolatrous conceits.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribblesWell, since He is also God alone, I don't really see a problem here.


Problem or not, your statement is nothing more than the expression of a protracted sequence of theological dogma conceived and extensively developed by the Christian Church during the first four to five centuries of its existence.
Nowhere in the Gospels, nor indeed in the writings of Paul, will you find any such notion. It was not until 325 CE at Nicaea that the word όμοουσιος as opposed to όμοιουσιος became the accepted formulation of the relationship between Christ and God the Father. This was adopted and enforced by ecclesiastical authority reinforced by civil power as ‘accepted true belief.’ Jesus Christ Pantokrator and celestial Caesar now reigned supreme with the patronage and ostensible support of the earthly imperial House of Constantius. Dissenting Christians, adhering to alternative opinions, were anathematised and banished beyond the imperial frontiers.
Even in the esoteric Gospel of John the words ό θεος ειμι are never put into the mouth of Jesus.
The language where Jesus is depicted as describing his status and relationship with God is always equivocal or periphrastic. Insofar as any concept of “God alone” is concerned, Jesus is made to state at 14:28, quite categorically that, “The Father is greater than I.”

In Mark’s Gospel, the earliest and least theologically developed of the Synoptics, Jesus allegedly replies to a question with the terse retort, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” This can hardly be construed as the remark of a person who actually believed they were the incarnate deity.

So where in fact is the authentic portrayal of this enigmatic Jewish personage to be found? I still adhere to my original contention that a more credible depiction of Jesus of Nazareth [a Jewish prophet not a Gentile god] is to be encountered within the Synoptic Gospels [after making due allowance for the distortions of Hellenistic Christian apologetics] rather than within the sophisticated Christological projections of ‘John’ and his community in late 1st century Roman Asia.




ta_mosquito -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/7/2008 7:37:35 PM)

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steve7150 -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/8/2008 3:41:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribblesIf it has such a late date of writing, why is no mention made of the destruction of the temple at 70 AD?
Almost certainly because of the dangerous political situation prevailing for both Jews and Christians, in the late 1st century, especially in Asia. Domitian, the last ruler of the Flavian dynasty, was in power. His father Vespasian and older brother Titus had ruthlessly suppressed the first Jewish revolt (66-71 CE). Jerusalem, along with its temple and cult, had been destroyed. The Jewish national state was abolished and Judaea was now a praetorian province with a legionary garrison





Why would mentioning the destruction of Jerusalem which was an event everyone knew about and something the Romans boasted about put anyone in danger?
Probably this gospel was written in the 60s but after Revelation since in Rev , Jesus isn't called "The Word" until chap 19 and then John opens his gospel with this new understanding.




Denker -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/11/2008 11:01:37 AM)

The fact that the late 1st to early 2nd centuries was a perilous time for both Jews and Christians really goes without saying.

Prior to the first Roman/Jewish war (66-71) Judaism had always been regarded as “religio licita” [lawful religion] by the Roman authorities.

The Jews were seen to be merely pursuing their own, somewhat peculiar, “mos maiorum.” [ancestral customs] However, following the crushing of the revolt and the destruction of Jerusalem anything associated with Judaism [and this included Christianity] was held in very low esteem by the Roman authorities although, strangely, Jewish proselytism [involving circumcision] was itself not banned at this time. Later on in the 2nd century under Hadrian the practice, regarded by Hellenistic/Roman society as a form of bodily mutilation akin to castration, was forbidden, thus becoming a major factor underlying the outbreak of the catastrophic second Roman/Jewish conflict in 132 CE.

When any form of political or social subversion was suspected the Roman State employed all necessary measures in clamping down forcefully on peculiar, secretive, and socially suspicious belief systems. The new cult of Christianity was so regarded by the authorities and thus was designated as “exitiabilis superstitio.” (Tacitus, Annales: XV. 44.) It should be remembered that although Tacitus is here describing the Neronian persecution of the Christians in 64 CE, he was actually writing at a later period during the reign of Trajan (98-117).

In the intervening period, after the destruction of Jerusalem, another serious rebellion (115-16) by Diaspora Jews broke out in Egypt and rapidly spread to both Cyrene and Cyprus. This was only quelled by the prompt dispatch of Quintus Marcius Turbo, one of Trajan’s most experienced military commanders, and a former Praefectus of the Classis Misenensis, against the insurgents.
(Dio Cassius 68: 32. Eusebius H.E. 4:2.)

The prevailing climate of political opinion and social prejudice in the early 2nd century is likewise reflected in Tacitus’ highly biased description of the Jews found in Book 5 of his Histories.

Perhaps the unworldly, mystical, non-political Jesus depicted in John’s Gospel with his violently anti-Jewish sentiments, inflammatory outbursts, and kingdom, “not of this world,” may, in some measure, reflect the tenor of these contemporary anti-Judaic social attitudes.




steve7150 -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/11/2008 1:27:55 PM)

[quote]Perhaps the unworldly, mystical, non-political Jesus depicted in John’s Gospel with his violently anti-Jewish sentiments, inflammatory outbursts, and kingdom, “not of this world,” may, in some measure, reflect the tenor of these contemporary anti-Judaic social attitudes.



That the times were perilous is not debatable but the importance of the destruction of Jerusalem would not be ommitted from any gospel if they were written afterwards. After all Jerusalem is mentioned 800 times in the bible. The Romans were proud of this even minting it on a coin and engraving it in stone columns plus Christians were already persecuted because they believed Jesus was God not Ceaser.
I'm not aware of violently anti-jewish sentiments in John only that salvation is through him not the law.




Denker -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/14/2008 5:26:11 PM)

Posted by steve7150

quote:

Perhaps the unworldly, mystical, non-political Jesus depicted in John’s Gospel with his violently anti-Jewish sentiments, inflammatory outbursts, and kingdom, “not of this world,” may, in some measure, reflect the tenor of these contemporary anti-Judaic social attitudes.

quote:

That the times were perilous is not debatable but the importance of the destruction of Jerusalem would not be ommitted from any gospel if they were written afterwards. After all Jerusalem is mentioned 800 times in the bible.


What you apparently fail to realise is the fear and embarrassment felt by the early Christians after the defeat of the Jewish insurgents and the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. Their eponymous leader, Christ, had been executed, during the reign of Tiberius, for sedition against Rome and many other Jews had suffered a similar fate during the five year long conflict with the forces of Vespasian and Titus. The spoils of the temple were paraded along with Jewish captives [including the rebel leader Simon bar Giora] through the streets of Rome in Vespasian and Titus’ triumphal celebration in 71 CE.

The earliest synoptic gospel, that of Mark, attempts to counter this dangerous situation for Christians living in Rome by distancing them from the rebellious Jews and portraying Jesus as pacific and non-political. The Roman authorities are practically exonerated from responsibility for the crucifixion and blame is transferred instead to the Jewish leaders and their violent, vociferous mob of supporters.

Later gospel writers,notably Matthew, elaborate the scenario and the defamatory declaration, “His blood be on us and our children,” (Matt. 27: 25) put into the mouths of all the assembled [Jewish] people [πας ό λαος] has echoed down the centuries in anti-Semitic prejudice and persecution.

The new Christian cult had broken away completely from Judaism by the close of the 1st century and the earthly Jerusalem temple and its defunct cult no longer held any significance or importance for gentile Christians. Their attention was firmly fixed on the imminent return of Christ to earth and the descent of the heavenly Jerusalem as depicted in the apocalypse of “John.”


quote:

The Romans were proud of this even minting it on a coin and engraving it in stone columns plus Christians were already persecuted because they believed Jesus was God not Ceaser.


Roman coinage with the inscription, ‘Judaea capta,’ was certainly issued to celebrate the victorious conclusion of the war, but I think you are here confusing the triumphal Arch of Titus with the later column of Trajan (98-117 CE). This monument was errected to commemorate the emperor’s campaigns in Dacia (Romania) and provides much valuable information about the Roman imperial army at this period.

The persecution of Christians by the Roman State is an enormous subject in its own right. Suffice to say that it was localised and sporadic at differing periods from the 1st to the 4th century.The principal reason for the secular antipathy towards the new religion was the adamant refusal of its adherents to recognise the authority of the civil powers. It was the contumacia [obstinance] of individual Christians in the face of magisterial coercitio [restraint] that resulted in their condemnation.


quote:

I'm not aware of violently anti-jewish sentiments in John only that salvation is through him not the law.


Have you ever tried setting aside your religious preconceptions for a while, critically read through John’s gospel, and then asked yourself this question, would any actual 1st century Galilean teacher have really addressed his fellow Jews in such a manner as depicted in these scenarios?
Moreover ‘salvation’ [σωτηρια] was conceived in different ways, in different places and at different periods of time in the Hellenistic/Roman world.




steve7150 -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/15/2008 1:44:52 PM)

quote:

What you apparently fail to realise is the fear and embarrassment felt by the early Christians after the defeat of the Jewish insurgents and the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. Their eponymous leader, Christ, had been executed, during the reign of Tiberius, for sedition






Fear and embarrassment by Christians? The whole essence of Christianity is that Christ's death was necessary to lead to his resurrection which Christians rejoice over. And his death and resurrection had been predicted in the OT in Isaiah 53 and other places thus Jewish believers were anything but embarrassed.
The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem was prophecied by Christ in Matt 24,Mark 13 and Luke 21 thus to not mention it IF other parts of the NT were written after 70AD is unthinkable.




Ezra -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/16/2008 1:34:12 AM)

quote:

However, its intensely idiosyncratic portrait of Jesus as a semi-remote cosmic entity is not really very attractive or appealing.


This statement, and everything else in the OP clearly reveals that whoever came up with this analysis of John's Gospel (and it would appear that Denker has quoted this but forgotten to tell us from where) is viewing it in purely humanistic terms, and that too within a theologically liberal view of Scripture and Christ. "A semi-remote cosmic entity" is really quite laughable.

The stamp of Divine inspiration is in every word and verse in this Gospel. John tells us precisely why he wrote it -- that men would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and believing they would have eternal life. Therefore these are words of Spirit and Life.

This Gospel must be read in the light of of the first epistle of John, which tells us that it is God who has given to us the record of eternal life and that this life is in His Son (1 Jn. 5:11). John faithfully recorded what God the Holy Spirit gave to him, just as in the book of Revelation.

All the rest is pure conjecture and that too with a hidden agenda -- to prevent sinners from believing the Gospel and being saved.




Denker -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/17/2008 7:04:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: steve7150

quote:

What you apparently fail to realise is the fear and embarrassment felt by the early Christians after the defeat of the Jewish insurgents and the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. Their eponymous leader, Christ, had been executed, during the reign of Tiberius, for sedition






quote:

Fear and embarrassment by Christians? The whole essence of Christianity is that Christ's death was necessary to lead to his resurrection which Christians rejoice over. And his death and resurrection had been predicted in the OT in Isaiah 53 and other places thus Jewish believers were anything but embarrassed.


Yes in imminent danger and actual fear for their lives, after all, these people were vulnerable human beings, men women and children. Try to imagine the social and political situation prevailing at Rome in 71 CE, for the members of a relatively new, clandestine and commonly despised foreign cult with known Jewish antecedents.

Set aside your modern 21st century notions and just try to imagine what it would have really been like for the small Christian community during the Flavian triumphal celebrations over rebel Judaea. Remember that the systematic persecution of an earlier group of Christians in the imperial capital, by Nero in 64 CE, had taken place merely seven years earlier.

As for the crucifixion of Jesus, (Χριστον εσταυρωμενον) Paul had [earlier] described it as “Іουδαιοις μεν σκανδαλον, εθνεσιν δε μωριαν.” (1st Corinthians 1:23)

Yes it must have imparted some degree of embarassment. Christians were ridiculed as credulous and pliant for worshipping a crucified Jewish sophist and believing themselves to be immortal. The symbol of the cross was rarely encountered in Christian iconography until the early fourth century [following Constantius’ general edict of religious toleration] and artistic representations of the crucifixion (except for satirical graffiti) were produced even later in time.



quote:

The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem was prophecied by Christ in Matt 24,Mark 13 and Luke 21 thus to not mention it IF other parts of the NT were written after 70AD is unthinkable.


Not completely unthinkable, after taking into consideration the contemporary socio/political situation that I have been attempting to outline. Moreover, the inherent probability of praedictio post eventum on the part of the Gospel writers,’ cannot be excluded.




Denker -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/17/2008 7:17:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

However, its intensely idiosyncratic portrait of Jesus as a semi-remote cosmic entity is not really very attractive or appealing.


quote:

This statement, and everything else in the OP clearly reveals that whoever came up with this analysis of John's Gospel (and it would appear that Denker has quoted this but forgotten to tell us from where) is viewing it in purely humanistic terms, and that too within a theologically liberal view of Scripture and Christ. "A semi-remote cosmic entity" is really quite laughable.


Why do you immediately assume that any opinion diverging from your own entrenched viewpoint must of necessity be “quoted” from some extraneous source? I could easily delve into my extensive library and provide a comprehensive list of the works which have helped shape my thinking, regarding these matters, over the past decades but do not consider it necessary at this particular moment. Kindly give some credit to alternative interpretations.

quote:

The stamp of Divine inspiration is in every word and verse in this Gospel. John tells us precisely why he wrote it -- that men would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and believing they would have eternal life. Therefore these are words of Spirit and Life.


How do you know that these are absolute facts? In reality they are nothing more than received traditional opinions and narrow dogmatic theological supposition. The only “fact” is that this text [John’s gospel] exists in the Greek language. The rest is merely interpretation and hypothesis.

quote:

This Gospel must be read in the light of of the first epistle of John, which tells us that it is God who has given to us the record of eternal life and that this life is in His Son (1 Jn. 5:11). John faithfully recorded what God the Holy Spirit gave to him, just as in the book of Revelation.


Why? How can you possibly know that these different works are all from the same hand?

If you read the texts in their original language it would be quite apparent that the author of the apocalypse could not possibly be one and the same person(s) as the writer(s) of the other Johanine works in the NT.

The conflation of authorship is a pious assumption not an established literary fact. Moreover, the coarse Greek style and numerous Semiticisms within the apocalypse of “John,” apart from its totally different social, theological and eschatological stances, are clear indications that it is not from the same author as the other works attributed to “John.”

Leaving aside the possibility, of course, that the writer was able to employ a fortuitous adaptation in style and language as it suited him rather like a novelist.



quote:

All the rest is pure conjecture and that too with a hidden agenda -- to prevent sinners from believing the Gospel and being saved.


Absolute nonsense! Rest assured; I have no “agenda” hidden or otherwise, nor indeed any nefarious intentions. As for “conjecture,” that term can likewise be readily applied to your own personal exegetical opinions.




Ezra -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/17/2008 2:14:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denker
Kindly give some credit to alternative interpretations.


Denker:

Alternative interpretations must always conform to the fact and the truth that the writings of the NT are not mere human productions. "Holy men of God spake [or wrote] as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Pet. 1:21) for the OT writings and "We have a MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY" (2 Pet. 1:19) for the NT writings. If one cannot start with this fundamental premise regarding the Gospel of John, all else is pure conjecture and to be lightly dismissed.

quote:

How do you know that these are absolute facts? In reality they are nothing more than received traditional opinions and narrow dogmatic theological supposition. The only “fact” is that this text [John’s gospel] exists in the Greek language. The rest is merely interpretation and hypothesis.


Since this Gospel has been an integral part of Scripture from the very beginning, and since "All Scripture is theopneustos" (God-breathed or divinely inspired), we can be absolutely certain about these absolute facts. The Gospel of John and his first epistle were written specifically to give us absolute assurance about eternal life. Please go back and read them over again. John iterates and reiterates the facts of the Gospel so that we may have absolute certainty. However, Satan hates to have Christians with absolute certainty, and all doubts about Scripture ultimately come from him. He is the one who first said "Yea, hath God said...?"


quote:

Why? How can you possibly know that these different works are all from the same hand?


The apostle John had close Christian friends and companions who survived him such as Polycarp, and had there been any doubt about the connection of John with his NT writings, we would have known about it through the writings of the post-apostolic "Fathers". Not only that, there is also an internal testimony and witness to John as the writer, although the Author is always the Holy Spirit.

quote:

If you read the texts in their original language it would be quite apparent that the author of the apocalypse could not possibly be one and the same person(s) as the writer(s) of the other Johanine works in the NT.


This is why I said that the interpretation in the OP was humanistic. The humanistic premise is that a writer cannot vary his speech and his style as it suits the subject. The theologically liberal concept is that God is not the Author of Scripture, and therefore His involvement can simply be ignored. But when the Author is God Himself, and the writer is writing according to what God provides, it is more than possible to have a variety of styles and speech. The book of Hebrews is a good example. Although we are not told overtly that Paul is the writer, the connection with Timothy (Heb. 13:23) is the clearest evidence to many that Paul is the writer of this magnificent epistle.

quote:

Absolute nonsense! Rest assured; I have no “agenda” hidden or otherwise, nor indeed any nefarious intentions. As for “conjecture,” that term can likewise be readily applied to your own personal exegetical opinions.


My mention of an "agenda" was not necessarily to be applied to you but to whoever came up with this humanistic analysis of John's Gospel. You seem to be unaware that in the 19th and 20th centuries there was a vigorous movement to discredit the Scriptures by fair means or foul through so-called "critics" who brought in all kinds of theories about Johannine authorship. There was very definitely a hidden agenda - that men would not believe that the Bible is truly the Word of God. There is only one who is behind such an agenda, and his objective is to damn souls to Hell.

If my opinions are "conjecture" perhaps you might want to use Scripture to show us on what grounds they are merely conjecture and opinions. I believe I have stated what conservative Christians have believed all along, and still believe.




Denker -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/18/2008 5:21:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EzraORIGINAL: Denker
Denker:

Alternative interpretations must always conform to the fact and the truth that the writings of the NT are not mere human productions. "Holy men of God spake [or wrote] as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Pet. 1:21) for the OT writings and "We have a MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY" (2 Pet. 1:19) for the NT writings. If one cannot start with this fundamental premise regarding the Gospel of John, all else is pure conjecture and to be lightly dismissed.


Why? The tendentious recitation of dogmatic assertions are no valid substitute for rational argument. Provide some extraneous factual evidence to support your suppositions. Your entrenched subjective viewpoints prove nothing whatsoever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EzraSince this Gospel has been an integral part of Scripture from the very beginning, and since "All Scripture is theopneustos" (God-breathed or divinely inspired), we can be absolutely certain about these absolute facts. The Gospel of John and his first epistle were written specifically to give us absolute assurance about eternal life. Please go back and read them over again. John iterates and reiterates the facts of the Gospel so that we may have absolute certainty. However, Satan hates to have Christians with absolute certainty, and all doubts about Scripture ultimately come from him. He is the one who first said "Yea, hath God said...?"


The “very beginning” of what? Chronological references are required here for clarity. Precise context is also important at this juncture. Whatever you and others, now happen to believe about this admonitory passage in 2nd Timothy 3:16, its original contemporary intent and interpretation was almost certainly totally different. Πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος – yes, but the term γραφη refers to the Septuagint not to Paul’s personal pastoral letters. “Scripture” to Paul and other Hellenistic Jews at this period meant the OT in Greek translation. I cannot recall any instances where Paul ever equates his own writings with the Greek version of the OT scriptures.

Similarly, firm distinction is always maintained between the persons of Jesus Christ and God the Father e.g. [...] αλλα δια Іησου Χριστου και θεου πατρος [...] (Προς Γαλατας 1:1)

There is no conflation of identities here. They are both totally separate from each other.

I must beg to differ from your expressed dicta. There are definitely no “absolute facts” nor “certainties” regarding the exegesis of texts, only inherent probabilities and logical deductions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EzraThe apostle John had close Christian friends and companions who survived him such as Polycarp, and had there been any doubt about the connection of John with his NT writings, we would have known about it through the writings of the post-apostolic "Fathers". Not only that, there is also an internal testimony and witness to John as the writer, although the Author is always the Holy Spirit.


Polycarp [traditionally c.69-c.155 but possibly slightly later] was Bishop of Smyrna in Roman Asia and appears to have been the leading Christian personage in the province during the mid 2nd century. A letter addressed to him by Ignatius of Antioch survives as well as his own epistle to Philippians. He was over 86 years old when martyred at Smyrna by being burnt alive. It may possibly have been from him [there is no conclusive evidence] that Irenaeus received the “traditional tale” regarding the apostolic authorship of the gospel of “John.” Patristic, apologetical assertions regarding matters of historical fact must be treated with extreme caution.

The situation is not really quite as obvious as you would appear to suggest. The popular traditions, current among 2nd century Christians, are not in any way conclusive. Irenaeus, (c.130-c.200) bishop of Lugdunum [in Gaul] states (c.180) in his polemical, anti-Gnostic treatise, “Adversus Omnes Haereses,”[the original Greek version is not extant] that the apostle John lived to a great age in Ephesus and produced the fourth Gospel there. An additional complication is the fact that there seem to have been a number of persons named “John” active in this region. One of these was “John the Elder,”[πρεσβυτερος] a “disciple of the Lord” according to Papias, bishop of Hierapolis in Asia Minor, who died c.130. [quoted by Eusebius in H.E. 3:39 q.v.]

However, no early evidence connects John with Ephesus. He is last mentioned in Acts [8:14] as leading the evangelisation of Samaria in the company of Peter. Paul also characterises him with James, the brother of Jesus and Peter as one of the three pillars [στυλοι] of the Jerusalem church (Galatians 2:9)

In the 1st century, no one attests John’s move to the farther edge of Asia Minor. The martyr bishop Ignatius of Antioch had a perfect opportunity, but singularly failed to do so. In his letter to the members of the church at Ephesus [c.110] he referred to the Ephesians as the people of Paul, without even mentioning the fact that just a few years earlier the great apostle and evangelist John had been residing amongst them! The omission is really rather puzzling.

Eusebius (c.260-c.340) bishop of Caesarea, [and advisor to Constantius] in his “Ecclesiastical History,” while describing the persecutions during the reign of Domitian, says: “There is ample evidence [none of which he specifies] that at that time, the apostle and evangelist John was still alive and because of his testimony to the word of God was sentenced to confinement on the island of Patmos.” [H.E: 3:18 q.v.]

These statements made by Irenaeus and Eusebius, must be evaluated, within the context of their respective, contemporary religious and political backgrounds. Neither of them can be deemed as impartial or inquiring historians– both were early Christian apologists, heresiographers and prominent ecclesiastics with political ambitions within the Church hierarchy of their time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EzraThis is why I said that the interpretation in the OP was humanistic. The humanistic premise is that a writer cannot vary his speech and his style as it suits the subject. The theologically liberal concept is that God is not the Author of Scripture, and therefore His involvement can simply be ignored. But when the Author is God Himself, and the writer is writing according to what God provides, it is more than possible to have a variety of styles and speech. The book of Hebrews is a good example. Although we are not told overtly that Paul is the writer, the connection with Timothy (Heb. 13:23) is the clearest evidence to many that Paul is the writer of this magnificent epistle.


It has been [humorously] remarked that if the NT was in fact “written by God,” then the deity writes in a most indifferent Greek style and even his history is faulty! Again you are merely repeating traditional suppositions concerning the alleged authorship of disparate texts written at various periods, for different contemporary situations and audiences. Most of the documents, except for certain Pauline works, are pseudepigraphic or, in their original manuscript forms, anonymous.

On the basis of internal textual evidence the so called epistle to the Hebrews, with its enhanced Christology, is certainly not of Pauline authorship. Read it in the original Greek and carefully make comparisons with the genuine Pauline epistles. Incidentally, the coda at 13:22-25 seems to bear all the hallmarks of an interpolation, the familiar Pauline exhortative conclusion appearing to have been tacked on to the end of the original letter. The work was known to Clement of Rome [c.96 CE], but not quoted as being Pauline and although accepted early on at Alexandria was not strictly regarded as canonical until the 4th-5th century. [Athanasius festal letter 367 CE]

quote:

ORIGINAL: EzraMy mention of an "agenda" was not necessarily to be applied to you but to whoever came up with this humanistic analysis of John's Gospel. You seem to be unaware that in the 19th and 20th centuries there was a vigorous movement to discredit the Scriptures by fair means or foul through so-called "critics" who brought in all kinds of theories about Johannine authorship.


In point of fact Humanist scholarship reaches right back to the Hellenistic/Roman world through the European Renaissance of the 14th century and the 18th century Enlightenment. I am more-over, very much aware of the valuable contributions to academic studies made by 19th century Liberal and Rationalist German scholars from David Friedrich Strauss (1808-74) onwards.

Your use of the word, “Discredit” is a total misnomer. The more appropriate terminology would be, “To seek a more informed understanding of.” On a comparable level, your own idiosyncratic exegetical stance may itself be readily defined as theoretical or conjectural.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EzraThere was very definitely a hidden agenda - that men would not believe that the Bible is truly the Word of God. There is only one who is behind such an agenda, and his objective is to damn souls to Hell.


Other Christians might opine that it “contains the word of God.” I consider the suggestion of perceived diabolical involvement subversively underlying every proposed alternative idea and interpretation contrary to inflexible, sectarian, dogma as being utterly ridiculous

quote:

ORIGINAL: EzraIf my opinions are "conjecture" perhaps you might want to use Scripture to show us on what grounds they are merely conjecture and opinions. I believe I have stated what conservative Christians have believed all along, and still believe.


You and your fellow conservative Christian adherents are more than welcome to such beliefs. However I, for one, do not in any respect share in or agree with them.




Ezra -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/19/2008 12:37:32 AM)

quote:

You and your fellow conservative Christian adherents are more than welcome to such beliefs. However I, for one, do not in any respect share in or agree with them.


Denker:

Thanks for clarifying your theological position. It is however necessary to point out, that all your objections to the authorship and significance of the Gospel of John have already been weighed in the balances and found wanting.

The apostle John did indeed write this Gospel as Gospel truth, and there is ample testimony to confirm that. Furthermore, his purpose was to bring sinners to salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Gospel of John has been instrumental in doing just that countless times. And this is what will count in eternity.




frankman -> RE: John's Gospel, History or Aretalogy? (8/19/2008 5:27:53 PM)

Apologetics claim the Gospel of John was written by "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (John 21:20). This must have been John the Apostle. There is both external and internal evidence to confirm that this eyewitness Gospel account was indeed written by John, the disciple of Christ.

Externally we have both the John Rylands Fragment and the testimony of the early Church Fathers. The Rylands Fragments argues strongly for a first century origin of the Gospel, since an early second century copy (A.D.177) was found in Egypt. Apologetic E.F.Harrison states "Among the earlist witnesses to Johannine authorship are the ANTI-MARCIONITE PROLOGUS TO JOHN and the MURATORIAN CANON, both in the second half of the second century." Also Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Clement of Alexandria argee that the writer was John the Apostle. They were from the same period of time. Irenaeus testimony is crucial because John`s disciple, Polycarp, was Irenaeus teacher. ---- There was a Alogoi sect around A.D.170, who denied John`s authorship, which turned out to be a fabrication to deny John`s authority in teaching about the Logos (John 1:1+14) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." However they were proven wrong, because external evidence for the Book of John written by John as being the very Word of God was to strong. [sm=s14.gif] Sounds familiar!

Internal evidence is even stronger. The Author of John was an eyewitness to the resurrection and the other events of Jesus` life indicated by the many first person references like in John 20:2 + 21:4. The author was a Jew because he was thoroughly aquainted with the Jewish customs of (a) PURIFICATION (2:6) (b) BURIAL (19:40) (c) FEASTS (5:1) (d) JEWISH ATTITUDES (7:49) The author was also a Palestinian Jew familiar with the geography and topography of the land (2:12, 4:11, 5:2; 18:11; 19:17). All this evidence points to John the apostle of Christ being the author.

Conclusion; The Johannine authorship of the 4th Gospel is important whatever date is assigned to the book, whether the late date of A.D.80-100 traditionally given to it by scholars or the earlier date argued more recently on the basis of comparision with Qumran literature. George Ladd summed up the early view as follows. "Many contemporary scholars now recognize a solid Johannine tradition, independent of the Synoptics, stemming from Palistine and dating from A.D. 30-66." If the early date can be established, then so much better. But even with the late date we have in our possession a historian`s treasure- a firsthand, eyewitness account of the life, teachings, death and resurrection of Christ.




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